Philosophy thread

[Gay Ork Wang]

Originally Posted by someone447

His goals are because he is human...

but why does everyone has different goals?

if u say its in the human nature to have goals. yes okay thats fine.
but not those goals he has, its different for everyone.

if u say its human nature, as long as u are human, you are going to do that. thats not true, there are enough humans that dont do that stuff, thats why everyone of us reacts differently, hell thats the reason why he have this discussion. if it was in the human nature, why would i be against it?

its the same thing like saying: being unemployed is the reason for hating foreigners. it certainly is not. if it was the reason, every person that is unemployed would become a xenophobe. thats not the case. its the ideas and thoughts u derive from unemployement that ultimately are the reason for that, not because u dont have work.

[someone447]

Originally Posted by Addict

ideas are what makes the world go around. One cannot be too idealistic, as long as one does not lose sight of the realisty in which these ideas are to be realised.

I'm a pretty idealistic guy, but I try hard not to forget that some things are pretty hard to change. There's nothing wrong with having ideas. Frankly people without ideas are uninteresting. If nobody thinks of anything new, how is anything ever going to change?

What are you talking about ideas for? I agree that having ideas is what makes change. I am talking about being idealistic, thinking that the ideal can be achieved.

[Gay Ork Wang]

when is an idea idealistic?

[Mr. Hero]

hey renji do you believe that human beings can ever be content? I mean if you gave everyone a new giant plasm TV for each room, a mansion, a maybach, a lifetime supply of food, and ounce of weed a weak, a never ending liquor supply, a winter and summer home with a bunch of crap, would human beings on average be content and just live happily ever after? Because I don't, I think no matter how much people want there will be the desire for more and the only thing stopping people who are content from getting more is the difficulty of acquiring more. That's what I mean by unlimited wants, IMO Man's hunger is infinite, which is why I think it's faulty to think unlimited resources would make men content, you're comparing two infinite values.

[Gay Ork Wang]

Originally Posted by Mr. Hero

hey renji do you believe that human beings can ever be content? I mean if you gave everyone a new giant plasm TV for each room, a mansion, a maybach, a lifetime supply of food, and ounce of weed a weak, a never ending liquor supply, a winter and summer home with a bunch of crap, would human beings on average be content and just live happily ever after? Because I don't, I think no matter how much people want there will be the desire for more and the only thing stopping people who are content from getting more is the difficulty of acquiring more. That's what I mean by unlimited wants, IMO Man's hunger is infinite, which is why I think it's faulty to think unlimited resources would make men content, you're comparing two infinite values.

i think at that point a person is gonna look for something like a hobby. say painting. could his motivation not be to make the best pictures to give away to other people to make them happy? couldnt it just be to make people smile?
i mean there are enough people in the world that dont care about money or materialstic possessions that much. why do we always use the generalization humans?

[someone447]

Originally Posted by *** Ork Wang

why is more food = more power if we are talking about a scenario where there is unlimited food?

your experiment is idiotic though, it doesnt even make sense. doing idiotic things i believe are wrong has nothing do to with power rather than being dumb.

Ok, I misunderstood what you meant. I thought you meant that everyone on earth would have enough to survive, not enough to have as much as they wanted. Unlimited resources would end the notion of greed as we know it, but people will still want more than they need to survive, which is still greed.

It has everything to do with power. If you have no power you are compelled to do whatever anyone tells you. The most basic form of power is that of the power over yourself, after that it is to be able to influence those around you. Humans need some sort of power, not only the first but also the latter. Constantly submitting to the will of others is lacking power.

[Addict]

Originally Posted by Mr. Hero

hey renji do you believe that human beings can ever be content? I mean if you gave everyone a new giant plasm TV for each room, a mansion, a maybach, a lifetime supply of food, and ounce of weed a weak, a never ending liquor supply, a winter and summer home with a bunch of crap, would human beings on average be content and just live happily ever after? Because I don't, I think no matter how much people want there will be the desire for more and the only thing stopping people who are content from getting more is the difficulty of acquiring more. That's what I mean by unlimited wants, IMO Man's hunger is infinite, which is why I think it's faulty to think unlimited resources would make men content, you're comparing two infinite values.

the biggest mistake humanity ever made was believe that we need dumb **** like plasma tv's, cars and other luxuries. We don't need anything like that. But I gotta say good job capitalism for thrusting that idea into our heads.

[someone447]

Originally Posted by *** Ork Wang

i think at that point a person is gonna look for something like a hobby. say painting. could his motivation not be to make the best pictures to give away to other people to make them happy? couldnt it just be to make people smile?
i mean there are enough people in the world that dont care about money or materialstic possessions that much. why do we always use the generalization humans?

No, it couldn't just be to make others smile. His motivation is the benefit he gets from making that person smile, not the other person smiling.

We generalize humans because they are easy to generalize, and are typically right. Of course not everyone is exactly the same, but they are pretty damn close. It is possible to overcome nature, thats what the rational part of our brain attempts to do. But it isn't possible to overcome nature every step of the way.

[someone447]

Originally Posted by Addict

the biggest mistake humanity ever made was believe that we need dumb **** like plasma tv's, cars and other luxuries. We don't need anything like that. But I gotta say good job capitalism for thrusting that idea into our heads.

See, you are getting it backwards. The invention of those things are what has caused capitalism to turn us materialistic. Inventions that make our life easier or gives us distractions far predates capitalism, capitalism has only allowed a larger percentage of a given population to get their hands on things that make life easier and to distract us from boredom.

We don't NEED anything but food, shelter, and companionship.

[Gay Ork Wang]

Originally Posted by someone447

Ok, I misunderstood what you meant. I thought you meant that everyone on earth would have enough to survive, not enough to have as much as they wanted. Unlimited resources would end the notion of greed as we know it, but people will still want more than they need to survive, which is still greed.

It has everything to do with power. If you have no power you are compelled to do whatever anyone tells you. The most basic form of power is that of the power over yourself, after that it is to be able to influence those around you. Humans need some sort of power, not only the first but also the latter. Constantly submitting to the will of others is lacking power.

In my estimation, greed is always something trying to hurt someone else. why do i need to hurt someone else?


The one mistake i see hear in the thinking of humans is, that if u have to submit to someones will, it means u see that there is something wrong with it. u have to make clear to him what is wrong with his idea. there is no need for anyone to force someone to do something, its way easier to convince people and try to achieve to do the right thing for example.

[Mr. Hero]

Originally Posted by *** Ork Wang

i think at that point a person is gonna look for something like a hobby. say painting. could his motivation not be to make the best pictures to give away to other people to make them happy? couldnt it just be to make people smile?
i mean there are enough people in the world that dont care about money or materialstic possessions that much. why do we always use the generalization humans?

Sure there are some people who will be fairly content but by and large do you think that would be the case? I mean if we think most will just pick up hobbies won't their desire to excel in those hobbies create a form of greed that will make them not content?

Originally Posted by Addict

the biggest mistake humanity ever made was believe that we need dumb **** like plasma tv's, cars and other luxuries. We don't need anything like that. But I gotta say good job capitalism for thrusting that idea into our heads.

I agree same with stupid things like plans, trains, skyscrapers, modern medicine, etc...technology is a journey, every step is important and without the development of luxuries for profit you'd have far less developed technologies. I mean without that concept we wouldn't be communicating right now.

[someone447]

Originally Posted by *** Ork Wang

In my estimation, greed is always something trying to hurt someone else. why do i need to hurt someone else?


The one mistake i see hear in the thinking of humans is, that if u have to submit to someones will, it means u see that there is something wrong with it. u have to make clear to him what is wrong with his idea. there is no need for anyone to force someone to do something, its way easier to convince people and try to achieve to do the right thing for example.

That isn't what greed is... You are arguing a notion that exists only in your own head.

Greed
Pronunciation:
\ˈgrēd\
Function:
noun
Etymology:
back-formation from greedy
Date:
1609

: a selfish and excessive desire for more of something (as money) than is needed

Greed has nothing to do with hurting someone else to get your way, it is only the want of more than is needed.

It is much easier to force someone to submit to your way, people rarely change their minds about things they believe in. There is a reason conservatives watch Fox News and liberals watch MSNBC, and that is because your brain rewards you for finding things that agree with your own viewpoints and punishes you for finding things that disagree.

[Gay Ork Wang]

okay, but why do i need more than i need?

i agree, its the way it is right now. but is it good? is it smart? isnt it better to discuss to agree upon something that both can agree on or to establish the one thing that is right.

[Mr. Hero]

Originally Posted by *** Ork Wang

okay, but why do i need more than i need?

i agree, its the way it is right now. but is it good? is it smart? isnt it better to discuss to agree upon something that both can agree on or to establish the one thing that is right.

Because all you "need" is food, shelter, a ho and some friends. If we want back to only what we need we'd be a third world country.

[someone447]

Originally Posted by *** Ork Wang

okay, but why do i need more than i need?

i agree, its the way it is right now. but is it good? is it smart? isnt it better to discuss to agree upon something that both can agree on or to establish the one thing that is right.

That is the way it has always been... That is the way it is in the animal kingdom. This isn't a human construct. Why do the alpha males in a pack of wolves need every female? They don't, but they want it so they take it.

[Gay Ork Wang]

Originally Posted by Mr. Hero

Because all you "need" is food, shelter, a ho and some friends. If we want back to only what we need we'd be a third world country.

well there is the need to satisfy ur boredem for example. but there i dont see why u need say 5 working computers if u can only handle one at a time

[someone447]

Originally Posted by Mr. Hero

Because all you "need" is food, shelter, a ho and some friends. If we want back to only what we need we'd be a third world country.

Exactly, what I find quite funny about this conversation is that in less than a month I will be living what *** Ork is advocating. I am going hitchhiking with a friend for the summer with a backpack of clothes and MAYBE 50 dollars. She has a tent, her clothes, and MAYBE 50 dollars.

*** Ork, you are advocating living with only the bare necessities, so quit arguing for it and go out and live it. When you come back see if thats still how you think life should be.

[Addict]

Originally Posted by Mr. Hero

I agree same with stupid things like plans, trains, skyscrapers, modern medicine, etc...technology is a journey, every step is important and without the development of luxuries for profit you'd have far less developed technologies. I mean without that concept we wouldn't be communicating right now.

new things are invented all the time, since humans are naturally inventive. It has very little to do with the profit system.

[Gay Ork Wang]

Originally Posted by someone447

That is the way it has always been... That is the way it is in the animal kingdom. This isn't a human construct. Why do the alpha males in a pack of wolves need every female? They don't, but they want it so they take it.

1. just because it always has been, does it mean it never will be? just because we didnt walk on moon for millions of years, did it mean we never would?

2. there is a difference between humans and animals isnt there?

[someone447]

Originally Posted by *** Ork Wang

well there is the need to satisfy ur boredem for example. but there i dont see why u need say 5 working computers if u can only handle one at a time

I have two working computers, but they are for different things. My desktop is used just about only for games, while my laptop is used for everything else. Obviously I could make due with only one, or even without any at all, but having two makes my life much, much, much easier.

[Gay Ork Wang]

Originally Posted by someone447

Exactly, what I find quite funny about this conversation is that in less than a month I will be living what *** Ork is advocating. I am going hitchhiking with a friend for the summer with a backpack of clothes and MAYBE 50 dollars. She has a tent, her clothes, and MAYBE 50 dollars.

*** Ork, you are advocating living with only the bear necessities, so quit arguing for it and go out and live it. When you come back see if thats still how you think life should be.

i do not by no means advocat that. you must misunderstand my point

[Mr. Hero]

Originally Posted by *** Ork Wang

well there is the need to satisfy ur boredem for example. but there i dont see why u need say 5 working computers if u can only handle one at a time

that's what you've got your ho and friends for, to handle boredom. If we're talking purely on a basis of need that's all you need to beat boredom. Now if you're going to acknowledge that man needs more interactive or extensive means to combating boredom you're leaving the basic needs and moving into an area where you're talking about luxuries, and if you're going to accept one luxury it is hypocritical to argue against other luxuries. Luxury is excess, thus luxuries get abused and man's innate hunger for more takes hold.

[Gay Ork Wang]

Originally Posted by someone447

I have two working computers, but they are for different things. My desktop is used just about only for games, while my laptop is used for everything else. Obviously I could make due with only one, or even without any at all, but having two makes my life much, much, much easier.

then thats what u need. its not more than what you need. so ur not being greedy :/

[someone447]

Originally Posted by *** Ork Wang

1. just because it always has been, does it mean it never will be? just because we didnt walk on moon for millions of years, did it mean we never would?

2. there is a difference between humans and animals isnt there?

1. Technology is completely different than changing basic human nature.

2. Not really, we are just the smartest animal alive today. Had we lived during the time of the dinosaurs, it is likely we would not rule the world like we do now. We are just the dinosaurs of our age, the animals on the top of the world.

[Gay Ork Wang]

im out, ill be back in a couple of hours continue discussing ;)