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View Poll Results: Who is your favorite philosopher(s)?
Ancient Philosophy (Aristotle, Plato) 13 19.40%
Scholasticism (St. Thomas Aquinas) 3 4.48%
Renaissance Humanism (Thomas More, Erasmus) 1 1.49%
Rationalism (Descartes, Voltaire, Kant) 18 26.87%
Empiricism, Social Contract (John Locke, David Hume) 11 16.42%
Social Materialism/Marxism (Karl Marx, Hegel) 6 8.96%
Existentialism (Kafka, Nietzsche) 7 10.45%
Post-Moderism/Structuralism (Derrida, Foucault, Nietzsche) 5 7.46%
Analytical Philosophy (Bertrand Russell, Wittgenstein) 1 1.49%
Structuralism (Levi-Strauss, Ferdinand de Saussure, Chomsky) 2 2.99%
Voters: 67. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 05-04-2009, 06:26 PM    (permalink
Gay Ork Wang
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Originally Posted by Mr. Hero View Post
The stick isn't necessary because there are alternatives, the absolute that is needed isn't the stick, but the entertainment. What matters isn't that 4+4=8 or that 3+5=8, what matters is getting to 8, so 8 is the need, other numbers are just a means towards filling that need. Thus it is with the stick, it's just a means to the end, the end is what is needed, not the means.
obviously, but ull never get to the end without means. The means are necessary

but i am kinda confused right now, what standpoint are u guys defending atm?
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Old 05-04-2009, 06:26 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by TitleTown088 View Post
I'm not sure how much of a true philosopher Augustine of Hippo is considered as compared to theologian, but he's one of my favorite intellectuals to read by far.

Many of the ancient Monks are usually my favorites. Gotta love Bacon.
I'm not sure what a 'true philosopher' is, but I think any theologian can be considered a philosopher, particularly in the Middle Ages when there was no distinction.
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Old 05-04-2009, 06:27 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Manic Depressant View Post
At what point did humans start linking money to status? That link has existed since mankind itself existed
Really? Prove it.
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Old 05-04-2009, 06:44 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Gay Ork Wang View Post
i dont understand the idea that it is human nature but we can fight against it. if its human nature its something thats absolute. if there are people who dont use it, it cant be human nature
Nothing is absolute(and yes, I realize the inherent contradiction in saying that. Our rationality is what allows us to attempt to overcome our animal instincts, obviously, it isn't always successful.
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Old 05-04-2009, 06:48 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by bearsfan_51 View Post
Really? Prove it.
I did already, if you accept that possessions were the ancient equivalent of money(or that money is just a possession.)
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Old 05-04-2009, 06:48 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Gay Ork Wang View Post
obviously, but ull never get to the end without means. The means are necessary

but i am kinda confused right now, what standpoint are u guys defending atm?
That computers etc are not needs in the sense we are talking about, they are luxuries.
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Old 05-04-2009, 06:51 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by The Unseen View Post
He just used a different definition, so it does exist. It's a different semantic perimeter than yours, but it's a word with meaning nonetheless.
Greed does not imply harming someone else by any definition but his, that isn't the meaning of the word greed in the English language. You can't argue something based on your own personal definition.

Same with needs, you can't say that a computer is NEEDED to survive, which is what we have been arguing about. He is bringing in definitions that do not belong to the words he is using.
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Old 05-04-2009, 06:53 PM    (permalink
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u need a computer to make life easier :/
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Old 05-04-2009, 06:54 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Gay Ork Wang View Post
u need a computer to make life easier :/
No, you would like a computer because it makes life easier. You in no way need it. Billions upon billions of people have lived their lives without computers. It is not a need.

How about you just agree that you are using an incorrect word for your argument so we can stop arguing semantics. While I don't agree with your views on mankind, and quite frankly find them a little naive, they are legitimate arguments that have been made for an incredibly long time.
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Old 05-04-2009, 06:55 PM    (permalink
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if u want to make life easier, u need a pc.

are u disagreeing with that?

im not saying he needs a computer to survive
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Old 05-04-2009, 06:56 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by someone447 View Post
Greed does not imply harming someone else by any definition but his, that isn't the meaning of the word greed in the English language. You can't argue something based on your own personal definition.

Same with needs, you can't say that a computer is NEEDED to survive, which is what we have been arguing about. He is bringing in definitions that do not belong to the words he is using.
Actually, you can, as long as it is understood. There's nothing logically different from millions of people with different words for different meanings than English, such as Italian, than one person with different words for different meanings, such as Gay Ork Wangian English.

I'm not arguing for or against his position - he may in fact be working with the same word definition as you. I'm arguing that a dictionary or majority use of a word does not hold exclusive claim over how others use it.
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Old 05-04-2009, 07:02 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Gay Ork Wang View Post
if u want to make life easier, u need a pc.

are u disagreeing with that?

im not saying he needs a computer to survive
Yes, I am disagreeing with that. There are thousands of inventions that make life easier, you can choose any one of them. I would LIKE a computer because it makes life easier. I do not need a computer. You are falling into the same trap you so condemned. You say greed and materialism is bad, yet you "need" a computer. That is greed, wanting anything above the basics needed for survival is greed.
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Old 05-04-2009, 07:05 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by The Unseen View Post
Actually, you can, as long as it is understood. There's nothing logically different from millions of people with different words for different meanings than English, such as Italian, than one person with different words for different meanings, such as Gay Ork Wangian English.

I'm not arguing for or against his position - he may in fact be working with the same word definition as you. I'm arguing that a dictionary or majority use of a word does not hold exclusive claim over how others use it.
Language is a series of words with commonly agreed upon meanings, when you start creating your own meaning for words you cease to use the language. We are all speaking English while he is speaking "Gay Ork Wangian English," it is impossible to have a discussion when one person refuses to use the words of the language being spoken.

The sky is red. Tell me it isn't.

By the way, in someonian red means what the sky is.
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Old 05-04-2009, 07:07 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Gay Ork Wang View Post
obviously, but ull never get to the end without means. The means are necessary

but i am kinda confused right now, what standpoint are u guys defending atm?
The specific means are not necessary, only that you have someway to get to the ends. If the end is entertainment, it doesn't matter if the means are a computer, a stick, or a friend. They all do the same thing, which is entertain you.
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Old 05-04-2009, 07:09 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by someone447 View Post
Yes, I am disagreeing with that. There are thousands of inventions that make life easier, you can choose any one of them. I would LIKE a computer because it makes life easier. I do not need a computer. You are falling into the same trap you so condemned. You say greed and materialism is bad, yet you "need" a computer. That is greed, wanting anything above the basics needed for survival is greed.
okay that was kind of bad.

but i still dont understand it. we need entertainment. thats what we agree upon? so why are the means to reach entertainment already too much?
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Old 05-04-2009, 07:12 PM    (permalink
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okay that was kind of bad.

but i still dont understand it. we need entertainment. thats what we agree upon? so why are the means to reach entertainment already too much?
You are the only person that is saying greed is bad. No one is saying that a computer is too much, rather that it is just not a need, and that even if everyone in the world had their basic needs people would still want more(which is greed.)

This whole conversation started as a way to show you that greed isn't bad and isn't ruining mankind. We tried to get it down to the basic needs for survival in order to show you that even if everyone met those basic needs people would still be greedy.

All of this was an attempt to find common ground so I could know where I needed to start my argument from, without finding common ground it is impossible to get the other person to see your side of the argument, which is why theists and atheists can't have real debates. They can't find any common ground in their beliefs save "we exist."

So, do you accept that for survival we need ONLY food, shelter, sex, companionship, and entertainment? That is all I am asking. That those are the most basic needs, we can get to the rest of them later.
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Old 05-04-2009, 07:13 PM    (permalink
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u need a computer to make life easier :/
Technology has actually helped in "ruining" our world. Civilization has created many problems that wouldn't be present if we were all still nomads. As a nomad, all we would be worried about is survival, as in obtaining food, water, shelter, but now we're worried about survival in a different sense. Now, our livelihood depends on many factors and our survival depends just as much on education, social involvement as it does the basic necessities.
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Old 05-04-2009, 07:13 PM    (permalink
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im not saying it is bad. i dont get the idea of wanting more than u need
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Old 05-04-2009, 07:14 PM    (permalink
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Language is a series of words with commonly agreed upon meanings, when you start creating your own meaning for words you cease to use the language. We are all speaking English while he is speaking "Gay Ork Wangian English," it is impossible to have a discussion when one person refuses to use the words of the language being spoken.

The sky is red. Tell me it isn't.

By the way, in someonian red means what the sky is.
Yes, you cease to use that language. The standard English language. The solution is rectified by speaking the same language. So you are correct - it is impossible to have a discussion.

All I'm saying is that it's not wrong to use a new definition at all, discussion or no, which is what I believe you were saying originally. But you're right - a discussion needs to be in the same language to be meaningful. So we agree there.
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Old 05-04-2009, 07:14 PM    (permalink
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Technology has actually helped in "ruining" our world. Civilization has created many problems that wouldn't be present if we were all still nomads. As a nomad, all we would be worried about is survival, as in obtaining food, water, shelter, but now we're worried about survival in a different sense. Now, our livelihood depends on many factors and our survival depends just as much on education, social involvement as it does the basic necessities.
yea scrap that, wrong use of words
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Old 05-04-2009, 07:16 PM    (permalink
someone447
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Yes, you cease to use that language. The standard English language. The solution is rectified by speaking the same language. So you are correct - it is impossible to have a discussion.

All I'm saying is that it's not wrong to use a new definition at all, discussion or no, which is what I believe you were saying originally. But you're right - a discussion needs to be in the same language to be meaningful. So we agree there.
That is what I was saying all along, Shakespeare made up a ton of words in his plays, but we are having a debate, and with that you can't just make up definitions to existing words.
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Old 05-04-2009, 07:19 PM    (permalink
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im not saying it is bad. i dont get the idea of wanting more than u need
You say you "need" a computer for entertainment. I "need" 50 cars and 1000 slaves for entertainment. What's the difference?
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Old 05-04-2009, 07:21 PM    (permalink
Gay Ork Wang
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You say you "need" a computer for entertainment. I "need" 50 cars and 1000 slaves for entertainment. What's the difference?
yea that was wrong wordage lol, kinda understood what someone447 meant there what i did wrong. but that doesnt mean that in order to get entertained there are different ways. doenst mean u want to much if ur ultimate goal is entertainment which is a need
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Old 05-04-2009, 07:21 PM    (permalink
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I did already, if you accept that possessions were the ancient equivalent of money(or that money is just a possession.)
So, the possession of things has been a way of ranking status since "the beginning of mankind?"

Got it.

Ok, prove it.
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Old 05-04-2009, 07:22 PM    (permalink
someone447
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im not saying it is bad. i dont get the idea of wanting more than u need
You obviously do if you want a computer. You do not NEED the computer.

I think what you are arguing against is American materialism, the type of materialism that came about in the 1950s. The "keeping up with the Joneses" mentality. If thats the case I agree with you 100%. I don't understand that lifestyle, it has just never appealed to me.
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