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Old 07-14-2009, 09:15 AM    (permalink
wonderbredd24
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When people are posting Jim Kelly and Warren Moon's numbers, are they including their numbers from the Canadian Football League for Moon and the USFL for Kelly?

Especially for Moon, it makes a huge difference.

McNabb, to me, is a very good QB, but he's not a hall of fame QB. And I think Steve McNair is in the same boat... but McNair in my opinion was better than McNabb

Hall of Fame QBs currently playing include Brady, Manning, and Warner
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Old 07-14-2009, 09:35 AM    (permalink
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no it doesnt. This is the NFL not the CFL or USFL
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Old 07-14-2009, 10:00 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by *** Ork Wang View Post
no it doesnt. This is the NFL not the CFL or USFL
It's the Pro Football Hall of Fame
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Old 07-14-2009, 10:35 AM    (permalink
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It's the Pro Football Hall of Fame
yes for the NFL. No one cares what Milt Stegal is doing at the CFL. Dont kid yourself. It also says World Champions although its only in America.
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Old 07-14-2009, 10:42 AM    (permalink
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McNabb has been a relatively consistent regular season winner, but his performance in big time games has been poor. Until he makes the Super Bowl 2 more times and wins 1, he has no shot of making the HOF. He has been a great franchise player for the Eagles, but his lack of winning in the clutch will haunt his legacy.
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Old 07-14-2009, 11:42 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Thumper View Post
Lol you have to be kidding. Look at the stats buddy, McNabb will smash Simms numbers.

Phil Simms- 14 seasons
33,462 career passing yards
199 Touchdown Passes
157 interceptions
sacked 477 times
349 rushing attempts
1,252 rushing yards and 6 touchdowns

Donovan McNabb- 10 seasons
29,320 passing yards
194 touchdown passes
90 interceptions
sacked 322 times
536 rushing attempts
3,109 rushing yards and 26 touchdowns

All that in 4 less seasons. Yeah, Phil Simms is a shoe in if McNabb makes it in! Sorry thats wrong and I wish that thing didn't have a smiley face.

I'd take Simms any day over McNabb. McNabb isn't a big game QB, and you're going to put him in the HOF??! HAHAHA Stop stat throwing and watch these games. He is a good QB, but HOFer. Hell no! What has McNabb done? Win a big game, and win a superbowl, and then we will talk. 3 ints and 3 Tds in the superbowl isn't going to cut it. Not to mention he is not the smartest QB out there. McNabb had poor clock management on that final drive of the superbowl, and looked completely winded. Not to mention that overtime rule, where he didn't know it ended with a tie. Another time he lined up under guard! UNDER GUARD, not under center! I have picture somewhere on my computer. He is what he is, and that's a good QB. He is no even close to a hall of famer. If there was a Hall of very good, he'd be in there, I have no issue with that. I respect him as a QB, but like I said if McNabb gets in, then Simms should be ahead of him, of nothing, based on being a big game qb, and having superbowl rings.

Not only that you can't compare two different QBs in different eras anyways.

He may have done well statistically, but when it comes to a big game, he is last on the list I will take as a QB.
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Old 07-14-2009, 12:22 PM    (permalink
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Simms 2
McNabb 0

Simms = Winner
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Old 07-14-2009, 12:24 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Malaka View Post
Simms 2
McNabb 0

Simms = Winner
Trent Dilfer 1
Dan Marino 0

Trent Dilfer=Winner?

Simms wouldn't have even come close if he had ridiculously ****** WRs like McNabb has had.
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Old 07-14-2009, 12:28 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Sniper View Post
Trent Dilfer 1
Dan Marino 0

Trent Dilfer=Winner?

Simms wouldn't have even come close if he had ridiculously ****** WRs like McNabb has had.
Simms didn't have studs by any means. We had McConkey, and other guys, but Bavaro was the true stud, who I always thought was sick, and one of the best TEs. But again you are comparing two different QBs in 2 different eras.

And there stats are comparable, Dilfer and Marino aren't so let's not get carried away here.
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Old 07-14-2009, 12:34 PM    (permalink
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Simms didn't have studs by any means. We had McConkey, and other guys, but Bavaro was the true stud, who I always thought was sick, and one of the best TEs. But again you are comparing two different QBs in 2 different eras.
And I bet that you'd still take McConkey, Bavaro and company over Fredex, Lost It In The Lights, Trash and the plethora of **** that Donovan's had. Don't you find it slightly ironic that he made it to within 3 points of a SB win during the lone year where had a legitimate #1 target?

Quote:
And there stats are comparable, Dilfer and Marino aren't so let's not get carried away here.
While their stats are comparable, Malaka's point was that Simms was automatically better due to his two SB wins. It's the same thing we go through when we debate Brady vs. Manning. While I'm a Brady fan, his rings edge isn't the be-all, end-all of debatable points. That is, unless you think Terry Bradshaw's the greatest QB ever.
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Old 07-14-2009, 12:39 PM    (permalink
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And I bet that you'd still take McConkey, Bavaro and company over Fredex, Lost It In The Lights, Trash and the plethora of **** that Donovan's had.



While their stats are comparable, Malaka's point was that Simms was automatically better due to his two SB wins. It's the same thing we go through when we debate Brady vs. Manning. While I'm a Brady fan, his rings edge isn't the be-all, end-all of debatable points. That is, unless you think Terry Bradshaw's the greatest QB ever.

Well I always liked McConkey, but these guys weren't good in the traditional sense. They played much harder and higher than their talent level. Think of Rudy of ND. Kind of like those type of guys we had back then. We had no superstars.

We did have good RBs, but Westbrook I'd consider better than the ones we had from what I can remember. I was 5 and 10 years old when we won the 2 superbowls.

Yeah well superbowls don't automatically mean you make it, but i think of it as a huge bonus. So if your stats are close or somehow comparable that superbowl puts you over the top.

No, I get your point, but my point was to the other eagles fan who thought it would be crazy to take Simms over McNabb in the hall of fame. As if I advocated Dilfer over Marino. Simms and McNabb have similar stats, and Simms was a big game player, who has 2 rings, and set a superbowl record, and playoff record. He was also a superbowl MVP too. I don't think it's crazy to say if McNabb got in, that Simms should be before him.
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Old 07-14-2009, 12:41 PM    (permalink
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No matter what you say about it, McNabb has had 1 good big game (2004 vs. Atlanta), 2 okay big games (2001 vs. St. Louis + last year vs. Arizona), and 3 crappy big games (2002 vs. Tampa, 2003 vs. Carolina, and 2004 vs. NE). His record in big games is 1-5. He has shown poor clock management, poor decision making, and poor accuracy at times in the losses. Gamers rise above in big spots. McNabb gets the team there, but he hasn't been able to rise above. Period. I love the guy, but his record in the spotlight is clear.
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Old 07-14-2009, 12:47 PM    (permalink
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T.O was better than any receiver Simms had, and McNabb also choked in that game in 04'. Bavaro was the only great receiver he had and he was a TE, McConkey was decent but it was more due to his hustle than anything else.

Trent Dilfer and Marino are not even close statistically McNabb and Simms are. So don't give me the whole Dilfer>Marino? crapola.

The Giants back then won because of their defense, and the fact Simms manage to lead the team in the playoffs. McNabb has so far proved unable to do this.
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Old 07-14-2009, 12:57 PM    (permalink
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I respect McNabb as a player even though he is on a division rival, but I just don't think he is a hall of famer. He is a damn good player though.

When I think of him I think of a great player when alot of side issues. Clock Management issues, throwing up on the field, being douche ( going to the Giants bench and picking up the phone to make a call), lining up being the guard instead of the center, and then not knowing the overtime rules. Didn't his mom start making head lines with her damn blogs too???

He also isn't a big game qb. He still is a great player, but when you think of HOF qbs, for the most part, McNabb doesn't come to mind. I think I like him more than alot of the Eagles fans do. I have respect for a guy who can play in front of a fan base that seems to kill him at some point every year.

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Old 07-14-2009, 01:28 PM    (permalink
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Andy Reid is a Fat **** (FF) Looooossssseeeerrrr
McNabb is a Fat choker overthrowing unnecessarily hard passer with the accuracy of a one eyed autistic man and has the intelligence and decision making skills of a dirty pair of socks.



I'm an Eagles fan.
Isn't this pathetic?
I've loved this team for so long and followed them for so long knowing every player, size of player(no ****), and history and college of the players on this team.
For so long now I've cared to much and I'm always let down and dissapointed and crushed with this team.. And I relize How dumb Lurie is, how annoying Reid is (who could have been somebody if he didn't have a stupid pass pass pass mentality) and how much of a overated asshole McNabb is

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Old 07-14-2009, 06:29 PM    (permalink
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And there stats are comparable, Dilfer and Marino aren't so let's not get carried away here.
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Originally Posted by Malaka
Trent Dilfer and Marino are not even close statistically McNabb and Simms are. So don't give me the whole Dilfer>Marino? crapola.
So stats matter, but only when it benefits your argument? McNabb and Simm's stats will not be close when McNabb is on his 14th season (assuming he plays that long).

To me, Phil Simms was a great QB. But McNabb is an even better QB. It's kind of a shame that he might actually miss the HoF because of his lack of rings.

(note: not advocating that McNabb is already HoF material. But if his resume continues on the track, I can't see how you would keep this guy out.)
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Old 07-14-2009, 06:34 PM    (permalink
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If McNabb manages to win a ring, I don't see any reason why he shoulnd't be in the HoF, to be honest. If he doesn't... I doubt he'll get in.
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Old 07-14-2009, 07:10 PM    (permalink
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So stats matter, but only when it benefits your argument? McNabb and Simm's stats will not be close when McNabb is on his 14th season (assuming he plays that long).

To me, Phil Simms was a great QB. But McNabb is an even better QB. It's kind of a shame that he might actually miss the HoF because of his lack of rings.

(note: not advocating that McNabb is already HoF material. But if his resume continues on the track, I can't see how you would keep this guy out.)
exactly like I said earlier It's entirely possible for him if all he does is average his career stats to have 40,000+ pass yds 270+ TD/ 3600 rush yds 35TD when its all said and done or more if indeed he stays healthy.

For all you keeping track he will likely have 45,000+ all purpose yards and will have more than 300 total touchdowns. Those are HOF numbers that are more than Troy Aikman, Joe Namath (who sucked if you look at his stats), Steve Young, Terry Bradshaw, Roger Staubach, Joe Montana, Johnny Unitas, Bob Griese, Dan Fouts. He will also finish with better stats than Tom Brady.

Donovan McNabb is one of the best of this generation, has led one of the best teams of this decade, is statistically a top 5 QB of this decade, led his team to 5 NFC Championship games, 1 superbowl, has the 3rd best all time TD/INT ratio, he best all time in interception %, he is also the third winningest QB in the NFL today. If he gets a ring, he is a lock IMO. McNabb belongs.

McNabb will likely finish in the top 15 for passing yards all-time if not higher (#15 is Jim Kelly with 35,467), he is only 21 TD passes from cracking the top 20 list in that category and he should finish in the top 10, He will break into the top 20 in completions by the end of this season, he is already a top 15 all-time QB ratings wise and he is already a top 7 rushing QB. McNabb should and will go into the HOF.
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Old 07-14-2009, 07:32 PM    (permalink
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Ok its about time I commented again on this thread



SHUT UP AKBAR!

I've quoted this post a few times and no one has really addressed it of those who think McNabb is a HOF QB.

Quote:
Originally Posted by broth223 View Post
Not stupid at all

How many Hall of fame QB's in the modern era are lacking BOTH a league MVP AND a Super Bowl win (or pre super bowl equivilent) answer 3

Player Super Bowl? MVP?
TROY AIKMAN Yes NO
GEORGE BLANDA Yes NO* (not applicable for the first half of his career)
TERRY BRADSHAW Yes Yes
LEN DAWSON Yes Yes
JOHN ELWAY Yes Yes
OTTO GRAHAM Yes N/A
BOB GRIESE Yes No* (I'm only counting AP MVP he was NEA MVP)
SONNY JURGENSEN No No (May be the best arguement for McNabb)
JIM KELLY No No (went to 4 back to back SB's)
BOBBY LAYNE Yes N/A
DAN MARINO No Yes
JOE MONTANA Yes Yes
WARREN MOON No No (9 time Pro bowl)
JOE NAMATH Yes No
BART STARR Yes Yes
FRAN TARKENTON Yes Yes
Y.A. TITTLE No Yes
NORM VAN BROCKLIN Yes N/A
STEVE YOUNG Yes Yes
EDIT JOHNNY UNITAS Yes Yes
ROGER STAUBACH Yes No?



Donovan McNabb No No
But OK there are still three QBs in the modern era with no MVP and no SB so the next logical question is do these three hold any accolades that McNabb doesn't. If not than McNabb should go to the hall of fame.

WARREN MOON
SONNY JURGENSEN
JIM KELLY

So next we gotta look at pro bowls I guess next highest accolade behind super bowl champ and MVP (well I guess it would be OPY but I'm not looking that up)


WARREN MOON 9
SONNY JURGENSEN 5
JIM KELLY 5
McNabb 5

So OK we don't need to talk about Warren Moon anymore but there are still two more QBs.

So if you can't win the SB and you can't win OPY, and you can't go to the pro bowl what would you want next? League leader in passing yards I guess.

SONNY JURGENSEN 3
JIM KELLY 1
McNabb 0 (I'm going to assume tjsunstein's right on this one)

so the way I see it is if McNabb made it to the hall he would be the worst QB to make it. If McNabb's never been in the top 5 in passing yards ever in his career I can't see calling him one of the greatest of all time. But that is just broth hatein again.
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oh please. as if canadians even know what beer is.
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Old 07-14-2009, 07:33 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Addict View Post
If McNabb manages to win a ring, I don't see any reason why he shoulnd't be in the HoF, to be honest. If he doesn't... I doubt he'll get in.
While QBs have more impact than most other positions in professional team sports on a game's outcome. I think it would be a little unfair to keep him out simply for a lack of a ring.

Yeah, guys like Dilfer have one, but they didn't win the superbowl for their team, their team won it as a unit and the Eagles didn't lose that superbowl because of McNabb, they lost as a team.
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Old 07-14-2009, 07:49 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by broth223 View Post
so the way I see it is if McNabb made it to the hall he would be the worst QB to make it. If McNabb's never been in the top 5 in passing yards ever in his career I can't see calling him one of the greatest of all time. But that is just broth hatein again.
You bring up interesting points (all of which I saw earlier in the thread). However, I think it's a little bit of a stretch to call him the worst QB to go into the HoF just because he didn't lead the league in passing yards. There is like 20 different variables that go into that stat (for example: did the defense struggle to get off the field? Did his RB have a lot of carries? Does he tuck the ball and run with it often? Was he a contender for passing yards before an injury ever?).

Edit: I should clarify, you actually called him the worst QB to go into the HoF (assuming he makes it) for multiple reasons, not just passing yards. however, my point was to refute the fact that leading the league in passing yards should even matter.
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Old 07-14-2009, 07:55 PM    (permalink
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Broth, stats are not a problem:
Quote:
It's entirely possible for him if all he does is average his career stats to have 40,000+ pass yds 270+ TD/ 3600 rush yds 35TD when its all said and done or more if indeed he stays healthy.

McNabb will likely finish in the top 15 for passing yards all-time if not higher (#15 is Jim Kelly with 35,467), he is only 21 TD passes from cracking the top 20 list in that category and he should finish in the top 10, He will break into the top 20 in completions by the end of this season, he is already a top 15 all-time QB ratings wise and he is already a top 7 rushing QB. McNabb should and will go into the HOF.
And the worst QB in the hall of fame? Please. The worst QB in the HOF according to you would be better than half of them statistically and most of them physically :/
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Old 07-14-2009, 07:59 PM    (permalink
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Thumper, you need to take broth's opinion on McNabb with about 83 grains of salt. I'm not saying he's a HOFer, but broth would have you believe McNabb is a mediocre QB at best.
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Old 07-14-2009, 10:07 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Bengalsrocket View Post
You bring up interesting points (all of which I saw earlier in the thread). However, I think it's a little bit of a stretch to call him the worst QB to go into the HoF just because he didn't lead the league in passing yards. There is like 20 different variables that go into that stat (for example: did the defense struggle to get off the field? Did his RB have a lot of carries? Does he tuck the ball and run with it often? Was he a contender for passing yards before an injury ever?).

Edit: I should clarify, you actually called him the worst QB to go into the HoF (assuming he makes it) for multiple reasons, not just passing yards. however, my point was to refute the fact that leading the league in passing yards should even matter.
Ok I am going to rephrase it because I'm not going to fall into the trap of comparing QBs from different eras because it is going to insight the same argument that goes nowhere. McNabb would be the worst QB in the hall in terms of accolades (which IMO history determines greatness).

But that is neither here nor there. It is not JUST because McNabb was never in the top 5 in passing yards and its not JUST because he never won a SB and its not JUST because he was never the MVP but when you put all that together can you really say he is one of the greatest QBs of all time?

But I guess this debate boils down to is McNabb's stat line good enough to ignore the rest of his shortcoming? If you say yes then he is a HOFer if you say no like I do then you say no he isn't a HOFer.
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oh please. as if canadians even know what beer is.
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Old 07-14-2009, 10:20 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by broth223 View Post
Ok I am going to rephrase it because I'm not going to fall into the trap of comparing QBs from different eras because it is going to insight the same argument that goes nowhere. McNabb would be the worst QB in the hall in terms of accolades (which IMO history determines greatness).

But that is neither here nor there. It is not JUST because McNabb was never in the top 5 in passing yards and its not JUST because he never won a SB and its not JUST because he was never the MVP but when you put all that together can you really say he is one of the greatest QBs of all time?

But I guess this debate boils down to is McNabb's stat line good enough to ignore the rest of his shortcoming? If you say yes then he is a HOFer if you say no like I do then you say no he isn't a HOFer.
You have unreasonably high expectations of a hall of famer. Because he is not the best ever he should not go into the hall of fame?

Breaking news, not everyone in the hall is the best ever. I mean look at Joe Namath, Terry Bradshaw, Bob Griese, Troy Aikman etc. etc. there are plenty of guys who are not the GOAT in the HOF.
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