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Old 05-18-2009, 09:35 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by the decider13 View Post
Someone said that Maradonna is more well known, and I said that if you asked people in America about a footballer, they would probably answer Beckham. Unless they were older, then they would probably answer Beckham.

The only people in America who know who Ronaldo, Ronaldinho and Kaka are actually watch football. It's sad...I tried to talk to my cousin about the sport, and he said he didn't understand it and had no interest in watching it. Just doesn't catch on here for the most part.

EDIT: Never said who my number one footballer was. Think I'll go different and pick Zidane.
love that man. I nearly cried to see him go off with a red card in his final game. God that was a sad moment and it never should have happened. Yes it was a stupid foul, yes with any other player it should have been a red card... but this was Zinedine Zidane for crying out loud. The man is a living legend, playing his final game. He pulls something like that, you give Materazzi red for being a douchebag.
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Old 05-18-2009, 09:39 AM    (permalink
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Richard Petty & Sugar Ray Robinson were pretty big stars in their respective sports. Willie Mays & Jack Nicklaus also come to mind. Jackie Robinson is kind of a big deal.
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Old 05-18-2009, 09:58 AM    (permalink
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Maradona is a better footballer player then Pele, btw. It's not even as close as people are making it out to be. Pele may be more well known to you Americans but on pure talent, Maradona was better and as a result, the best player to have played the game.
That's how you see it. I'm European by the way, so don't act like I don't know my stuff. Pure talent important, but in the end it's what you do with it. Pele had the talent and the production, while Maradona may have been the most talented player ever, but his personal demons really took their toll on him. And be honest, does it really matter who is the greatest of all time?
My post wasn't meant to be condescending and I apologise if it came out that way. Bottom line is, Maradona was more talented then Pele which in my opinion, makes him better then Pele. If you want to make the arguement that it comes down to production and use of talent, which btw, is a concept that I hate, the word 'production' in a sporting sense really annoys me, then Maradona is once again, better then Pele. He did everything Pele did for his country in a much less talented team, he won everything in his own countries league like Pele but most tellingly, unlike Pele who played out his career at Santos, he traveled to Europe and conquered the Spanish and Italian leagues. This shows an immense versatility and adaptability to his game that Pele never showcased, instead playing almost within himself at a place he felt comfortable at. I mean, Maradona went to Napoli and turned them into champions! This isn't meant to be knocking of Pele and he is, of course, one of the greatest players to have ever played the game but in terms of pure talent, his success in his career and the adulation he recieved from not only his peers but from the fans and press, there is no one better then Maradona.
EDIT: and yes, it does matter who's the best. Just ask Maradona.

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Originally Posted by Addict
The way I see it Maradona, Pele, Cruijff, Garrincha, Zidane and maye even Ronaldo in his prime were all insanely good and much like with American Football it's hard to pinpoint who was the GOAT. It depends on preference more than anything.
Even with that short list, I'm snubbing a few: Platini, Beckenbauer, Schmeichel (yeah, a goalie, but he practically won the Euro '92 with Denmark all by himself)... the list of fantastic players goes on and on. Saying one is definately better than the other is tough, but I suppose you could make a case for Maradona as much as I or anyone else could make a case for any of the other guys I just mentioned. It's how it goes I suppose.
True, the scale of football and how widespread the game is, having international tournaments since the 1920's means that there are going to be huge amounts of players over different eras who could claim to be the greatest player of all time, even your list ommitts some great names such as Puskas and Eusebio, which show just how many players there are that could be worthy of the tittle. However, the fact that Maradona claimed over half of the votes in a poll to decide the best footballer of the century that was voted for by players and fans, had his goal voted the best in the history of the world cup and has caused his country to be the first ever in the history of football to ask FIFA, the sports governing body, to retire his shirt, show, in my opinion, quite unequivocally, that Maradona was the greatest player to have ever played the game.

Just putting this on the other page incase it got lost on the bottom of the third one. Also, Zidane is without doubt, the greatest footballer I've ever seen and easily the best of his generation, it was such an honour to get to see the great man play live.
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Old 05-18-2009, 03:16 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Jango View Post
My post wasn't meant to be condescending and I apologise if it came out that way. Bottom line is, Maradona was more talented then Pele which in my opinion, makes him better then Pele. If you want to make the arguement that it comes down to production and use of talent, which btw, is a concept that I hate, the word 'production' in a sporting sense really annoys me, then Maradona is once again, better then Pele. He did everything Pele did for his country in a much less talented team, he won everything in his own countries league like Pele but most tellingly, unlike Pele who played out his career at Santos, he traveled to Europe and conquered the Spanish and Italian leagues. This shows an immense versatility and adaptability to his game that Pele never showcased, instead playing almost within himself at a place he felt comfortable at. I mean, Maradona went to Napoli and turned them into champions! This isn't meant to be knocking of Pele and he is, of course, one of the greatest players to have ever played the game but in terms of pure talent, his success in his career and the adulation he recieved from not only his peers but from the fans and press, there is no one better then Maradona.
EDIT: and yes, it does matter who's the best. Just ask Maradona.


True, the scale of football and how widespread the game is, having international tournaments since the 1920's means that there are going to be huge amounts of players over different eras who could claim to be the greatest player of all time, even your list ommitts some great names such as Puskas and Eusebio, which show just how many players there are that could be worthy of the tittle. However, the fact that Maradona claimed over half of the votes in a poll to decide the best footballer of the century that was voted for by players and fans, had his goal voted the best in the history of the world cup and has caused his country to be the first ever in the history of football to ask FIFA, the sports governing body, to retire his shirt, show, in my opinion, quite unequivocally, that Maradona was the greatest player to have ever played the game.

Just putting this on the other page incase it got lost on the bottom of the third one. Also, Zidane is without doubt, the greatest footballer I've ever seen and easily the best of his generation, it was such an honour to get to see the great man play live.
This whole discussion why bradman was my number 1.
There is no bigger sport with a more undisputed number 1. Now for me personally Id take Pele over Maradona every day (and quite some other footballers cause I just think Maradona is a lot of talent and not as good as he could be) but thats not how everybody feels.
There is no sport I can think of with a more undisputed number 1 to be honoust and with cricket being the #2 sport in the world (in number of players, the world cup cricket had better ratings than anything but the olympics even) he was an easy choice.
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Old 05-18-2009, 03:27 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by wicket View Post
Since I think that the majority here isnt familiar with my choices 1 and 4 I'll give a bit of an extra illustration for them:
Don Bradman. averaged 99.94 with the bat. No other average over 65 has been recorded for players playing a similar amount of games, and this is in the second largest sport worldwide with the longest history of international contests.


Just a quote to illustrate how special he was

Eddy Merckx: won the tour the france (that thing that armstrong won a bunch of times) 5 times but also won every other major competion a few times (armstrong never won any one day courses, nor did he win the giro or the vuelta which basicly are about as important as the tour the france). the diversity of his wins has not only never been equaled, it has never even been flirted with.
I'm probably one of the few Americans familiar with Eddy Merckx (though, admittedly, I wouldn't be able to spell his name until this thread, lol). A few of my friends are cyclists and they got me into it, and Eddy Merckx is easily one of the sport's icons. Armstrong is a recent figure, and his story is what has made him more of a name on some people's eyes, particularly in America, but Eddy is much more accomplished, for the reasons you said.
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Old 05-21-2009, 02:17 AM    (permalink
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Oh wait, that's just my favorite sport star of all time.
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Old 05-21-2009, 02:21 AM    (permalink
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Old 05-21-2009, 04:20 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Jango View Post
My post wasn't meant to be condescending and I apologise if it came out that way. Bottom line is, Maradona was more talented then Pele which in my opinion, makes him better then Pele. If you want to make the arguement that it comes down to production and use of talent, which btw, is a concept that I hate, the word 'production' in a sporting sense really annoys me, then Maradona is once again, better then Pele. He did everything Pele did for his country in a much less talented team, he won everything in his own countries league like Pele but most tellingly, unlike Pele who played out his career at Santos, he traveled to Europe and conquered the Spanish and Italian leagues. This shows an immense versatility and adaptability to his game that Pele never showcased, instead playing almost within himself at a place he felt comfortable at. I mean, Maradona went to Napoli and turned them into champions! This isn't meant to be knocking of Pele and he is, of course, one of the greatest players to have ever played the game but in terms of pure talent, his success in his career and the adulation he recieved from not only his peers but from the fans and press, there is no one better then Maradona.
EDIT: and yes, it does matter who's the best. Just ask Maradona.

True, the scale of football and how widespread the game is, having international tournaments since the 1920's means that there are going to be huge amounts of players over different eras who could claim to be the greatest player of all time, even your list ommitts some great names such as Puskas and Eusebio, which show just how many players there are that could be worthy of the tittle. However, the fact that Maradona claimed over half of the votes in a poll to decide the best footballer of the century that was voted for by players and fans, had his goal voted the best in the history of the world cup and has caused his country to be the first ever in the history of football to ask FIFA, the sports governing body, to retire his shirt, show, in my opinion, quite unequivocally, that Maradona was the greatest player to have ever played the game.

Just putting this on the other page incase it got lost on the bottom of the third one. Also, Zidane is without doubt, the greatest footballer I've ever seen and easily the best of his generation, it was such an honour to get to see the great man play live.
I didn't want to go too oldschool with those two, one could even look to Di Stefano and Platini if more names must be added, Van Basten comes to mind, as do Bobby Moore and sir Bobby Charlton.

But it's a debatable subject that has already been battered to death in the public arena. In the end 'the best' is a very very subjective thing. Maradona may have been the most talented, Pele the most productive. The GOAT in the end might be in the eye of the beholder. But Maradona was a beast.

As for the talent v. production thing. I think it works kinda like intelligence. It's not what you CAN do, but what you DO with it.

That said, Bradman prolly is the greatest sports player of all time since there's no argument against him nor does he have competition for the title. Unlike in any other sport where there's always other guys who deserve mention next to a potential GOAT.
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Old 05-21-2009, 09:21 AM    (permalink
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Gerd Müller ftw!
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Old 05-21-2009, 11:14 AM    (permalink
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You think David Beckham is the biggest soccer star of all time. ARE YOU ******* SERIOUS?! Really? Spice Girl wife who gets some fame because of him? Really? That's your reasoning "we know who his wife is, so he MUST be famous". For crying out loud Beckham's fame isn't even related to his soccer playing anymore, and hasn't been for years. He's a good-looking dude. Beckham in his absolute prime couldn't sniff the all-time greats. Hell he wasn't even the best player in the world in his prime, that honor belongs to Zidane.
Really, did you even read what I wrote? The question wasn't the "greatest athletes of all time" it was the biggest stars. For me to be a star you must transcend your sport. Beckham was a very good player, there is no doubt, he was also never the best as you say, he is however by far the biggest star, the guy got 50m to play soccer in the USA, that says it all.

Quote:
again, no. Pele was the greatest. After him, and I do mean AFTER, there's Cruijff and Maradona. Maradona's fame, again, may be greater than Pele's, but that's more due to his fall from grace.
So your literally taking this topic to mean greatest. If that's what the original poster wanted then he should have asked. Maradona is a bigger star, probably due to infamy like you say, but none the less is the bigger star, also it is very arguable that Maradona was better, but that is another topic.

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Kournikova? Really? She wasn't even known to be great tennis player, she wasn't even really really good. She didn't win jacksquat during her career. Her fame comes from having a pretty face and a good body. She's poster material, that's it. She didn't even win a major tournament for crying out loud.
Again, seriously, what is the point of this topic if it isnt about stardom, why name it what it was named? Realistically Kournikova could be a lot higher on the list, hell she just about defines star, she wasn't any good as a singles player and yet she was still better known than anyone playing at the time.

Seriously, you seem to have just looked at the names without even reading what the topic was about.

Quote:
even if its about the most famous guys, u cant name Beckham. he is maybe the most famous guy in the US. But guys like Ronaldo (the Brazilian), Ronaldinho, Kaka and those guys are more famous than Beckham. Seriously the Ronaldo love in 2000-2002 was ridiculous
Not a chance. Beckham is just far bigger than any of those guys in the rest of the world. He is the biggest soccer star in India, China, Japan, England, Asia in general and the USA. If you are the biggest star in over 50% of the world, you win. Just the way it is.

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Even in the realm of it's own stupidity that post was silly. David Beckham is a celebrity who just so happens to play football, not a football celebrity. Do you really think that people can name more than 1 team he played for? No. They all say "REAL MADRID OMGZZZ" and that's the end of it. There's a reason Beckham went to the MLS you know, because it's where dying football stars go to collect their final big paycheck (no offense to the MLS, but it's true).
Kournikova? She's a model, not a tennis player. She half-assed around a few centercourts way back when, but since then her main claim to fame has been the fact she looks hot in a bikini.
The thing Kournikova and Beckham have in common is that their fame is the result of good looks and a mediahype, not merits. With Beckham being the only one of the two to actually win something in his sport every now and again.
You are just flat out wrong on this one mate. Beckham only played for like 4 teams in his career, anyone who can't name Man Utd, Real and LA is just ignorant, not to mention England. You are seriously underrating him as a player also, he wasn't one of the greatest ever, but he was one of the better players in his generation, he also transcended the sport.

As for Kournikova, you are also ignorant, she is one of the most successful doubles player of her era, sure she sucked in singles and didn't win squat, but she was a very good doubles player and she was a superstar in the sport, she basically was womens tennis, hell players like Sharapova are just "the next Kournikova". Really says it all on her behalf.

Quote:
He was a phenomenal player with Man Utd, but he didn't transform from player to celeb until he came to spain and eventually the US.
Thats just ********. Beckham was the biggest player in the rest of the world long before he went to Madrid, there was a reason Madrid paid so much for him even though he was already declining at that point and it had ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with soccer. Beckham was worth what Madrid and LA paid him without even touching a ball, the fact he could play just helped the cause.

Now obviously if you are purely wanting the "greatest players" the list is very different, half those guys don't even sniff it, but it was biggest star, i defined what that meant and made a list. I'd love to see you make a list of guys you think are bigger stars than Jordan, Beckham or even Kournikova, that would be interesting. Of course I can only speak from places I have been and associated with, but that represents over half the world so it probably is a fairly well formed opinion on the topic.
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Old 05-21-2009, 11:37 AM    (permalink
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Really, did you even read what I wrote? The question wasn't the "greatest athletes of all time" it was the biggest stars. For me to be a star you must transcend your sport. Beckham was a very good player, there is no doubt, he was also never the best as you say, he is however by far the biggest star, the guy got 50m to play soccer in the USA, that says it all.
that made me lol. So big money in the US = biggest Football player of all time?

you do know that the world is bigger than the US do you?

he is no where close being the most known player in China, India or Japan. if at all it would be someone like Henry who has like all those gilette commercials in the subs. And im talking about personal experience with china.

Ronaldo was by far the guy that was known by everyone who has even the slightest idea of soccer. In china, in germany and all the other countries, Ronaldo was kinda the GOAT, especially when he surpassed Gerd Müller with the most goals in the WC
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Old 05-21-2009, 12:03 PM    (permalink
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Beckham is massive all around the world and his off the field success is the reason why Madrid bought him. Sure, he was a quality player and he is one of my favuorites but that Real Madrid team was the peak of the 'Galitcos' (despite not winning something till Beckham's last season, which is kind of funny). they had Raul, Zidane, Heirro, Ronaldo, Roberto Carlos, Figo and Roberto Carlos. Beckham didn't and shouldn't have been expected to make that team better. He was a great player, of course, but he wasn't an upgrade on any of those players, just another luxury signing. What he provided off the field was unbelievable though. The man himself is a brand and is loved in Asia, I mean adored. Japan? China? India? Head over heals in love with him. They buy whatever **** this guy puts his face to, he is massive. No player comes near to him in that regard, your suggestion that Henry is more well known then him becuase of the Gillette adds is really naive, considering Henry has never toured the Far East, (Madrid, as soon as they bought Beckham, announced a tour there that was sold out within minutes) and Beckham has advertised Gillette as well.

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In the first six months that Beckham was at Real, from the summer of 2003 to Christmas, he sold more shirts than the rest of the team put together, and twice the number of shirts that Real had sold in the equivalent period a year earlier.
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Perez asked him how much Beckham was worth to him. "Five hundred million euro," Sanchez shot back.
End of the day, Beckham made Madrid more millions of pounds, not dollars, but pounds, then games he played for them, and he played 116.
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Old 05-21-2009, 12:16 PM    (permalink
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let's be honest here, what do china, japan and india have in common? They all know jacksquat about soccer. So the fact he's more popular there has more to do with marketing than anything.
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Old 05-21-2009, 12:18 PM    (permalink
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let's be honest here, what do china, japan and india have in common? They all know jacksquat about soccer. So the fact he's more popular there has more to do with marketing than anything.
seriously, i hardly meet people in china that ever talk about beckham
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Old 05-21-2009, 12:23 PM    (permalink
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seriously, i hardly meet people in china that ever talk about beckham
funny coincidence. I never meet people in china to begin with XD

But those countries are notoriously volatile when it comes to celebs and stuff like that. Besides Inda and China should, by numbers have a talent pool that's scary to imagine, but their respective national teams suck.
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Old 05-21-2009, 12:25 PM    (permalink
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funny coincidence. I never meet people in china to begin with XD

But those countries are notoriously volatile when it comes to celebs and stuff like that. Besides Inda and China should, by numbers have a talent pool that's scary to imagine, but their respective national teams suck.
thats because they are all playing table tennis and badminton. i think the chinese won all of the table tennis gold medals and titles there is to win this year
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Old 05-21-2009, 12:31 PM    (permalink
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IDK, cause I think Wilt Chamberlain should be right up there for that title. He was just in a league of his own when he was playing. Only player with 4,000 pts in a season, most points in a game, most rebounds in a game, most consecutive shots made in a game. He freaking averaged 50.4 pts in a season. For his career, he averaged 30.1 ppg and 22.9 rpg. He caused rules to be changed.

In regards to your statement, I just don't think it is so clear cut.
I may be biased but it's because I've had lengthy discussions with 2 former NHL pros (who were very accomplished in their own right) about Wayne. They were having trouble explaining how dominant he was. From what I got out of it, the man could do whatever he pleased out on the ice because of pure talent and vision. And did you see the size of him. Incredibly small yet no one even dared to hit him due to the fact he could make them look like idiots (and Marty McSorley) :)
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Old 05-21-2009, 01:19 PM    (permalink
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let's be honest here, what do china, japan and india have in common? They all know jacksquat about soccer. So the fact he's more popular there has more to do with marketing than anything.
Wow, what an incredibly ignorant and somewhat moronic comment to make. Did Japan have no idea what football is when they hosted the world cup? When they one of the best footballing leagues outside Europe? What does China know about football, considering they too have a league system and compete regularly in international competitions? What does India know about football, I mean, only 130,000 people turned up to watch Calcutta play Bayern Munich and 5 of the players ended up being scouted by them? When over a million people swabbed Maradona as he toured India? What do these nations know about football?

Football may not be the number one sport in those countries, Table Tennis and Badminton especially in the Far East dominate while Cricket and Hockey may be India's first main sports but football is the only sport that is truly worldwide. You can go anywhere in the world with just a football and get on with anyone, anywhere. Hell, there's a film of 4 guys who travel to Argentina from England to meet their hero, Maradona, with nothing more then a football In American football, the Superbowl Champs are declared World Champs, despite them only beating teams in their country, for a nation to be World Champs, they have to beat countries from all over the world. China, India and Japan don't as you so eloquently put, know 'jacksquat' football. They know about football and enjoy it with a passion
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Old 05-21-2009, 01:21 PM    (permalink
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seriously, i hardly meet people in china that ever talk about beckham
China may be a bit of an anomaly compared to the rest of Asia, maybe due to the stance of their government and lack of exposure, government forced 'distancing' from the west, or whatever, let's not get into that now. And I'm not going to argue with you, you appear to have traveled to China and I have not, so I'll take your word for it. But the rest of Asia is in love with him, places like South Korea go apeshit over him. I think it was there they made a statue for him.
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Old 05-21-2009, 01:22 PM    (permalink
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China may be a bit of an anomaly compared to the rest of Asia, maybe due to the stance of their government and lack of exposure, government forced 'distancing' from the west, or whatever, let's not get into that now. And I'm not going to argue with you, you appear to have traveled to China and I have not, so I'll take your word for it. But the rest of Asia is in love with him, places like South Korea go apeshit over him. I think it was there they made a statue for him.
i didnt just travel there, both my parents are chinese.
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Old 05-21-2009, 01:28 PM    (permalink
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love that man. I nearly cried to see him go off with a red card in his final game. God that was a sad moment and it never should have happened. Yes it was a stupid foul, yes with any other player it should have been a red card... but this was Zinedine Zidane for crying out loud. The man is a living legend, playing his final game. He pulls something like that, you give Materazzi red for being a douchebag.
That was crazy. When he headbutted him I was just thinking "wtf just happened". Horribe way to end an amazing career.

I picked him because he was a player they always amazed me. It was like he had the ball on a string.
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Old 05-21-2009, 01:33 PM    (permalink
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was the Marseille Roulette made famous by Zidane? I know he used it alot but did he make it famous?
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Old 05-21-2009, 01:37 PM    (permalink
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Some people call it the '360' and the 'Maradona' but I think that it can be attributable to Zidane as well and the fact that people call it the 'Marseilles Roulette' gives that more credence, considering Zidane was born in Marseilles.
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Old 05-21-2009, 01:40 PM    (permalink
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was the Marseille Roulette made famous by Zidane? I know he used it alot but did he make it famous?
Either him or Maradona...I think of Zidane when I see it though.
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Old 05-21-2009, 01:40 PM    (permalink
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I've only ever heard it called or called it the Maradona. IMO, Maradona is more famous for it than Zidane.
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