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Old 05-27-2009, 03:49 PM    (permalink
abaddon41_80
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quoted for total truth. unless you have bonerz for jump passes, Tim Tebow should never, ever be near the top of any QB list.

FB? TE? yea, maybe there
Now right now. If Tebow works on his mechanics, develops a throwing motion that isn't a cross between Vince Young's and Byron Leftwich's, and plays smarter I could see him being a first round QB. He has all of the physical tools. Even if he doesn't fix up his problems, if Pat White got drafted in round 2, what is to say that Tebow can't get drafted for a wildcat offense that early?
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Old 05-27-2009, 03:50 PM    (permalink
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That's Rich Gannon....
he was using the pic in reference to the quote in that comment.
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Old 05-27-2009, 03:50 PM    (permalink
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Now right now. If Tebow works on his mechanics, develops a throwing motion that isn't a cross between Vince Young's and Byron Leftwich's, and plays smarter I could see him being a first round QB. He has all of the physical tools. Even if he doesn't fix up his problems, if Pat White got drafted in round 2, what is to say that Tebow can't get drafted for a wildcat offense that early?
Because he is super slow compared to pat white. Wouldn't be much of a threat in the NFL as a runner imo
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Old 05-27-2009, 03:51 PM    (permalink
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This topic sucks. The only real knock that scouts are worried about is that Bradford does not get touched when he drops back. Everything has been a little too easy for him. His jersey goes unwashed for weeks.
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Old 05-27-2009, 03:53 PM    (permalink
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Because he is super slow compared to pat white. Wouldn't be much of a threat in the NFL as a runner imo
He isn't as fast as White but he isn't slow, he has been clocked in the 4.4's in the 40. He is a much better passer than White, imo, and is more powerful so he can offer more versatility in short yardage situations.
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Old 05-27-2009, 03:54 PM    (permalink
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He isn't as fast as White but he isn't slow, he has been clocked in the 4.4's in the 40. He is a much better passer than White, imo, and is more powerful so he can offer more versatility in short yardage situations.
Link? There's no way Tebow runs a 4.4
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Old 05-27-2009, 03:58 PM    (permalink
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Link? There's no way Tebow runs a 4.4
It was in the local paper when he was playing at Nease that he ran a 4.48. It was probably hand-timed, though.
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Old 05-27-2009, 04:00 PM    (permalink
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I agree that sometimes prospects help other prospects based on their success in the NFL. But they have to be similar in styles. Like Hester's success helping Ginn's stock, but Ginn sucking hurt DeSean Jackson's stock. White & Tebow couldnt be anymore different, so it means nothing what round White was reached on. As of now, Tebow is the best fullback prospect we have ever seen. Take it for what it's worth.
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Old 05-27-2009, 04:04 PM    (permalink
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I'd be shocked if Tebow ran in the 4.5 range even to be honest. If I remember correctly, Vince Young ran around 4.6 at his pro day.
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Old 05-27-2009, 04:07 PM    (permalink
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I don't even like Tebow that much, he is currently my 4th quarterback for next year, but I am just saying he could go in the first round.
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Old 05-27-2009, 06:47 PM    (permalink
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Basing all the information we have on Tebow right now, three years of experience and two as a starter, he is a backup QB at best that will need years of development to garner a #2 role for a team. He has a long delivery and average arm strength. His hips and feet are going to need a lot of time with a QB coach to strengthen his arm and create more zip on his passes. He, like Bradford and McCoy, throws with all arm and no lower body. Now, with another year of development at the college level he could improve on his reads, which are better and more sophisticated than Sam Bradford at this point in time, but that's not saying much. Tebow will actually look off a safety and come back to the other side of the field and throw the ball to an open man. He will actually move a safety with his eyes. Bradford rarely does that and he's very inaccurate when he's not staring his WRs down. Tebow is used to seeing more complex defenses that create different looks specifically for him. The zone coverages he sees aren't those conventional Cover 2 zone under schemes.

All these QBs have a lot of growing to do. A major reason why there seems to be fewer and fewer NFL caliber QBs coming out of the college ranks is because of these one read systems and spread offenses. Floirda's system creates a lot problems for Tebow as a prospect. He's never under center for one and his reads are rather simple, but he did make big improvements last year as a pocket passer and going through his progressions. He does hold the ball for a long time and struggles to find a man if his first two options are covered.

People need to stop talking about his speed and him being a TE. He's not fast or athletic. He doesn't have very good quickness or cutting ability nor the ability to make anyone miss in the open field. He's never played TE. He's never blocked for a RB. He's a QB. Just because he's a prolific player that will take a long time to be a legit NFL QB doesn't mean NFL teams have to write him off and stick him at another position. Coach the ******* kid up and see if he can be a capable starter. He's not going to be all world. If everyone just gets that out of their heads and drafts him in the 4th or 5th round as a developmental guy that will be your third string QB for at least the next three years, maybe then you can have some success with Tebow if he takes to the coaching, learns the system and achieves his potential. If he doesn't work out, then it's no big deal. Not all developmental guys work out. If he moves up your depth chart and shows signs of being a starter in four years, then all that time can pay off. If you draft him in the second round and stick him at another position it's going to be a waste of time and you'll have a bust on your hands.

I really do question his leadership skills at the next level. I love his passion for the game and he can lead a team by example. He's a great leader at the college level, but I don't how NFL players are going to react to this kid and his praise Jesus Christ mentality and his squeaky-clean, virginal image. I don't know what kind of vocal presence he will have in a locker room of men. He makes me roll my eyes whenever he talks, but he pumps me up when he's on the field. I'm a huge fan of his, but I can't take him seriously when he talks and he does come off as a bit of joke.

He needs so much coaching that no one knows how good or bad of a QB he can or will be at the next level. Since he has all these questions surrounding his game, his value as a prospect drops to the fourth or fifth round range. You could find a future starter or a guy who never makes it as a QB and does make a position change if he's ever going to make it. He shouldn't be a boom or bust prospect, he's a boom or nothing prospect.
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Old 05-27-2009, 09:42 PM    (permalink
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Most top QB prospects don't face much pressure in college. In fact, in recent memory, the only QB prospect I can think of that had faced a ton of pressure often is Jay Cutler. Obviously the more a QB can prove himself under pressure in college, the less that's a question heading to the pros, that said, considering it wasn't a question mark for one top QB prospect in recent memory, maybe it's a good thing that he hasn't faced a ton of pressure.
Hello, Matt Ryan? Brady Quinn? Trent Edwards, if you go down a little bit. Jimmy Clausen might be there this/next year. You could make a case for Stafford if you tried hard enough.

Whether the lack of sacks on Bradford is due to the offensive line, him, or the system is something I would leave up to debate, but Cutler is hardly the only top guy to have been pressed a bit in his collegiate career.
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Old 05-27-2009, 09:52 PM    (permalink
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Hello, Matt Ryan? Brady Quinn? Trent Edwards, if you go down a little bit. Jimmy Clausen might be there this/next year. You could make a case for Stafford if you tried hard enough.

Whether the lack of sacks on Bradford is due to the offensive line, him, or the system is something I would leave up to debate, but Cutler is hardly the only top guy to have been pressed a bit in his collegiate career.
Ryan had 5 drafted OLs in his time at BC, Quinn got plenty of clean pockets, and Edwards wasn't really considered a Top QB prospect. No good QB prospect that I've ever watched saw as much pressure as Cutler did.
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Old 05-27-2009, 09:53 PM    (permalink
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Now right now. If Tebow works on his mechanics, develops a throwing motion that isn't a cross between Vince Young's and Byron Leftwich's, and plays smarter I could see him being a first round QB. He has all of the physical tools. Even if he doesn't fix up his problems, if Pat White got drafted in round 2, what is to say that Tebow can't get drafted for a wildcat offense that early?
sure, and IF Jabu Lovelace learns how to throw with any accuracy, read a defense, look off safeties and know how to throw at all from the QB position, he'd easily be a high pick for the wildcat.

see what I did there?

that and i never questioned where Tebow will go. Just having him as the #2 QB is insane and nonsensical
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Old 05-27-2009, 09:55 PM    (permalink
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Hello, Matt Ryan? Brady Quinn? Trent Edwards, if you go down a little bit. Jimmy Clausen might be there this/next year. You could make a case for Stafford if you tried hard enough.
You could make a case for Stafford? Is this a joke?

You think he got into the habit of throwing off his back because he had a pocket like Sam Bradford?


Get Jimmy Clausen' name outta there. Garbage. Freaking ND sucks with a terrible QB and people still talk about their QB like he's ever done something or shown he might be able to do something. Let him have a couple of good games in college before we start talking about him as a pro prospect. Minga.
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Old 05-27-2009, 10:00 PM    (permalink
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Ryan had 5 drafted OLs in his time at BC, Quinn got plenty of clean pockets, and Edwards wasn't really considered a Top QB prospect. No good QB prospect that I've ever watched saw as much pressure as Cutler did.
Ryan had garbage around him and his O-Line sucked the only two years that mattered.

Quinn, hate the guy and think he's completely average, but anytime ND actually played someone with a defense, he was pressured all game long. It just so happens ND plays two teams with a defense that rank in the top 50 a year.

Trent Edwards and Jay Cutler played for schools that didn't have their sites on winning football games. More academic schools. Jay Culter had Chris Williams though? He had some clean pockets.

If you think Matt Stafford had clean pockets then you didn't watch him and you surely didn't see the Alabama or Florida game. They were on national tv.
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Old 05-27-2009, 11:18 PM    (permalink
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Ryan had garbage around him and his O-Line sucked the only two years that mattered.

Quinn, hate the guy and think he's completely average, but anytime ND actually played someone with a defense, he was pressured all game long. It just so happens ND plays two teams with a defense that rank in the top 50 a year.

Trent Edwards and Jay Cutler played for schools that didn't have their sites on winning football games. More academic schools. Jay Culter had Chris Williams though? He had some clean pockets.

If you think Matt Stafford had clean pockets then you didn't watch him and you surely didn't see the Alabama or Florida game. They were on national tv.
Gosder Cherilus and Josh Beekman were on Ryan's lines. They're far from grabage.
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Old 05-27-2009, 11:36 PM    (permalink
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Gosder Cherilus and Josh Beekman were on Ryan's lines. They're far from grabage.
He was playing LT... and he sucked.

Beekman wasn't there for his senior year, which is the year that got him drafted as high as he went (3rd overall), so his blocking in Chicago was not felt during Ryans best year.

Anymore brain busters?

There is no point debating how crappy the players were around Ryan. They were bad. He had one NFL player beside him on that offense (senior year) and he had the worst year of his college career because he (Cherlius) was playing out position. So... let's just leave that one alone.
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Old 05-28-2009, 12:11 AM    (permalink
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Bradford is not any where near Garcia in terms of mobility.
Wasn't really comparing their mobility but moreso their mechanics and size/builds and style of play (Agreed that Bradford isn't as mobile).
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Old 05-28-2009, 12:16 AM    (permalink
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He was playing LT... and he sucked.

Beekman wasn't there for his senior year, which is the year that got him drafted as high as he went (3rd overall), so his blocking in Chicago was not felt during Ryans best year.

Anymore brain busters?

There is no point debating how crappy the players were around Ryan. They were bad. He had one NFL player beside him on that offense (senior year) and he had the worst year of his college career because he (Cherlius) was playing out position. So... let's just leave that one alone.
Cherilus played 1 year at LT. 3 years at RT, where he demolished people.

Beekman was another great OG, and is doing well in the pro's.

They had a 6'7/6'8 LT for 2 years before Gosder and he was actually pretty solid, he wasn't athletic enough for LT in the pro's but he did much better than Gosder, I just can't think of his name.

Ah, James Marten. Excellent player in college.

Snee, Trueblood, Marten, Beekman, Cherilus...

Guys there from 2004-2008.

Not to mention BC has a long standing tradition of building great Offensive lines, even if they're not flashy or high draft picks, they always have a great OL In college.
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Old 05-28-2009, 02:54 AM    (permalink
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Cherilus played 1 year at LT. 3 years at RT, where he demolished people.

Beekman was another great OG, and is doing well in the pro's.

They had a 6'7/6'8 LT for 2 years before Gosder and he was actually pretty solid, he wasn't athletic enough for LT in the pro's but he did much better than Gosder, I just can't think of his name.

Ah, James Marten. Excellent player in college.

Snee, Trueblood, Marten, Beekman, Cherilus...

Guys there from 2004-2008.

Not to mention BC has a long standing tradition of building great Offensive lines, even if they're not flashy or high draft picks, they always have a great OL In college.
Everything you said is semi-correct until that last clause. Ryan's line was far from good. They massacred by a Virginia Tech front that was merely good.

Beekman is... well, I wouldn't describe it as doing well. He's got some minute semblance of playing well, but he's hardly setting the world on fire. Strictly average at this point.
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Old 05-28-2009, 03:08 AM    (permalink
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Everything you said is semi-correct until that last clause. Ryan's line was far from good. They massacred by a Virginia Tech front that was merely good.

Beekman is... well, I wouldn't describe it as doing well. He's got some minute semblance of playing well, but he's hardly setting the world on fire. Strictly average at this point.
Dude is solid in the run game and gave up a mere 1.5 sacks last year listing him near the top of the OG's. Beekman is no Steve Hutchinson, but the guy plays a good game.

Virginia tech had a great defense the last few years.


Brandon Flowers, Macho Harris, Kam Chancellor, Xavier Adibi, Orion Martin, Aaron Rouse, Carlton Powell, Jimmy Williams, Darryl Tapp, Cam Martin, Cody Grimm and a few others i'm forgetting.
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Old 05-28-2009, 04:43 AM    (permalink
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Dude is solid in the run game and gave up a mere 1.5 sacks last year listing him near the top of the OG's. Beekman is no Steve Hutchinson, but the guy plays a good game.

Virginia tech had a great defense the last few years.


Brandon Flowers, Macho Harris, Kam Chancellor, Xavier Adibi, Orion Martin, Aaron Rouse, Carlton Powell, Jimmy Williams, Darryl Tapp, Cam Martin, Cody Grimm and a few others i'm forgetting.
No one really gave Ryan any NFL looks as a junior since he played with a broken foot and had a very average season. His senior year was the year everyone was using the tape to break down his game (seeing as he was the most improved and a prospects last season in college is the most important for game film analysis by scouts). No one cares about about the three NFL linemen they had during his stay at BC. The only thing anyone cares about is the crap line he had his senior year with his crap WRs and his crap RBs, where, to go back to the original statement, Ryan saw a ton of pressure. The only thing he had was a great NFL styled scheme. You want to see a college spread offense that translates exceptionally well, watch Matt Ryan as a senior and that BC scheme.

He was constantly buying time and avoiding pressure. His O-Line and Gosder Cherilus were hardly average... during a good game. Cherilus played so bad against the better teams in the country, it's hard to imagine the Lions took him in the first round basing all his ability on two year old game tape at RT.


People forget. Ryan had next to nothing his last year. It wasn't that long ago. Everyone was saying he was surrounded by zero NFL talent, and the one NFL talent he had was playing very badly because he was out of position. He had pressure. He had the offense on his back. He made plays and he gambled. He threw picks. Forced passes. Did everything he could do to give his team a chance. Some people thought it was all excuses for poor play. It looks like Ryan isn't going to throw 20 INTs a year. Maybe surrounding talent does make a player look below their capabilities if that talent is poor... or vice versa, which might be the case with Sam Bradford. Incredible talent and offensive scheme taking all the pressure off him and making him look better than he really is? Hmm. I think I just found something.

Nevermind. I mentioned that in the original post.

By Snee, I hope you weren't talking about Chris Snee... He was not a college teammate of Ryan. Maybe he had a crappy brother I don't about that also played there?
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I could possibly see Matthew Stafford Dropping out of the 1st round
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Old 05-28-2009, 09:25 AM    (permalink
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He was playing LT... and he sucked.

Beekman wasn't there for his senior year, which is the year that got him drafted as high as he went (3rd overall), so his blocking in Chicago was not felt during Ryans best year.

Anymore brain busters?

There is no point debating how crappy the players were around Ryan. They were bad. He had one NFL player beside him on that offense (senior year) and he had the worst year of his college career because he (Cherlius) was playing out position. So... let's just leave that one alone.
The team made it to the ACC Championship and was one quarter away from a BCS game. Regardless of how good Ryan was, he didn't do it all by myself and it certainly wasn't due to the skill players around him either. The men upfront, even if they aren't the most highly touted, gave him enough time to make plays and put the team in a position to be successful.

I will admit that Gosder wasn't the world's greatest LT but playing the ACC helped ease any lackings that Cherilus brought to the table. He did a capable job and helped keep Matt Ryan on his feet.
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Old 05-30-2009, 12:52 AM    (permalink
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If big XII defenses are so terrible why did UF score 24 points only? In case you don't know, that's lower than they scored against EVERY SEC defense. So I don't want to hear the the conference knock on Bradford.
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