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Old 05-27-2009, 11:51 PM    (permalink
Smokey Joe
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Default Should all BCS conferences have 12 teams and a conferance championship game?

In light of this article with Joe Pa, I thought this would make a good discussion in a rather boring time...

http://rivals.yahoo.com/ncaa/footbal...v=ap&type=lgns

I think it is silly not to have the BCS conferences with 12 teams and a championship game. They are playing for an automatic bid into one of the top 4 bowl games, so shouldn't they have to really earn it? Also, with non BCS conferences expanding at a good rate, it might be wise to move some of the best teams out into BCS conferences.

Lets start off with the big 10. The most logical choice would be Notre Dame. They are in the midwest, provide a large tv market, and have a long time rivalry with a Big 10 team. Lets look at how that will break down.

WEST Division: (permanent rivals from opposing division)
Illinois (Indiana)
Northwestern (Purdue)
Iowa (Ohio St.)
Minnesota (Penn St.)
Wisconsin (Michigan St.)
*Notre Dame* (Michigan)

EAST Division:
Indiana (Illinois)
Purdue (Northwestern)
Ohio St. (Iowa)
Penn St. (Minnesota)
Michigan St. (Wisconsin)
Michigan (Notre Dame)

So, you got your 4 out of conference games (some of which are the same every year, a la Notre Dam and USC, Notre Dame and Navy, Iowa and Iowa St., etc), your 5 games within your division, your 1 permanent opponent from the other division, and the other 2 games rotate between 2 of the 5 remaining opponents in the other division every 2 years. Then you got the conference championship game.
__________________________________________________ ___________

Now it's time for the Pac 10. They need two more teams. I really wanted to go with Boise St. and Utah here, but I think the PAC 10 would rather preserve that inter-state rivalry thing they got going. So, instead, I went with Utah and BYU. Both BYU and Utah are top non-BCS schools, and both are in Utah. The breakdown would be:

NORTH Division:
Washington
Washington St.
Oregon
Oregon St.
*Utah*
*Brigham Young*

SOUTH Division:
UCLA
USC
CAL
Stanford
Arizona
Arizona St.
__________________________________________________ ___________

Last, but not least, time for the Big East. They now need 4 teams added. I think I'm gonna dig into the MAC. First, Northern Illinois. They keep improving every year and are one of the most televised teams.

Next, lets go with Central Florida. Nice new stadium, building some good teams, and are in a great area for recruiting. Plus, they are rivals with South Florida.

Lets expand out and add TCU. Not really in the east, but then again, the Cowboys play in the east. TCU has been one of the better non BCA teams and should be competitive in the Big East.

Lastly, I'll say Rice. This was the toughest one to pick, but I'll add another Texas team that has only been improving and bringing in some serious talent. The breakdown would look like:

EAST Division:
*Central Florida*
South Florida
Rutgers
Syracuse
Connectict
Pitt

WEST Division:
*Rice*
*TCU*
*NIU*
WVU
Louisville
Cincinnati

Well, that is my dream scenario.
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Old 05-28-2009, 12:00 AM    (permalink
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If you wanted conference champions to REALLY earn it, conferences should follow the Pac 10's model and play a complete round robin.
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Old 05-28-2009, 12:45 AM    (permalink
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I would rather see BYU and Utah in the Big XII but they already have 12 teams so bleh!
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Old 05-28-2009, 02:54 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Michigan View Post
If you wanted conference champions to REALLY earn it, conferences should follow the Pac 10's model and play a complete round robin.
Agreed.

But the Pac10 gets downgraded as a conference because they end up beating each other up...
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Old 05-28-2009, 03:34 AM    (permalink
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But the Pac10 gets downgraded as a conference because they end up beating each other up...
I've been saying that for so long, but no one here agrees.
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Old 05-28-2009, 08:47 AM    (permalink
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It's the next logical step in giving any legitimacy to the BCS, the best conferences and teams shouldn't be punished. But Notre Dame will never join the Big Ten until NBC doesn't give them a huge TV contract, which is never.
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Old 05-28-2009, 12:10 PM    (permalink
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I agree with you about the BCS conferences all needing 12, however, I see and understand the Pac 10's logic in keeping 10 teams. Despite how I may disagree with Pac 10 apologists, they do make a very valid and sound point how a 10 round robin is best.

Back to your point, though. I disagree with your choices for the Big East. While the Dallas Cowboys may play in the NFC East, college conferences take into account travel cost, length of time to and from cities, etc... Going from Fort Worth, TX to Syracuse, NY or New Brunswick, NJ would cost quite a bit, not to mention the length of time it would take to get to those two cities. I also like the idea of the MWC being strong but that would be tossed out the window if Utah & BYU bolt for the Pac-10. I guess then the MWC would bring in Fresno, Hawaii, and Boise St. but that's just me thinking out loud.

So, back to your point...

Big 10

Ideally, yes, Notre Dame would join the Big 10. In today's climate it would benefit them more to join a BCS conference than stay independent. However, Notre Dame is a tradition rich school and I do not see them leaving their television deal or the perks of being independent.

Most ideal candidates in order:
Notre Dame
West Virginia
Syracuse
Rutgers
Louisville
Iowa St.

Big East - This conference is going to be shaken up sooner than later. The basketball only teams are discussing the feasibility of forming their own conference which would put the primary focus on football. Grabbing four note-worthy teams from any conference close to the Big East's region is going to be a hard feat to do. Most likely they will have to go after C-USA teams mostly, if not the service acadamies of Army & Navy. Temple is another school that could garner some consideration given they were in the Big East a few years back. I wouldn't rule out Notre Dame either as they affiliated with the conference in every sport but football and could easily be one of the top ranked football programs in the Big East (depending if they return to form).

Most ideal candidates in order:
Notre Dame
Memphis
East Carolina
UCF
Southern Miss
Northern Illinois
Navy
Army

Just like what happened when the ACC expanding several years ago there will be an aftershock felt across most conferences. I have several scenario's (eight altogether I believe) about potential conference re-alignments on my personal computer.
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Old 05-28-2009, 12:38 PM    (permalink
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I'd be thrilled to see Notre Dame join the Big Ten, but they make money hand over fist staying Independent, so they will continue playing soft schedules year in and year out and getting into bowls they usually do not deserve to play in and lose since do not have to split the money they receive with the rest of a conference in addition to their bloated TV contract.

Notre Dame might want to consider putting the Almighty Dollar opposite Touchdown Jesus.

If the Big Ten were to get another team, my money would be on Pittsburgh at this point.
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Old 05-28-2009, 12:58 PM    (permalink
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if anything I'd like 8 team conferences better. It gives every team up to five slots to plan traditional rivals.
If ND is ever gonna join in any conference its gonna wanna be sure that they can play USC, Michigan, Army, Navy, Stanford and Purdue every year. So ever when they join a big10esque conference they'd still have 3 must haves outside conference scedule.
This is not even considering the fact that they have to play 3 big east teams due to hoops and stuff.

I actually think the bcs would be more fun with more independent teams.
I still also want a 16 team playoff in the end but thats never gonna happen.

So I'd settle for the bowl games we have right now 10 teams of which 6 conference champions. The best 2 minor conference/ independents (given more independents) and two spots as wild cards.

This would hopefully result in better appreciation for scedule strength and more tough scedules. Right now winning a conference is almost the easy way in for some conferences.

In that regard I'd love for ND to rescedule Miami. Playing Oklahoma(we are gonna play them a few times, early next decade), Miami, Michigan, USC amongst others as headliners and rounding that off with 3 big east teams (presumably almost always pitt, bc and uconn), the service acadamies, Purdue, Michigan State and a few rotating teams like Wake Forest, AriSt amongst others makes for nice scedules.
I realise that ND wont scedule themselves out of national title contention anymore like they did in the early nineties but a ND scedule off:
USC, Miami, UM, MichST, some big team (Oklahoma in early next decade, but can be Texas, some SEC school or even pOSU as well), Purdue, Army, Navy, Pitt, BC, Uconn and some slightly smaller school with similar academic values like Stanford, Wake Forest or Vanderbilt would make a mighty nice scedule without being unplayable.

exits :soapbox:
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Old 05-28-2009, 01:04 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Smokey Joe View Post

WEST Division: (permanent rivals from opposing division)
Illinois (Indiana)
Northwestern (Purdue)
Iowa (Ohio St.)
Minnesota (Penn St.)
Wisconsin (Michigan St.)
*Notre Dame* (Michigan)

EAST Division:
Indiana (Illinois)
Purdue (Northwestern)
Ohio St. (Iowa)
Penn St. (Minnesota)
Michigan St. (Wisconsin)
Michigan (Notre Dame)
I think in that scenario Illinois and Ohio State would be the "permanent rivals" instead of Iowa or Indiana. Illibuck.
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Old 05-28-2009, 01:10 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by keylime_5 View Post
I think in that scenario Illinois and Ohio State would be the "permanent rivals" instead of Iowa or Indiana. Illibuck.
Illinois-Indiana is a pretty big rivalry.

Also, I have a feeling if the Big XI does split into divisions, they would separate OSU and Michigan in hopes to have them face eachother in the championship.
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Old 05-28-2009, 01:21 PM    (permalink
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OSU/Illinois play for the Illibuck trophy, and they were a really big rivalry back a long time ago before the Michigan/Ohio State rivalry exploded in intensity.
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Old 05-28-2009, 01:23 PM    (permalink
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wicket View Post
if anything I'd like 8 team conferences better. It gives every team up to five slots to plan traditional rivals.
If ND is ever gonna join in any conference its gonna wanna be sure that they can play USC, Michigan, Army, Navy, Stanford and Purdue every year. So ever when they join a big10esque conference they'd still have 3 must haves outside conference scedule.
This is not even considering the fact that they have to play 3 big east teams due to hoops and stuff.

I actually think the bcs would be more fun with more independent teams.
I still also want a 16 team playoff in the end but thats never gonna happen.

So I'd settle for the bowl games we have right now 10 teams of which 6 conference champions. The best 2 minor conference/ independents (given more independents) and two spots as wild cards.

This would hopefully result in better appreciation for scedule strength and more tough scedules. Right now winning a conference is almost the easy way in for some conferences.

In that regard I'd love for ND to rescedule Miami. Playing Oklahoma(we are gonna play them a few times, early next decade), Miami, Michigan, USC amongst others as headliners and rounding that off with 3 big east teams (presumably almost always pitt, bc and uconn), the service acadamies, Purdue, Michigan State and a few rotating teams like Wake Forest, AriSt amongst others makes for nice scedules.
I realise that ND wont scedule themselves out of national title contention anymore like they did in the early nineties but a ND scedule off:
USC, Miami, UM, MichST, some big team (Oklahoma in early next decade, but can be Texas, some SEC school or even pOSU as well), Purdue, Army, Navy, Pitt, BC, Uconn and some slightly smaller school with similar academic values like Stanford, Wake Forest or Vanderbilt would make a mighty nice scedule without being unplayable.

exits :soapbox:
Weis threw out most, if not all of ND's academic standards when he came in to make the team more competitive... so they are no longer in the conversation with Stanford, Wake Forest, Vanderbilt, and Virginia. Their football academic standards would be more in line with schools like UCLA, North Carolina, Tennessee, and Virginia Tech thanks to Weis.
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Old 05-28-2009, 03:16 PM    (permalink
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wonderbredd24 View Post
Weis threw out most, if not all of ND's academic standards when he came in to make the team more competitive... so they are no longer in the conversation with Stanford, Wake Forest, Vanderbilt, and Virginia. Their football academic standards would be more in line with schools like UCLA, North Carolina, Tennessee, and Virginia Tech thanks to Weis.
please look at the percentage of players graduating and on what majors, at the moment stanford has lower standards when offering kids than ND does.
Quote:
Originally Posted by wonderbredd24 View Post
I'd be thrilled to see Notre Dame join the Big Ten, but they make money hand over fist staying Independent, so they will continue playing soft schedules year in and year out and getting into bowls they usually do not deserve to play in and lose since do not have to split the money they receive with the rest of a conference in addition to their bloated TV contract.

Notre Dame might want to consider putting the Almighty Dollar opposite Touchdown Jesus.

If the Big Ten were to get another team, my money would be on Pittsburgh at this point.
Last two years (with the easiest scedules in ND history) they still played a SoS similar to a Big10 team (outside pOSU). So yeah the scedule was easy for ND standards but to call it a walktrough is just wrong.



So to be honest, your arguments are 100% BS.
But please do talk more.
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Old 05-28-2009, 04:01 PM    (permalink
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Has a single Weis recruit graduated yet?

No?

So you think I should look at Willingham's graduation rates with academic standards intact to gauge how well Weis is doing?

Makes perfect sense to me.
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Old 05-28-2009, 10:39 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by wonderbredd24 View Post
Has a single Weis recruit graduated yet?
No?

So you think I should look at Willingham's graduation rates with academic standards intact to gauge how well Weis is doing?

Makes perfect sense to me.
yes, all early entries of that recruiting class(weis first) actually graduated early.
Please, if you try and be a smartass at least be right
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Old 05-28-2009, 11:42 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Smokey Joe View Post
I think it is silly not to have the BCS conferences with 12 teams and a championship game. They are playing for an automatic bid into one of the top 4 bowl games, so shouldn't they have to really earn it? Also, with non BCS conferences expanding at a good rate, it might be wise to move some of the best teams out into BCS conferences.
The Pac-10's model of playing a round robin is the closest thing we have in college football to determining a true conference champion. Teams in the SEC and Big-12 miss out on 3 conference opponents every year. While Missouri will miss playing Oklahoma, Texas Tech and Texas A&M this year, every team in the Pac-10 will have to face each other in order to win the conference.

I mean, how in the hell can Iowa St. even be given credit for playing in the Big-12 when they don't play Texas, Oklahoma or Texas Tech this year? How is it not preferable that all teams play each other every season?

All we'll hear all year long is about how the SEC just beats up on each other and it's the toughest conference in America. Yet in reality, we'll see a great Florida team miss out on Alabama, Auburn and Ole Miss! Really? So they can play Charleston Southern, Troy and Florida International? Even if they win the SEC championship game against one of those 3, they still missed out on the other two. But people will act like their undefeated season is more impressive than an undefeated season from an SC or an Oregon. And who earned what again?

In short, what's the point of having 12 teams in your conference if many of them won't even play each other? All that does is create an unequal playing field which results in false standings.
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Old 05-29-2009, 02:15 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by YAYareaRB View Post
I would rather see BYU and Utah in the Big XII but they already have 12 teams so bleh!
Kick out ISU and KSU. No one would notice or likely even care.
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Old 05-29-2009, 01:43 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by wonderbredd24 View Post
I'd be thrilled to see Notre Dame join the Big Ten, but they make money hand over fist staying Independent, so they will continue playing soft schedules year in and year out and getting into bowls they usually do not deserve to play in and lose since do not have to split the money they receive with the rest of a conference in addition to their bloated TV contract.

Notre Dame might want to consider putting the Almighty Dollar opposite Touchdown Jesus.
Wonderbredd24 nailed it here. Notre Dame will remain indy simply b/c they won't have to share bowl $ & can continue to beat Navy every season -- what was it, 45 straight Ws over the Middies? c'mon -- & dodge Big 10 powerhouses like Ohio St.

The Golden Dome & their gold helmets are golden for a reason in South Bend, IN. Now that Weis lowered their academic standards they have truly morphed into a Temple of Mammon instead of the Jesuit institution of moral Christian higher education they used to be -- hell, I remember when they had a policy of not accepting bowl invitations way back in the day. What other single Div. 1 program had its own exclusive TV network game broadcasting contract, geez?

Their recent downfall has tasted delicious, Weis is proving that not all former NFL guys can achieve success returning to college Div. 1 like Saban & Carroll. If their o-line doesn't improve dramatically & protect Clausen or they don't win at least 8 games with their wussy schedule this yr. they will be howling for Weis' head, he's had his chances but the program declined, not improved under his regime, no more #1-ranked national recruiting classes = more hard times for the Irish.
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Old 05-29-2009, 06:41 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by duckseason View Post
The Pac-10's model of playing a round robin is the closest thing we have in college football to determining a true conference champion. Teams in the SEC and Big-12 miss out on 3 conference opponents every year. While Missouri will miss playing Oklahoma, Texas Tech and Texas A&M this year, every team in the Pac-10 will have to face each other in order to win the conference.

I mean, how in the hell can Iowa St. even be given credit for playing in the Big-12 when they don't play Texas, Oklahoma or Texas Tech this year? How is it not preferable that all teams play each other every season?

All we'll hear all year long is about how the SEC just beats up on each other and it's the toughest conference in America. Yet in reality, we'll see a great Florida team miss out on Alabama, Auburn and Ole Miss! Really? So they can play Charleston Southern, Troy and Florida International? Even if they win the SEC championship game against one of those 3, they still missed out on the other two. But people will act like their undefeated season is more impressive than an undefeated season from an SC or an Oregon. And who earned what again?

In short, what's the point of having 12 teams in your conference if many of them won't even play each other? All that does is create an unequal playing field which results in false standings.
By many, you mean 3. Also, with a conference championship, it leaves you with the chance of facing 1 of the 3. If you luck out and get an easier schedule, good for you. You still face the other 5 teams in your division. You win your division, you go to the conference championship game. You mention Iowa St. not facing Oklahoma, Texas, and Texas Tech. Well, if Iowa St. didn't suck and won their division, they would eventually still face them.

Plus, I think it's a lot tougher to kick out teams from a BCS conference than it is to add.
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Old 05-29-2009, 06:42 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by LizardState View Post
Wonderbredd24 nailed it here. Notre Dame will remain indy simply b/c they won't have to share bowl $ & can continue to beat Navy every season -- what was it, 45 straight Ws over the Middies? c'mon -- & dodge Big 10 powerhouses like Ohio St.

The Golden Dome & their gold helmets are golden for a reason in South Bend, IN. Now that Weis lowered their academic standards they have truly morphed into a Temple of Mammon instead of the Jesuit institution of moral Christian higher education they used to be -- hell, I remember when they had a policy of not accepting bowl invitations way back in the day. What other single Div. 1 program had its own exclusive TV network game broadcasting contract, geez?

Their recent downfall has tasted delicious, Weis is proving that not all former NFL guys can achieve success returning to college Div. 1 like Saban & Carroll. If their o-line doesn't improve dramatically & protect Clausen or they don't win at least 8 games with their wussy schedule this yr. they will be howling for Weis' head, he's had his chances but the program declined, not improved under his regime, no more #1-ranked national recruiting classes = more hard times for the Irish.
I'd put in a new rule where teams in D-I FBS football can only be independent is if they are making the transition into FBS from FCS or a part of the armed forces.
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Old 05-29-2009, 07:05 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Smokey Joe View Post
By many, you mean 3.
No, I really don't. I mean 18. 3 each = 18 instances in all.

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Originally Posted by Smokey Joe View Post
Also, with a conference championship, it leaves you with the chance of facing 1 of the 3.
I mentioned that in my post.

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Originally Posted by duckseason View Post
Even if they win the SEC championship game against one of those 3, they still missed out on the other two.
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Originally Posted by Smokey Joe View Post
If you luck out and get an easier schedule, good for you. You still face the other 5 teams in your division. You win your division, you go to the conference championship game.
No. You're missing my point. If two teams from the same division play drastically different schedules, the team with the easier schedule has a tremendous advantage in winning that division.

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Originally Posted by Smokey Joe View Post
You mention Iowa St. not facing Oklahoma, Texas, and Texas Tech. Well, if Iowa St. didn't suck and won their division, they would eventually still face them.
No, if they won their division they might face one of the three. It has nothing to do with them sucking or not. This happens with solid teams just as often.

The bottom line is that the way the SEC and Big-12 are set up creates an uneven playing field and can't help but produce inaccurate division champions from time to time. There is no disputing that.

A round robin format is indisputably more accurate in producing a conference champion.
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Old 06-01-2009, 09:48 AM    (permalink
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I've been saying that for so long, but no one here agrees.
that's because the Pac10 gets downgraded because the teams in it aren't that good.....not because "they beat each other up".
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Old 06-01-2009, 04:23 PM    (permalink
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that's because the Pac10 gets downgraded because the teams in it aren't that good.....not because "they beat each other up".
In reality, the Pac-10 does beat up on itself more than any other conference. The result of which is a false perception of inferiority to those who only look at rankings and records as their gauge of how good teams are. You won't see us with as many bowl eligible teams not only because we have less teams, but because we have more losses built into our schedule than conferences that don't play each other as much. In addition to the tougher league schedule, the Pac-10 as a whole has been playing the toughest non-conference slate for several years now. And that really hasn't been close.

It's also important to note the disproportionate amount of votes allocated to conferences for the coaches poll, which also contributes to a false perception of Pac-10 inferiority. As does the current state of TV contracts.

Any conference that went 5-0 this past bowl season ought not be labeled as "not that good."

Any person that wants to compare a 10 team conference to a 12 team conference ought to account for the disparity.

People love to point to all the talent the SEC sends to the NFL as evidence of superiority- and with good reason. But are they aware that the Pac-10 had more players drafted per team this past season than the Big12, Big10, or the great SEC itself?

Pac10 = 3.20
SEC = 3.08
Big10 = 2.55
Big12 = 2.33

I'm not saying the Pac-10 is the best conference, but there's no way in hell it should be classified as "not that good" by anybody who knows what they're talking about.
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Old 06-02-2009, 11:45 AM    (permalink
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Oh......right....east coast bias.

On any given year the Pac-10 has a top 3 team in USC.....a pretty good team that is either Cal, Oregon, ASU, or a surprise team......a couple of average teams from that list combined with Oregon St and UCLA.......and then the sucktacular Washington teams, Stanford, and Arizona.

That happens every year. That's 1 awesome team, 1 pretty good team, 4 average teams, and 4 awful teams.

Having quality players that go to the NFL doesn't necessarily mean the teams as a whole are any good. Neither do bowl records....especially considering the following opponents: Penn State, Pitt, OK St, Miami, & BYU.

"Beating up on each other" is a cop out. My friends used that excuse when people started bashing the Big 10. It means we aren't that good.
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