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Old 06-02-2009, 11:38 AM    (permalink
Dagagad
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Originally Posted by HindSight View Post
Oh......right....east coast bias.

On any given year the Pac-10 has a top 3 team in USC.....a pretty good team that is either Cal, Oregon, ASU, or a surprise team......a couple of average teams from that list combined with Oregon St and UCLA.......and then the sucktacular Washington teams, Stanford, and Arizona.

That happens every year. That's 1 awesome team, 1 pretty good team, 4 average teams, and 4 awful teams.

Having quality players that go to the NFL doesn't necessarily mean the teams as a whole are any good. Neither do bowl records....especially considering the following opponents: Penn State, Pitt, OK St, Miami, & BYU.

"Beating up on each other" is a cop out. My friends used that excuse when people started bashing the Big 10. It means we aren't that good.
That is actually a pretty good list of bowl opponents.

I think the Pac 10 does a lot of things right. Everyone plays each other and they schedule non gimmes ooc. I'm not sure if it east coast bias but I'd say they are better than they are perceived.

Why would having players go to the nfl not correlate with having good teams? Although, just going by one year of data seems like cherry picking.

Anyone his original point still stands. A 10 team round robin is the most fair system, but it does put USC at a considerable disadvantage. They do not get a conference championship game to make up for a previous loss.
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Old 06-02-2009, 12:43 PM    (permalink
diabsoule
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duckseason has an extremely valid point as always.

And like in my previous post, the more I think about it the less I see the PAC 10 expanding anytime soon. They have a formula that works and they make money off of it. They have one of the most marketable programs in the country in USC, another extremely marketable basketball team in UCLA, and have decent enough parity to consistently get 4-6 teams in bowl games each year.

If any conferences were going to expand it's more than likely to be the BIG 10 and Big East. While the BIG 10 commish seems to squash any talk of expansion it would enhance the conference. They would be able to play longer into the season, be able to capitalize on a conference championship game, and bring more exposure into the already well-known conference.

With the Big East, they were built for basketball as their a super basketball conference, however, and like I've previously stated, there is talk amongst the non-football schools about forming their own conference. The Big East knows that it's money is made with football so in order for them to gain more popularity I'm sure they would look to expansion.
If I was them I'd try to woo Boston College back, it just makes sense geographically for them to be in the Big East. If BC doesn't want to come back then an obvious choice would be Memphis. Bringing in the Tigers brings an up-and-coming football team plus a basketball program that has really built it's reputation over the past decade.
East Carolina is another school that meshes well geographically. They usually have a solid football program, make a bowl game seemingly every other year, and can produce some NFL quality players. Memhpis & ECU make 10 members.
Then you have UCF. A natural rival for USF and a program on the rise, same with FAU.
The last Big East team would be tough. There's NIU, Army and Navy which would have to be football only schools, Marshall, Southern Miss, Notre Dame, Tulsa, Bowling Green, etc... All of those programs have a drawback.
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Old 06-02-2009, 01:17 PM    (permalink
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I never understood why so many people, when splitting the Big 10 in two, go East-West. The East, based on history, would dominate the West almost every year. A more balanced North-South seems a better idea to me;

North:
Iowa
Michigan
Michigan State
Minnesota
Northwestern
Wisconsin

South:
Illinois
Indiana
Ohio State
Penn State
Purdue
Notre Dame/Pittsburgh/Rutgers/Syracuse
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Old 06-02-2009, 01:57 PM    (permalink
diabsoule
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Originally Posted by Cigaro View Post
I never understood why so many people, when splitting the Big 10 in two, go East-West. The East, based on history, would dominate the West almost every year. A more balanced North-South seems a better idea to me;

North:
Iowa
Michigan
Michigan State
Minnesota
Northwestern
Wisconsin

South:
Illinois
Indiana
Ohio State
Penn State
Purdue
Notre Dame/Pittsburgh/Rutgers/Syracuse
I've always done North/South when splitting the Big 10. It makes more sense.
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Old 06-02-2009, 02:30 PM    (permalink
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So does anyone think the Pac-10 is superior to the SEC?
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Old 06-02-2009, 06:44 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by HindSight View Post
Oh......right....east coast bias.
No, not just an east coast bias. The perception is built-in like I said. Even most Pac-10 fans have a hard time computing the impact of the round robin and tougher non-conference schedule. It's hard for a person to look at a winless Washington team and think they were better than anybody last year, but it's true. There were several teams that were worse than Washington last year. They just happened to play an incredibly difficult schedule and didn't come through and win the games they should have.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HindSight View Post
On any given year the Pac-10 has a top 3 team in USC.....a pretty good team that is either Cal, Oregon, ASU, or a surprise team......a couple of average teams from that list combined with Oregon St and UCLA.......and then the sucktacular Washington teams, Stanford, and Arizona.

That happens every year. That's 1 awesome team, 1 pretty good team, 4 average teams, and 4 awful teams.
Yes, it can be difficult to accurately account for the fact that the Pac-10 has less teams. It can also be difficult for people to realize that when every team in the conference plays each other and there's only ten teams, it's damn near impossible to have several teams with impressive records. The tough non-conference scheduling only enhances that effect.

Stanford, for example, was not a bad team last year. Of course they went 5-7 so they must not have been that great, but they were a solid football team that almost certainly would have been bowl eligible with a schedule like that of say Kansas or Nebraska. See, Stanford along with most other Pac-10 teams don't play a 3 game preseason like so many other teams do. There is no automatic 3-0 to start the season when you open against Oregon state then travel to Arizona State and then head down to TCU. But there certainly is when you open with a 3 game home stretch againt decidedly inferior competition and then go on to miss out on 3 of 11 conference opponents.

Again, a quick glance at conference standings will only imprint a false perception on your mind. You must look much deeper to discover how those results came about.

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Originally Posted by HindSight View Post
Having quality players that go to the NFL doesn't necessarily mean the teams as a whole are any good.
I am in complete agreement, which is why I opened that statement by reminding you how often people point to that particular stat as evidence of SEC superiority. It doesn't tell the whole story, but the amount of players a conference or team sends to the NFL does reveal some things. As do bowl wins. Obviously I understand that one must look at the entire picture in order to gauge just how good an individual team is. Shouldn't we all?

Quote:
Originally Posted by HindSight View Post
Neither do bowl records....especially considering the following opponents: Penn State, Pitt, OK St, Miami, & BYU.
Ok. Penn State was the Big-10 champ. SC already beat the usual Big-10 champ 35-3. If the Pac-10 is "not that good," what's that make the Big-10?

9-3 Pittsburgh was the 2nd place team in the Big East playing our 3rd place team in 8-4 Oregon St. So again, what's that make the Big East if the Pac-10 is so horrible?

Oklahoma St. came into the Holiday Bowl with the same record as Oregon and ranked 4 spots higher in the BCS at 13. They were favored, and we beat them soundly.

Miami and BYU? Right, our middle of the road teams beat other middle of the road teams. Whoever wins those games isn't going to get a ton of credit either way.

And again, I'm fully aware that this past bowl season is merely 5 pixels in a very large picture.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HindSight View Post
"Beating up on each other" is a cop out. My friends used that excuse when people started bashing the Big 10. It means we aren't that good.
It's not a cop out. It's an explanation for why the records and perceptions are what they are. It is a simple fact that the Pac-10 has more losses built into their schedule than any of the other BCS conferences. That's all it is. As long as it is the way it is, the Pac-10 will always have a lower percentage of bowl eligible teams and the average fan or talking head will blindly attribute facts like that to inferiority.

And the same thing can't be said about the Big-10 because they only play 8 of 10 opponents. I remember when Wisconsin enjoyed a 4 year run where they missed Michigan in '03 and '04, and Ohio State in '05 and '06. Just so happened they did pretty well those years.

I mean, if the Pac-10 isn't that good, who the hell is?
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Old 06-03-2009, 09:21 AM    (permalink
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Ok. Penn State was the Big-10 champ. SC already beat the usual Big-10 champ 35-3. If the Pac-10 is "not that good," what's that make the Big-10?
Not that good.

9-3 Pittsburgh was the 2nd place team in the Big East playing our 3rd place team in 8-4 Oregon St. So again, what's that make the Big East if the Pac-10 is so horrible?
The Pac-10 isn't horrible. The Big East is.


Listen.....I actually hate this conference war crap that redneck SEC fans started. It's ********. But Pac-10 fans (not you....the generic stereotypical Pac-10 fan) have convinced themselves that their teams are better than they really are. Yes, your schedule has more losses built in. But that doesn't mean those teams would win the games if they were scheduled like every other conference. I mean.....they would if the games were against 1aa schools or NMSt or something like that.....but nobody is saying beating those teams makes you any good.

Basically.....Washington played a 'tough' schedule, so they lost a bunch of games. That doesn't automatically mean they would have won more games with an easier schedule. They would have against an SEC non-conference slate.....but nobody would consider them any better for it.

I think the Pac-10 has it right, and I wish the Big10 would/could do it that way.....but it also has a built in excuse for when your team isn't that good.
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Old 06-03-2009, 08:44 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by HindSight View Post
Ok. Penn State was the Big-10 champ. SC already beat the usual Big-10 champ 35-3. If the Pac-10 is "not that good," what's that make the Big-10?
Not that good.

9-3 Pittsburgh was the 2nd place team in the Big East playing our 3rd place team in 8-4 Oregon St. So again, what's that make the Big East if the Pac-10 is so horrible?
The Pac-10 isn't horrible. The Big East is.


Listen.....I actually hate this conference war crap that redneck SEC fans started. It's ********. But Pac-10 fans (not you....the generic stereotypical Pac-10 fan) have convinced themselves that their teams are better than they really are. Yes, your schedule has more losses built in. But that doesn't mean those teams would win the games if they were scheduled like every other conference. I mean.....they would if the games were against 1aa schools or NMSt or something like that.....but nobody is saying beating those teams makes you any good.

Basically.....Washington played a 'tough' schedule, so they lost a bunch of games. That doesn't automatically mean they would have won more games with an easier schedule. They would have against an SEC non-conference slate.....but nobody would consider them any better for it.

I think the Pac-10 has it right, and I wish the Big10 would/could do it that way.....but it also has a built in excuse for when your team isn't that good.
Wow. Way to wave the flag of ignorance. I can't believe they make people like you still. What? We're redneck because we're from the South? Every state has rednecks not just the southern part of the United States.
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Old 06-04-2009, 08:01 AM    (permalink
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Wow. Way to wave the flag of ignorance. I can't believe they make people like you still. What? We're redneck because we're from the South? Every state has rednecks not just the southern part of the United States.
did I say all SEC fans are rednecks? learn how to read if you're going to get that offended by words.
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Old 06-04-2009, 10:18 AM    (permalink
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did I say all SEC fans are rednecks? learn how to read if you're going to get that offended by words.
Well you didnt distinctly say SEC fans weren't rednecks. I think you were insinuating that the SEC fans on this board are rednecks.
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Old 06-04-2009, 02:08 PM    (permalink
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Well you didnt distinctly say SEC fans weren't rednecks. I think you were insinuating that the SEC fans on this board are rednecks.
You didn't disctinctly say that you don't hate all black people.....so I'm going to assume you're insinuating that you do hate all black people.

Why are you a racist?
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Old 06-04-2009, 02:56 PM    (permalink
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So does anyone think the Pac-10 is superior to the SEC?
In regards to what?
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