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Old 07-18-2009, 07:54 PM    (permalink
bernbabybern820
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Originally Posted by yo123 View Post
As someone who has watched every Vikings game for as long as I can remember and now can't stand Culpepper, I can admit that he was a damn good quarterback for a stretch of a couple seasons. And Moss wasn't the only reason. In 2004 which was Daunte's best season ever by far Moss was hindered by injuries all year and didn't even reach 1,000 yards.
But at the same time... Here's Gus Frerotte's stats for the two games as a starter with the Vikings with Moss when Cpep was injured in 2003.

Games started: 2
Completions: 30
Attempts: 45
Completion %: 66.6%
Yards: 506
Touchdowns: 6
Int: 1
QB Rating: 134.8
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Old 07-18-2009, 08:21 PM    (permalink
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What kind of argument can you really make with a two game sample? I don't think anyone can seriously argue that Moss doesn't make a quarterback's life easier, but for a counterargument, here's Culpepper's 2004 numbers in games where Moss wasn't even on the field.

Games started: 5
Completions: 113
Attempts: 166
Completion rate: 68%
Yards: 1179
Touchdowns: 9
Int: 3

And, of course, Moss wasn't even particularly close to being Pep's leading receiver that year.
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Old 07-18-2009, 08:57 PM    (permalink
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Was Culpepper even in that good of situation to succeed anyway. He got hurt, got released and went to a rebuilding franchise who faltered with a pathetic coach, got released, went to a pathetic raiders team with an even worse coach, had injury issues, came back to the lions, the worst team in NFL history and he's expected to turn in performances similar to what he did in minnesota.

He was great under an offensive minded coach with an excellent supporting cast and then went to the worst organisations in the NFL with bad coaches one after the other.

I don't know why you'd expect him to have been better.
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Old 07-19-2009, 03:44 AM    (permalink
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Was Culpepper even in that good of situation to succeed anyway. He got hurt, got released and went to a rebuilding franchise who faltered with a pathetic coach, got released, went to a pathetic raiders team with an even worse coach, had injury issues, came back to the lions, the worst team in NFL history and he's expected to turn in performances similar to what he did in minnesota.

He was great under an offensive minded coach with an excellent supporting cast and then went to the worst organisations in the NFL with bad coaches one after the other.

I don't know why you'd expect him to have been better.
Before he got injured though during the 2005 season, he was performing terribly. People love to say that he faltered in Minnesota because of his knee, but in reality he was playing pretty terrible to begin with. That first game against the Buccaneers was pretty much the beginning of the Culpepper we know today. Outside of two good games against the lowly Packers and Saints that season, he really was disappointing. The departure of Linehan and center Matt Birk hurt, but it looked like Culpepper just couldn't read defenses anymore. Or rather, the league figured him out.
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Old 07-19-2009, 04:01 AM    (permalink
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Well without Dan Fouts and Coryell there wouldn't be deep passing as we know it, forget the defenses.

Deion turned the game into a show. Jim Brown played 1 v. 11, required more attention than Moss ever did. Fran Tarkenton redefined quarterbacking with his scrambling. Lawrence Taylor changed everything. The NFL's history is too long and too deep for a guy like Moss to even be considered for most influential.
In addition to those fine suggestions, Sammy Baugh essentially pioneered the forward pass as we know it and Don Hutson almost single handedly invented the concept of route-running.
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Old 07-19-2009, 12:08 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by BamaFalcon59 View Post
He changed how defenses covered deep passing. And that is a big part of todays game.
Actually, Peyton great season when he set the record for TD passes changed how defenses defend the pass. Moss has had little impact on the game outside of a few great seasons.
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Old 07-19-2009, 05:07 PM    (permalink
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Lynn Swan was more influential ? All of his 2-3 big catches he's known for right ? GTFOH. Lynn Swan never reached 900 yards in any season. So please. And Calvin Johnson is a new & improved version of Randy Moss. Bigger, stronger, faster, and you'll never have to say "when motivated" he is a great WR. Youre automatically taken out of G.O.A.T. discussion when you have to bring up a qualifier like that.
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Old 07-19-2009, 05:37 PM    (permalink
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Old 07-19-2009, 06:46 PM    (permalink
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Before he got injured though during the 2005 season, he was performing terribly. People love to say that he faltered in Minnesota because of his knee, but in reality he was playing pretty terrible to begin with. That first game against the Buccaneers was pretty much the beginning of the Culpepper we know today. Outside of two good games against the lowly Packers and Saints that season, he really was disappointing. The departure of Linehan and center Matt Birk hurt, but it looked like Culpepper just couldn't read defenses anymore. Or rather, the league figured him out.

The league didn't just figure him out, that never happens, especially not after a player has one of the greatest seasons of a quarterback of all time. Yeah there were likely some issues at the beginning of the season when in the first two games he threw 8 total interceptions, he lost his Offensive Coordinator, he lost his centre and he lost his best receiver. He was out of his depth without someone who knew how to cater to him and without the guys around him who helped make him great.

Against Carolina the coaches were trying different things and it was working, the Culpepper was playing well and it wasn't until he went out of the game that Carolina began to dominate.

There is no way you can tell me that playing for Miami, Oakland and Detroit in the last three years in the state those franchises were in is the same as 02-05 minnesota and the "league figured him out"
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Old 07-19-2009, 08:01 PM    (permalink
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The league didn't just figure him out, that never happens, especially not after a player has one of the greatest seasons of a quarterback of all time. Yeah there were likely some issues at the beginning of the season when in the first two games he threw 8 total interceptions, he lost his Offensive Coordinator, he lost his centre and he lost his best receiver. He was out of his depth without someone who knew how to cater to him and without the guys around him who helped make him great.

Against Carolina the coaches were trying different things and it was working, the Culpepper was playing well and it wasn't until he went out of the game that Carolina began to dominate.

There is no way you can tell me that playing for Miami, Oakland and Detroit in the last three years in the state those franchises were in is the same as 02-05 minnesota and the "league figured him out"
I really don't have an obligation to convince you. It sounds like you have already made up your mind. Which is why I'm surprised you replied in the first place.

You have your opinion and I have mine.
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Old 07-19-2009, 09:53 PM    (permalink
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I'm not saying he's the best ever but he'll definitely be in the conversation by the time he retires... I think he's the most freak of a receiver ever but CJ/Fitz may end up being more impressive as far as that is concerned.
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Old 07-19-2009, 10:03 PM    (permalink
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I'm not saying he's the best ever but he'll definitely be in the conversation by the time he retires... I think he's the most freak of a receiver ever but CJ/Fitz may end up being more impressive as far as that is concerned.
Fitz has no shot at being as 'freakish' as Moss.

CJ might.
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Old 07-19-2009, 10:05 PM    (permalink
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Actually, Peyton great season when he set the record for TD passes changed how defenses defend the pass. Moss has had little impact on the game outside of a few great seasons.
I've heard defensive coaches say otherwise.
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Old 07-19-2009, 10:16 PM    (permalink
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Actually, Peyton great season when he set the record for TD passes changed how defenses defend the pass. Moss has had little impact on the game outside of a few great seasons.
Not at all true. Most elite WR prospects coming out of college now are in the mold of Moss i.e Andre Johnson, Calvin Johnson.

Teams devised schemes to stop Randy Moss. If you did not at least double cover him. He would take over the game and destroy the opposition. That sounds like a pretty big impact.
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Old 07-19-2009, 10:48 PM    (permalink
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I'm not saying he's the best ever but he'll definitely be in the conversation by the time he retires... I think he's the most freak of a receiver ever but CJ/Fitz may end up being more impressive as far as that is concerned.
Yeah Fitz is pretty average SIZE for a receiver. The things he can do with the ball is the freakish part. I think when he means Freakish when talking about Randy Moss is being tall and fast with freaky ball skills and hands.
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Old 07-19-2009, 10:49 PM    (permalink
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Honestly, I think Lawrence Taylor was a more influential player.
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Old 07-20-2009, 05:59 AM    (permalink
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Yeah Fitz is pretty average SIZE for a receiver. The things he can do with the ball is the freakish part. I think when he means Freakish when talking about Randy Moss is being tall and fast with freaky ball skills and hands.
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Old 07-20-2009, 02:46 PM    (permalink
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Randy Moss in his prime was more athletic than Calvin Johnson though
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Old 07-20-2009, 03:50 PM    (permalink
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Randy Moss in his prime was more athletic than Calvin Johnson though
As a football player? Not necessarily. Moss had more speed (and probably still does), but that doesn't mean he was a better overall athlete for football.
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Old 07-20-2009, 06:23 PM    (permalink
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As a football player? Not necessarily. Moss had more speed (and probably still does), but that doesn't mean he was a better overall athlete for football.
He was still a far better football player and therefore a far better weapon.

Everyone is all over Calvin's nuts, he's yet to really make his mark. Moss, Owens, Fitzgerald, Smith, White, Andre Johnson, are all better football players and receivers right now.
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Old 07-20-2009, 06:32 PM    (permalink
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i definitely wouldnt take White over CJ
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Old 07-20-2009, 06:39 PM    (permalink
Ness
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He was still a far better football player and therefore a far better weapon.

Everyone is all over Calvin's nuts, he's yet to really make his mark. Moss, Owens, Fitzgerald, Smith, White, Andre Johnson, are all better football players and receivers right now.
I never said I thought Randy Moss in his prime was a worse football player than Calvin Johnson. I just don't think he was an overall better athlete. Those are two different things.

As for Johnson and his hype, it's well deserved. I don't see how he hasn't "made his mark" yet. 78 receptions for over 1300 yards and 12 touchdowns on a team that didn't win a single game is very impressive. I can't remember the last receiver to put up such a good second season on a team that bad.
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Oh, my bad. Didn't realize SWDC was the pinnacle of class and grace.

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Old 07-20-2009, 09:26 PM    (permalink
BlindSite
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I never said I thought Randy Moss in his prime was a worse football player than Calvin Johnson. I just don't think he was an overall better athlete. Those are two different things.

As for Johnson and his hype, it's well deserved. I don't see how he hasn't "made his mark" yet. 78 receptions for over 1300 yards and 12 touchdowns on a team that didn't win a single game is very impressive. I can't remember the last receiver to put up such a good second season on a team that bad.
He had good numbers, no one is doubting that, but for you to be a special player you have to be part of something. Look at Smith's 05 season, he was the running game and the passing game and was the sole reason the team was able to be competitive. That unit across the offensive line and on the defense was full of holes and more than once Smith rescued the team.

Look at the impact TO had on Philly when he first arrived, the eagles went from competitive to dominant.

Yeah CJ is very good, but he's not yet at that height where he's better or equal with the guys I listed, he's well on his way and I think this season, or maybe the next we'll see him arrive, but he's not there yet.
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Old 07-21-2009, 01:31 AM    (permalink
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Calvin Johnson says hi.
I don't understand what you were trying to prove here.
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Old 07-21-2009, 04:36 AM    (permalink
yourfavestoner
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The league didn't just figure him out, that never happens, especially not after a player has one of the greatest seasons of a quarterback of all time. Yeah there were likely some issues at the beginning of the season when in the first two games he threw 8 total interceptions, he lost his Offensive Coordinator, he lost his centre and he lost his best receiver. He was out of his depth without someone who knew how to cater to him and without the guys around him who helped make him great.

Against Carolina the coaches were trying different things and it was working, the Culpepper was playing well and it wasn't until he went out of the game that Carolina began to dominate.

There is no way you can tell me that playing for Miami, Oakland and Detroit in the last three years in the state those franchises were in is the same as 02-05 minnesota and the "league figured him out"
The thing that gets most overlooked with Daunte's decline is that his mechanics went to absolute **** after he ripped his knee to shreds.
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