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Old 08-13-2009, 09:46 AM    (permalink
CC.SD
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I'd just like to kindly remind everyone that thought our offense was amazing, that we were only 16th in scoring. We could move the ball between the 20 yard lines all day but the red zone was a different story. So yes, while our defense and our ST's were the main issues, it isn't like our offense doesn't have any room for improvement. As great as our offense was last year, it'd be nice if we were top 5 in scoring.

Anyway, this offense is still going to be explosive even with Orton and we should be able to move the ball consistently. There won't be the "OMG did you see that throw" type of plays, but no one can legitimately argue that our offense can't be better than 16th in scoring this year with the talent we have.

Our offensive line is top 5.
Royal, Gaffney and Stokley all can get the job done as starters in the NFL. If Marshall gets past his court date with a not guilty verdict and stays healthy, we'll be that much better.

Our TE's are solid.
Our running backs should be good with the potential to be great.

Hillis is the most underrated player right now on our team. He can do so many things in this system.

People that think this team is going to be a 4 win or less are going to be disappointed. There is no way our defense can be as bad as it was last year. Its impossible. Removing Slowik pretty much guarantees that. We will field a competitive secondary, and we have two capable ILBS. Our OLB/D-Line are either unproven or unimpressive. So while it is possible we might still suck on defense, I'd be willing to bet we'll be much better than the defense we put out last year. - Which is actually one of the worst defenses I've ever seen on a NFL field purely because of the scheme.
There is no floor for a defense's suckitude when "zero pass rush" enters the equation. The 3-4 transition isn't easy.
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Old 08-13-2009, 10:26 AM    (permalink
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People have been way too hard on McDaniels so far. let him blow some games or something then rip him a new one but until then give him a chance.

He lost them a pro bowl star qb....whos a total dbag and whiney child and very arrogant for a guy whos played well but not otherworldly. i dont like cutler as a person as you can tell and i dont think his loss is as big a deal as most will make it out to be. McD's system is simpler and if Orton can continue to play his mediocre game this might work out. Orton will have better weapons in Denver than he had in Chicago and a friendly system so its not totally unlikely for him to do better.

The D was awful last year, so changing to a different D isnt likely to make it worse. Theyve already proven that theyre garbage in a 4-3 let them prove it in a 3-4 before you call them out on it.

I think this team can do 8-8 at least, theres more potential there than some are thinking.

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Old 08-13-2009, 11:32 AM    (permalink
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What makes you think that you have improved on offense by that much that you will be better than 16th in scoring? Losing Cutler is an extremely big hit
Many things actually. Better special teams, a better running game(we've added the talent here), better defense, better play calling, and better decision making in the red zone.

The Bears actually managed to be 14th in scoring last year. They had a better defense and special teams than Denver did but those two units certainly didn't carry the whole team.

Orton played pretty well in certain stretches of the season with worse talent and offensive coaching than he's going to have in Denver. Cutler is a good QB with incredible potential, but like I said when you're 16th in scoring but can move the ball down the field there is potential for being a lot lot better.

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There is no floor for a defense's suckitude when "zero pass rush" enters the equation. The 3-4 transition isn't easy.


Also, yes I do realize that transitioning to a 3-4 isn't something that is going to happen over night. But those that actually think Denver would have been a whole lot better staying in what Slowik's scheme had the defense doing over taking this opportunity to switch to a 3-4 are delusional. Slowik's scheme was scared football. Playing corners 10 yards off of receivers and safties 30 yards down the field was the definition of "I'm scared and I SUCK at coaching."

I don't expect us to be playoff contenders this year, but those that think we're only going to win 4 games really don't understand what Denver has in talent on O, and the amount of improvement we can make on STs and Defense based off of a few things.

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Old 08-13-2009, 11:37 AM    (permalink
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yes they didnt. Forte did. by a lot.
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Old 08-13-2009, 11:52 AM    (permalink
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We'll welcome Brandon Marshall with arms wide open
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Old 08-13-2009, 12:03 PM    (permalink
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Many things actually. Better special teams, a better running game(we've added the talent here), better defense, better play calling, and better decision making in the red zone.

The Bears actually managed to be 14th in scoring last year. They had a better defense and special teams than Denver did but those two units certainly didn't carry the whole team.

Orton played pretty well in certain stretches of the season with worse talent and offensive coaching than he's going to have in Denver. Cutler is a good QB with incredible potential, but like I said when you're 16th in scoring but can move the ball down the field there is potential for being a lot lot better.





Also, yes I do realize that transitioning to a 3-4 isn't something that is going to happen over night. But those that actually think Denver would have been a whole lot better staying in what Slowik's scheme had the defense doing over taking this opportunity to switch to a 3-4 are delusional. Slowik's scheme was scared football. Playing corners 10 yards off of receivers and safties 30 yards down the field was the definition of "I'm scared and I SUCK at coaching."

I don't expect us to be playoff contenders this year, but those that think we're only going to win 4 games really don't understand what Denver has in talent on O, and the amount of improvement we can make on STs and Defense based off of a few things.
Yes but when did you guys get anything on defense? I see you signed one guy over 300 lbs to be your nose tackle a second one is on injured reserve already. If you think you are going to get a ton of points when you are soft in the middle. I think most teams will run all over that. Also Shanahan wasn't a bad play caller did he make his mistakes sure but he was also a decent offensive playcaller.
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oh please. as if canadians even know what beer is.
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Old 08-13-2009, 12:26 PM    (permalink
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idk how u can call an improvement on ST before u even see them play.
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Old 08-13-2009, 04:09 PM    (permalink
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idk how u can call an improvement on ST before u even see them play.
for starters McDaniels actually gets them to practice special teams in training camp. Nice upgrade from shanahan.
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Old 08-13-2009, 06:43 PM    (permalink
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There is no floor for a defense's suckitude when "zero pass rush" enters the equation. The 3-4 transition isn't easy.
According to Football Outsiders they had the second worst defense since they started recording, about 20 years ago I think. Since rules have made defense much harder recently it is very likely their were still second worst of all time. In case your wondering Detroit was the worst.

When your that bad its very hard to sustain that level of ineptitude.

Your right, the transition to 3-4 is very hard. In Denver's case the transition to a competent 4-3 would be just as challenging.
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Old 08-13-2009, 06:47 PM    (permalink
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According to Football Outsiders they had the second worst defense since they started recording, about 20 years ago I think. Since rules have made defense much harder recently it is very likely their were still second worst of all time. In case your wondering Detroit was the worst.

When your that bad its very hard to sustain that level of ineptitude.

Your right, the transition to 3-4 is very hard. In Denver's case the transition to a competent 4-3 would be just as challenging.
Hm I don't know about that. At least sticking with a 4-3 would would avoid the inevitable learning curve that comes with changing out your base front, and they could use every bit of advantage they can get. Breaking in a new QB is hard enough if you ask me.

Then again, they may as well get as many growing pains out of the way this year as they can if they are really set on running a 4-3. I would assume that's their logic.
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Old 08-13-2009, 07:05 PM    (permalink
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Then again, they may as well get as many growing pains out of the way this year as they can if they are really set on running a 4-3. I would assume that's their logic.
I think there's some truth to that... along with McDaniels' desire to put his stamp on things.

The other thing is that the defense was utterly demoralized last year. One of the defensive leaders (DJ iirc) said something about feeling like second-class citizens on the team. Sometimes, when you've got that kind of ugly experience, change can be good.
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Old 08-13-2009, 08:20 PM    (permalink
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I got neg repped for expressing an opinion, how amusing ^_^

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Old 08-13-2009, 08:22 PM    (permalink
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Yes but when did you guys get anything on defense? I see you signed one guy over 300 lbs to be your nose tackle a second one is on injured reserve already. If you think you are going to get a ton of points when you are soft in the middle. I think most teams will run all over that. Also Shanahan wasn't a bad play caller did he make his mistakes sure but he was also a decent offensive playcaller.
Jeremy Bates called the plays last year. He was a decent play caller, but something needed to be fixed in the red zone. I can't blame it entirely on play calling as I do realize our RB situation sucked for more than half the season, but it could have been better.

Even though our D-Line might be inexperienced and might suck doesn't mean our defense will suck as bad as it did last year =)
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Old 08-13-2009, 08:25 PM    (permalink
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idk how u can call an improvement on ST before u even see them play.
Same could be said about the every team in the NFL couldn't it?

We don't really know what improvements a team will make until games are played do we? Even so my point is that it is possible that our special teams, defense and offense can play better this year. Will it happen? we'll see.
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Old 08-14-2009, 03:42 AM    (permalink
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Same could be said about the every team in the NFL couldn't it?

We don't really know what improvements a team will make until games are played do we? Even so my point is that it is possible that our special teams, defense and offense can play better this year. Will it happen? we'll see.
well offenses and defense you can at least somehow look at it from talent wise. Most of the guys on ST are rookies or backup players that change every year, and most of the rookies havent played that much of ST. So no, its not the same
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Old 08-14-2009, 08:51 AM    (permalink
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I think McDaniels is getting way too much hate. Yeah the Cutler thing was poorly handled, BUT Cutler whined and complained and then when they tried to make peace with him he wouldn't listen. That's when they decided to trade Cutler and he (Cutler) said he never wanted to be traded.

I thought he did a solid job signing veteran defenders that should help the team. Dawkins, Goodman, Hill, and Smith should help the secondary a lot. Andra Davis isn't a stud by any means, but he's been a productive LB in the 3-4 for a couple years. Yeah the defense will probably struggle A LOT this year because the front 7 is going through a drastic philosphy change from smaller quick LBs, to big thumpers.

Only thing I have to question is not really addressing the NT more than anything. As of right now, they'll be relying on Ronald Fields (who did not play well for the 9ers) and Chris Baker (a UDFA) as their primary NTs.
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Old 08-14-2009, 09:06 AM    (permalink
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Same could be said about the every team in the NFL couldn't it?

We don't really know what improvements a team will make until games are played do we? Even so my point is that it is possible that our special teams, defense and offense can play better this year. Will it happen? we'll see.
That has to be the worst argument I've ever heard on this forum. Why join a forum specially one like this if you're not willing to prognosticate and back up your prognostication. You said the D will be better. How? You said the ST was improved. How? You are saying that Josh McDanials + Kyle Orten + Knoshon Moreno => Shanahan and Cutler? Explain please.
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oh please. as if canadians even know what beer is.
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Old 08-14-2009, 12:11 PM    (permalink
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That has to be the worst argument I've ever heard on this forum. Why join a forum specially one like this if you're not willing to prognosticate and back up your prognostication. You said the D will be better. How? You said the ST was improved. How? You are saying that Josh McDanials + Kyle Orten + Knoshon Moreno => Shanahan and Cutler? Explain please.
If you go back and read my posts, I have explained why I think we can be better than 16th in scoring, and why our defense might not suck as bad this year.

As far as the special teams go, we weren't really that great in any area. Brett Kern and Matt Prater both have big legs but could be a bit more consistent. Last year was the first full year by both of these players, going into their second year I expect more consistency. One of the reasons why our coverage units weren't that great last year is because we were so inconsistent on the players we had playing special teams. If we get a bit more lucky with injuries, and don't sign a new player every week that's going to be playing special teams we might actually be able to improve.

The argument you quoted was merely to point out how bad of an argument that was against why our ST's could be better. At this point no one has seen the team play a regular season game, so yeah its a poor argument to make and thats kind what I was trying to say. When someone says "Oh you well act like they're going to be good when they haven't played a game yet". I could say the exact same thing in "Oh well you act like this specific team or unit is going to suck when they haven't even played yet".

If you really want my reasoning on why our offense can still be good this year, you can go back and read my previous posts. In fact I'm not really saying Orton & McDaniels will be equal to or better than Cutler and Shanahan. I am however giving reasoning on why they might be able to lead a good offense. It is reasonable to say that Orton, McDaniels and the offense can be good without saying they were as good as last years offense in the passing game. It is also reasonable to say we might be better than 16th in overall scoring if we get better play from our ST's, defense and running backs. Being less predictable and having a more balanced offense might also be better. What's so bad about that line of thinking?

If you're too lazy to go back and read why I think what I think here are some cliff notes:

What could happen to make us better than 16th in scoring

- Better/Healthy stable of running backs
- Better play calling by McDaniels in red zone
- Better overall starting field position
- More consistent field goal unit
- More defensive turnovers because of better scheme, and more talent in the secondary.
- Not having the worst defensive coordinator of all time coaching a "defense"

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Old 08-14-2009, 01:22 PM    (permalink
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What makes you think that you have improved on offense by that much that you will be better than 16th in scoring? Losing Cutler is an extremely big hit
They should have a running game this year though. Don't forget about Ryan Clady and Ryan Harris as some of the best young OTs out there. Scheffler is a really good pass catching TE and if Royal can build on his rookie season then watch out. I still like this offense.
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Old 08-14-2009, 03:28 PM    (permalink
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They should have a running game this year though. Don't forget about Ryan Clady and Ryan Harris as some of the best young OTs out there. Scheffler is a really good pass catching TE and if Royal can build on his rookie season then watch out. I still like this offense.
QFT. Orton is surrounded by a very capable offense. The OL is solid, with a nice mix of youth and veteran experience. The passing game should be very versatile - a nice set of receivers to work with and the backs can all catch the ball pretty well. The addition of Moreno and Quinn via the draft certainly doesn't hurt the running game.

Now all we need is for Orton to hold up his end of the deal and show he can efficiently and effectively direct the attack.
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Old 08-15-2009, 08:48 AM    (permalink
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i just wanted to say, if people thought the broncos depth chart was messed up, go look at the chiefs where dwayne bowe and bobby engram are listed as third team receivers with Devard Darling and Terrance Copper as the starters and Mark Bradley and Amani Toomer also listed ahead of Bowe and Engram.

i think its pretty obvious that preseason depth charts mean next to nothing.
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Old 08-17-2009, 11:26 AM    (permalink
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This thread is awesome. Waaahhhh McDaniels hurt my feelings as a fan. Waaahhhh McDaniels hurt Brandon Marshall's feelings, Moss' feelings and got Jay Cutler's panties so bunched up they broke his vagina.

Holy drama queens . . . yet no Broncos fans seem willing to say "holy **** we had a truckload of prima donna bitches on our squad" and good riddance.

The Cutler situation was a two way drama show that exposed Cutler as a wide receiver-esque crybaby and McDaniels as a green HC. None of the other things mentioned in the first post have any value.

A pre-preseason depth chart? Who the **** cares?

Damning his move from one D scheme to another when the Broncos clearly couldn't handle the 4-3 . . . genius.

Deeming the entire draft a failure before a single exhibition game? Hey man, pass the crystal ball - or at least tell me tomorrow night's winnig powerball numbers.
I don't give a **** if Cutler and Marshall are "Prima Donna bitches". When they're the 2 most talented players on the team, it's probably not a good idea to piss them off. Cutler was the best QB in the NFL 25 or under, and the only young WR that's better than Marshall is Calvin Johnson, off the top of my head. You don't piss those guys off, considering them, Royal and the OL were the only bright spots of last season. Now you're left with an OL that is pretty good(pretty good becomes "******* amazing" when adjusted for how bad Denver is). We don't know how they're gonna handle blocking for Orton. Blocking for Cutler made them look better than they were. They certainly weren't bad, but Cutler is an amazing sack dodger. It's every bit as amazing as his arm strength.

You're right, we sucked in the 4-3... but the 4-3 is what that entire defense was geared towards. I don't think there's a single returning front 7 player who is geared to a 3-4. Maybe DJ Williams if he's playing OLB. But other than that, the whole defense is clueless and nobody did anything to fix the middle of it. It's broken, and giving it a new paintjob won't do ****.
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Old 08-17-2009, 11:30 AM    (permalink
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Many things actually. Better special teams, a better running game(we've added the talent here), better defense, better play calling, and better decision making in the red zone.

The Bears actually managed to be 14th in scoring last year. They had a better defense and special teams than Denver did but those two units certainly didn't carry the whole team.

Orton played pretty well in certain stretches of the season with worse talent and offensive coaching than he's going to have in Denver. Cutler is a good QB with incredible potential, but like I said when you're 16th in scoring but can move the ball down the field there is potential for being a lot lot better.





Also, yes I do realize that transitioning to a 3-4 isn't something that is going to happen over night. But those that actually think Denver would have been a whole lot better staying in what Slowik's scheme had the defense doing over taking this opportunity to switch to a 3-4 are delusional. Slowik's scheme was scared football. Playing corners 10 yards off of receivers and safties 30 yards down the field was the definition of "I'm scared and I SUCK at coaching."

I don't expect us to be playoff contenders this year, but those that think we're only going to win 4 games really don't understand what Denver has in talent on O, and the amount of improvement we can make on STs and Defense based off of a few things.
We should have been top 5 in scoring this year coming up, but McDaniels ****** up by letting Cutler go. As ******** as McDaniels has been, Shanahan needed to go, his playcalling down there was awful, and our OL never could get any push in the running game. But we ran 32 dive probably 60% of the time because Shanahan never noticed. Cutler rollouts were a great weapon but were extremely underutilized down there. We just couldn't pound it in. Knowshon will hopefully be dangerous, but look at that, now we have an alcoholic ******* neckbeard instead of the best QB in the NFL 25 or under. :(
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Old 08-17-2009, 11:46 AM    (permalink
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You're right, we sucked in the 4-3... but the 4-3 is what that entire defense was geared towards. I don't think there's a single returning front 7 player who is geared to a 3-4. Maybe DJ Williams if he's playing OLB. But other than that, the whole defense is clueless and nobody did anything to fix the middle of it. It's broken, and giving it a new paintjob won't do ****.
Switching from the 4-3 to the 3-4 is hardly giving it a new paint job. It's more like taking it completely apart and building something new. The defense was bad last year, nobody disputes that. How is it switching defensive schemes is such a bad thing? So the crappy players from the 4-3 defense are still comfortable playing in the 4-3 and still playing crappy? Either way you have to bring in new personnel, and it is not a quick fix, so changing schemes is not the worst thing in the world to do. I will agree entirely that they should have gotten more stout at ILB and on the DL, but again, can't do everything in one year.
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Old 08-17-2009, 11:49 AM    (permalink
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Well, they just traded for L. Smith (from the Pats) to add some depth and 3-4 experience to that line.
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