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Old 08-12-2009, 08:39 AM    (permalink
Shiver
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Default QB or Supporting Cast?

I think we will have a good look at which makes the other better based on the performance of this man:



He has been a mediocre QB his entire career, he actually had "decent" stats last year. Now he will be on an offense that is:

1) QB friendly, lots of screens and quick passes,
2) Has legitimate weapons like Marshall, Royal, Scheffler,
3) Has one of the best offensive lines in football, he may not even be touched by a defensive lineman.

How much is QB performance based on the supporting cast? I guess we will find out.
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Old 08-12-2009, 08:50 AM    (permalink
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shiver View Post
I think we will have a good look at which makes the other better based on the performance of this man:



He has been a mediocre QB his entire career, he actually had "decent" stats last year. Now he will be on an offense that is:

1) QB friendly, lots of screens and quick passes,
2) Has legitimate weapons like Marshall, Royal, Scheffler,
3) Has one of the best offensive lines in football, he may not even be touched by a defensive lineman.

How much is QB performance based on the supporting cast? I guess we will find out.
Good topic! Plus rep for you!

I think it's both. The QB has to be talented enough to play and start in the NFL. After that you have to have a system that's designed very well. By that I mean.

1. Terminology for the system
2. Routes for the skill guys
3. Progressions and reads for the QB.


Those are just 3 out of a lot of different variables. But you want it to be Qb friendly and make sense.. For instance..

You can't have 3 step drop if all the routes are deep routes, ie vertical stretch concept. On the same token you are not going to run a 7 step drop and have everyone run slants.. So the # of drops should be coorelated to the routes. And that effects pass protection to a certain extent too. So once all that is designed well, you need to have an OC AND position coaches who can teach it. If they are not good teachers than right away you have a problem. Another aspect is how organized is the OC.. How does he organize his plays on his call sheet? Who much does the HC butt in?

Those are just some of the variables when it comes to system design and implementation. Now you have to have a decent to great cast to surround that QB so it makes his life easier based on the individual 1 on 1 matchups.

I would say it's both when you analyze it. For Broncos specific it will be interesting to see what they run now. I know I will be interested to break some games down to get an idea of what they are running in their running game, and passing game.

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Old 08-12-2009, 09:03 AM    (permalink
Gay Ork Wang
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Im gonna miss Orton somehow
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Old 08-12-2009, 01:40 PM    (permalink
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Eli Manning says it's the supporting cast.
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Old 08-12-2009, 01:51 PM    (permalink
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Tom Brady says why choose when you can have both?
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Old 08-12-2009, 01:52 PM    (permalink
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Im gonna miss Orton somehow
No we're not. An efficient system may allow him to look like an efficient QB, but he's never once flashed the franchise QB material that Cutler has.

Good luck Denver, seriously. Orton is unlikely to ever truly "lose" you a game, but he's never going to do anything to "win" you one either.
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Old 08-12-2009, 01:57 PM    (permalink
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The interesting thing about QB is that it is regarded as the most important position in professional sports yet no player in any sport is more dependent on the players around him than the Quarterback.

A pitcher can get bad hitting but if he's pitching lights out, they can still win. Same type of thing with a goalie. A Quarterback needs his O-Line to give him time, needs his WR's to get seperation and catch the ball, needs the RB to pick up blitzes and run the ball successfuly to take off pressure, needs good play calling. If one of those things break down, the whole thing breaks down which is why football is the ultimate team game. Yes a QB can carry a team, but to a large extent, the team carries the QB no matter who it is.
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Old 08-12-2009, 02:08 PM    (permalink
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Thinking Orton can pull a Mark Rypien? I'd honestly be very surprised. He's going to a team with a lot of pieces in place, but the offense is new and he's going to have to build chemistry with new receivers. And like someone else said, he comes off to me as the player that won't really lose you a game, but not necessarily win you one either. I just don't see it happening for the Broncos this year.
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Old 08-12-2009, 02:09 PM    (permalink
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I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that 10 players do more for one than one does for 10. No one position is as important as QB, however.
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Old 08-12-2009, 02:42 PM    (permalink
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I think Jay Cutler is included in this as well.

Let's see how well Cutler does in Chicago instead of Denver.
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Old 08-12-2009, 02:46 PM    (permalink
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Cutler should be inlcuded with his move to Chicago.

This guy will be a good study in that area, too.





edit: Geo beat me to the Cutler mention as I took too long picking a picture of Cassel.
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Old 08-12-2009, 02:46 PM    (permalink
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I think its 60-40 towards the supporting cast. A qb can be as great as anyone, but you can not win football games on your own. However, a qb has to have the mindset of when and where to place the ball, but without a supporting cast, you can not do that.
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Old 08-12-2009, 03:15 PM    (permalink
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There are examples of both. Brady had some pretty mediocre receivers for years until Moss and Welker came on board. On the other end of the spectrum, some QB's look much better than they actually are because of their surrounding talent. Delhomme comes to mind with Smith, or Culpepper when he has Moss. No need to re-hash it, but look at the Eli thread for some of that whole debate.
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Old 08-12-2009, 05:06 PM    (permalink
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edit: Geo beat me to the Cutler mention as I took too long picking a picture of Cassel.
Those pics are an awesome touch though. Cassel should be included as well.

Cassel was the most-sacked QB last season and he wasn't effective in the red zone either. Granted it was his first season as a starter since high school. But that was with the veteran-laden Patriots except for maybe the right tackle.

(Say something about the Patriots/Brady that they can win 11 games with a QB who didn't start since high school?)

Maybe Haley can help him get rid of the ball quicker, and he could improve with the increased experience.

But the above is why I'm avoiding Cassel in fantasy football this year, I want to see how he looks for a season first.
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Old 08-12-2009, 08:12 PM    (permalink
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No we're not. An efficient system may allow him to look like an efficient QB, but he's never once flashed the franchise QB material that Cutler has.

Good luck Denver, seriously. Orton is unlikely to ever truly "lose" you a game, but he's never going to do anything to "win" you one either.
no, i mean i miss his face. not the playing style
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Old 08-13-2009, 12:03 AM    (permalink
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People act like the Patriots didn't drop off much last year. They went from almost being 19-0 to 11-5 and not making the playoffs...

Is that totally because Brady got injured and Cassel started. Probably not, but it's pretty clear that Cassel, despite playing well, was no Brady.
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Old 08-13-2009, 12:14 AM    (permalink
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Granted it was his first season as a starter since high school.
Everytime i think about that i find it absolutely mind boggling.
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Old 08-13-2009, 12:34 AM    (permalink
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The problem is that the current perception of Orton skews negative because of how terrible his supporting cast in Chicago was.
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Old 08-13-2009, 12:59 AM    (permalink
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The problem is that the current perception of Orton skews negative because of how terrible his supporting cast in Chicago was.
I half agree, because the Wrs given to him were never very good. Basically the garbage heap Wrs were starting for the Bears last year...yet he pulled of a pretty decent season. The other half is that he has some things to work on, but its mostly being more of an offensive player than a game control Qb. I really like Orton, he works hard and wont lose you a game. I have seen that he wont win a game either, but he showed last year before his injury that he has the ability to show some offensive power AND he can take the team down the field to win a game (ATL even though we lost it was not Ortons fault). Orton put the team in a few positions to win last year, but playcalling after we got the lead was so conservative that we lost (I wanna say Carolina game).

If I were Bronco fans, I would be mildly happy because Orton is not a terrible QB. He'll suprise some people this year.
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Old 08-13-2009, 08:55 AM    (permalink
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If you examine who makes the playoffs and who doesn't year in and year out, you will find that the NFL is a QB/schedule league. If you have a franchise QB, there is a very good chance that your team will make the playoffs nearly every year, if your team is a well run organization. If your team lacks a franchise QB or isn't a well run organization, you will be lucky to make the playoffs once every 4 years.
Great QB's make the players around them better and most are great through their leadership, mental toughness, quick release and great throwing ability.
IMO, you could put a Brady or a Peyton on any team in the NFL that is a well run organization, and you would find their new team on top of the pile no matter how weak their personnel is. There is a reason why NFL GM's continually draft QB's with the #1 overall pick even though they are often flops, each NFL GM knows that if he strikes it rich, his team will be a SB contender for at least a decade. A team can have a great OL and great WR's but without a franchise QB, it isn't going too far in the playoffs and certainly will never make it back to playoffs anytime soon. Denver fans will quickly discover what it means to lose a franchise QB and aren't likely to see the playoffs until Cutler is replace by another franchise QB.
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Old 08-13-2009, 09:07 AM    (permalink
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This guy will be a good study in that area, too.

He will be fine he has a Toomer a well dressed Toomer.:)
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Old 08-13-2009, 09:41 AM    (permalink
Seamus2602
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A great Quarterback can suceed, to a high level, without the supporting cast. It is rarer for a poor Quarterback to suceed with the supporting cast. Look at the Superbowl winning Quarterbacks from this decade.

Ben Roethlisberger
Eli Manning
Peyton Manning
Ben Roethlisberger
Tom Brady
Tom Brady
Brad Johnson
Tom Brady
Trent Dilfer
Kurt Warner

There you have it. Brad Johnson is the last not great Quarterback to win the Superbowl, and only two aren't considered to be very good Quarterbacks.

A team will do well with a poor Quarterback as long as they are very good in most other areas (like New England last year). A great Quarterback with a poor team (like New England at the start of the decade) will do better.
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In Football the object is for the Field General to be on target with his aerial assault, riddling the Defence by hitting his Receivers with deadly accuracy, in spite of the Blitz, even if he has to use the Shotgun. With short bullet passes and long bombs he marches his troops into enemy territory, balancing this aerial assault with a sustained ground attack which punches holes in the forward wall of the enemy’s Defensive Line.

In Baseball the object is to go home and be safe.
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Old 08-13-2009, 09:55 AM    (permalink
FlyingElvis
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Those pics are an awesome touch though. Cassel should be included as well.

Cassel was the most-sacked QB last season and he wasn't effective in the red zone either. Granted it was his first season as a starter since high school. But that was with the veteran-laden Patriots except for maybe the right tackle.

(Say something about the Patriots/Brady that they can win 11 games with a QB who didn't start since high school?)

Maybe Haley can help him get rid of the ball quicker, and he could improve with the increased experience.

But the above is why I'm avoiding Cassel in fantasy football this year, I want to see how he looks for a season first.
I'm not shying away, but mine are keeper leagues. He is also going late enough to be considered a flier and I'm big on drafting 3 QBs. That round 13 or 14 WR is not likely to ever see the starting lineup anyway, so why not?

He improved on a weekly basis. It was pretty wild to watch actually, and I think the Chiefs will be very happy with the trade as long as they expect exactly what you mention - a guy who can get it done but still has some improvements to make. All of which is just a matter of experience. Just ask Randy - though I doubt he'll admit to his curios case of gator arms in the first 2 weeks after Brady went down. Once he saw some hope he started playing hard again. lol
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He will be fine he has a Toomer a well dressed Toomer.:)
Love that signing. Bowe w/Bradley (developing fairly well) and Toomer is a nice 3wr set, imo.
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Old 08-13-2009, 10:14 AM    (permalink
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I like the Chiefs depth at WR alot better then most I'm more worried about their OL.
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Old 08-13-2009, 10:42 AM    (permalink
FlyingElvis
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I like them, too. In the context of this thread the WRs are still a downgrade in the supporting cast. OL is, as well and the D . . . well, the Pats were ok but not great last year which is still probably better than what KC fielded in 08.

For Orton it's a clear upgrade at WR, close enough to call it even at OL, and a major downgrade on the defensive side of the ball.

Cutler has a clear downgrade at WR, even OL and major upgrade on D.

Those two really make it a more comparable scenario, imo. Cassel's situation is a little tougher to compare because you can't really mark him up against Brady and the Pats offense overall is more experienced & proven than KC's.
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