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Old 08-13-2009, 12:29 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by FlyingElvis View Post
Cutler has a clear downgrade at WR, even OL and major upgrade on D.
Tis true, but he has an upgrade at TE and at RB, both positions that have some depth on this roster which will hopefully give him some help on the offensive side of the ball.
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Despite looking better against an underachieving Eagles team, I still think the Bears are one of the worst teams in the NFL. I smell a blowout victory by the Lions this week and a division sweep.
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Old 08-13-2009, 12:34 PM    (permalink
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Tis true, but he has an upgrade at TE and at RB, both positions that have some depth on this roster which will hopefully give him some help on the offensive side of the ball.
Correct. I'm not sure how I managed to overlook the RB position.

TE I'd say is close, although I'll concede Olsen is the better talent & higher upside. However, the production was in favor of Scheff last year (645 yds vs. 574) despite missing 3 games, so I'm not quite willing to call that one just yet.
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Old 08-13-2009, 12:35 PM    (permalink
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not just looking at Olsen, Clark is a very good TE and above average, i believe he leads the TEs in YPC over the last few years.
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Old 08-13-2009, 01:00 PM    (permalink
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A good point . . .





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Old 10-13-2009, 04:49 PM    (permalink
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I think we will have a good look at which makes the other better based on the performance of this man:



He has been a mediocre QB his entire career, he actually had "decent" stats last year. Now he will be on an offense that is:

1) QB friendly, lots of screens and quick passes,
2) Has legitimate weapons like Marshall, Royal, Scheffler,
3) Has one of the best offensive lines in football, he may not even be touched by a defensive lineman.

How much is QB performance based on the supporting cast? I guess we will find out.
I think it is safe to say supporting cast helps a lot.

1,236 passing yards
63% completion percentage (by far the highest of his career)
7-1 TD/INT ratio
97.4 Passer Rating
5-0 Team, two games ahead of the Chargers
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Old 10-13-2009, 05:18 PM    (permalink
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Drew Brees says that defense also helps with how you are looked at as a qb
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Old 10-13-2009, 05:33 PM    (permalink
Gay Ork Wang
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What has ever happened to Eddie Royal
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Old 10-13-2009, 08:27 PM    (permalink
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It has mostly to do with the supporting cast.

Let's look first at Tom Brady. The guy was a great quarterback with average/below average receivers and a non-existent running game. Then he gets Randy Moss and Wes Welker and he puts up one of, if not, the greatest single season by a quarterback.

Then look at Peyton Manning. He's been one of the best quarterbacks in football his whole career. However, the Colts have constantly been surrounding him with great talent. That's not to say he wouldn't be good without Wayne, Clark, etc. Does anyone think he'd be having MVP type seasons if he played for Oakland or St. Louis?

No matter how good a quarterback is, they can only perform (statistically) as well as their supporting cast lets them. If your offensive line is a revolving door and your receivers can't run routes or create separation you can't succeed. On the other hand, any competent quarterback can put up good numbers if he is protected well and has receivers that can get open.
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Old 10-13-2009, 08:31 PM    (permalink
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Eddie Royal tore it up last week with a 9 reception 90 yard game. I think he was hampered by an injury and it looking back to his true amazingness form.

If Cassel had orton's O line the Chiefs would be 5-0.
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Old 10-13-2009, 08:38 PM    (permalink
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It has mostly to do with the supporting cast.

Let's look first at Tom Brady. The guy was a great quarterback with average/below average receivers and a non-existent running game. Then he gets Randy Moss and Wes Welker and he puts up one of, if not, the greatest single season by a quarterback.
Tom Brady was an average/above average qb with post season success before getting Welker/Moss. He was never amazing until that one season. The fact that his TD-INT ratio is one of the best ever helps but that only godly stat he had before 2007.

Then look at Peyton Manning. He's been one of the best quarterbacks in football his whole career. However, the Colts have constantly been surrounding him with great talent. That's not to say he wouldn't be good without Wayne, Clark, etc. Does anyone think he'd be having MVP type seasons if he played for Oakland or St. Louis?
P-L, I don't want to make this a Manning/brady debate but the Colts were the Rams before they got Manning. Manning is the reason, and only reason they are they are nd have been the last 10 years. it can be argued that Manning made Harrison who he is, Wayne who he is and Clark who he is. He has made Austin Colle and Pierre Garcon look better than Welker and Moss thisy ear. Every season of his career has Manning had had more than 62 comp %(other than his rookie year), 3500 yards, 25 TDs. Manning could go the the Ram right now and make them a 8-8 team, could Tom? **** NO! Prove me wrong please?

No matter how good a quarterback is, they can only perform (statistically) as well as their supporting cast lets them. If your offensive line is a revolving door and your receivers can't run routes or create separation you can't succeed. On the other hand, any competent quarterback can put up good numbers if he is protected well and has receivers that can get open.
To me, manning is the only exception to the rule. He could go to he Rams, the Browns and make them at least an 8-8 team. I have never seen a player in any team sport do what he does. I am not saying he is the goat. But you can put him on any team and they will matter.
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Old 10-13-2009, 09:07 PM    (permalink
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So then why did you turn it into a Manning and Brady debate?

I should've have known this would happen when I picked those two as my examples. I wasn't trying to compare the two. I just used them both as examples because they are the top two players at their position.

I know there will be a lot of disagreement, but I don't believe that quarterbacks can make their receivers significantly better. Does it help when you have a quarterback that throws you the ball accurately? Absolutely. However, the receiver still needs to run good routes and get separation (in order for the quarterback to decide to throw him the ball). Once the quarterback decides to throw him the ball, the receiver has to actually catch it. A good quarterback helps his receivers, but not nearly as much as a good receiver helps a quarterback. A good receiver can bail out a quarterback that makes a bad pass, usually. A good quarterback cannot bail out a receiver who drops the ball or can't get separation from the defender.



Although this doesn't have to do with the topic at hand, I just wanted to respond to your thoughts that Manning could make the Rams or Browns an 8-8 team. First you said that the Colts were the Rams before they got Manning. Well that may be true, but Manning didn't turn them into an 8-8 team in his first year. He went 3-13 in his rookie season. Then they drafted Edgerrin James the following year and Reggie Wayne, Ryan Diem, and Rick DeMulling two years later. Manning was able to turn the Colts around quickly (13-3 in his second year), but he also had help. Edgerrin James ran for 1500 yards and 13 TD that year. The defense also stepped up with 41 sacks, 10 interceptions, and 14 forced fumbles.

Obviously, a quarterback of Manning or Brady would make a team like the Rams better but not 5-8 wins better. No matter who is playing quarterback, St. Louis doesn't have the offensive line or defense to win 8 games.
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Old 10-13-2009, 09:22 PM    (permalink
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The fact that people actually argue who is more important between the QB and the other 10 players on the field tells you that QB is easily the most important single position.
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Old 10-13-2009, 10:02 PM    (permalink
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QB QB QB.

For Orton, we need to get one thing straight: He is far from a terrible QB. Terrible QBs are afraid to move the ball, they make bad decisions, and ultimately never do anything right. Orton is actually very solid. He's able to move the ball efficiently down the field, he does not turn the ball over, and we just saw him lead a 98-yard drive against the Patriots. Bad QBs don't do that.

Bad QBs make their supporting cast look terrible. Take David Carr for example. I think one year, Carr was getting shitkicked again, and he got pulled or hurt or something. Sage Rosenfels, I think(who is himself not a great QB by any means), came in and performed much, much better. Let's be real here. As bad as Houston's OL got the rep of being, that was all David Carr. He is/was a terrible quarterback. Great QBs make the OL look better than it is. Look at Peyton Manning, Tom Brady, Jay Cutler(at the very least on his way to becoming aforementioned great QB). They all move well in the pocket and get rid of the ball fast, making their OL's job that much easier.

QB. All day, every day.
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Old 10-13-2009, 10:10 PM    (permalink
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IMO, its got to be supporting cast and system. You can put Peyton on the Raiders, Rams or Browns and he would be struggling. A good QB needs weapons (preferably a good running attack and a TE who can catch in the flats) and a good line.
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Old 10-13-2009, 10:19 PM    (permalink
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I'll rephrase my argument by saying great QB with terrible supporting cast>>terrible QB with great supporting cast.
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Old 10-13-2009, 10:38 PM    (permalink
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Supporting cast IMO is by far more important. I'll use Dilfer and the '00 Ravens as my prime example.
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Old 10-13-2009, 10:41 PM    (permalink
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Supporting cast IMO is by far more important. I'll use Dilfer and the '00 Ravens as my prime example.
But the thing is, the Ravens supporting cast never made Dilfer look like something he wasn't.
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Old 10-13-2009, 10:44 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by slightlyabroncosfan View Post
But the thing is, the Ravens supporting cast never made Dilfer look like something he wasn't.
What I'm trying to say is that a supporting cast is more important...a QB doesn't have to be the focal point of a team. Dilfer did his job but was never looked upon to lead the team. They ran Jamaal Lewis and the D. All they had Dilfer do was hand-off and throw when it was absolutely neccessary.
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Old 10-13-2009, 10:52 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by slightlyabroncosfan View Post
I'll rephrase my argument by saying great QB with terrible supporting cast>>terrible QB with great supporting cast.
Maybe I'm mistaken, but wasn't Troy Aikman horrible before Dallas revamped their entire offense?
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Old 10-14-2009, 01:36 AM    (permalink
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Maybe I'm mistaken, but wasn't Troy Aikman horrible before Dallas revamped their entire offense?
I don't want to start an argument here, but Aikman was never as great as the other elite QBs of the modern era. Hard to make an argument around him either way.
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Old 10-14-2009, 10:31 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by raiderz4life View Post
What I'm trying to say is that a supporting cast is more important...a QB doesn't have to be the focal point of a team. Dilfer did his job but was never looked upon to lead the team. They ran Jamaal Lewis and the D. All they had Dilfer do was hand-off and throw when it was absolutely neccessary.
And how often did Dilfer lead Baltimore into the playoffs??? One fluke doesn't prove your point. Baltimore still had great personnel but never saw the Super Bowl again??? Peyton and Brady started out on teams that weren't loaded and carried them to the Super Bowl. Peyton and Brady have taken their teams to the playoffs every year except one when Brady got hurt. Baltimore's HC got fired because his great personnel couldn't repeat without a top QB and couldn't consistently even make the playoffs without one.
According to the 2000's, 2 mediocre QB out of nine times made it to the SB while 7 franchise QB's also made it. That makes the odds 78% for franchise QB's and 22 % for mediocre QB's. If you want your team to try the 22% method, go for it, I'd chose the 78% method myself and that is why NFL GM have overwhelmingly drafted QB's with the 1st overall pick. Go back 20 years and check for yourself.
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Old 10-14-2009, 12:52 PM    (permalink
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My point is simple: a great supporting cast cannot make a bad QB look good. But a mediocre QB, like Kyle Orton, can look like a great player in a system that Denver has. Kyle Orton had 3,000 yards, 18-12 TD/INT in Chicago, not bad but certainly not impressive. Now he has one of the best O-Lines, Brandon Marshall, Knowshon Moreno, he looks like an entirely different player.
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Old 10-14-2009, 12:56 PM    (permalink
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My point is simple: a great supporting cast cannot make a bad QB look good. But a mediocre QB, like Kyle Orton, can look like a great player in a system that Denver has. Kyle Orton had 3,000 yards, 18-12 TD/INT in Chicago, not bad but certainly not impressive. Now he has one of the best O-Lines, Brandon Marshall, Knowshon Moreno, he looks like an entirely different player.
Good for him. Also, what is the difference between the two offensive systems? What has the OC done to help call/design plays for Orton's skill set? Who is his QB coach? What drills does he have them do compared to the Qb coach in Chicago?

So while you are correct, the questions above, are questions which also play a big factor for a QB as well.
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Old 10-14-2009, 12:58 PM    (permalink
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Then look at Peyton Manning. He's been one of the best quarterbacks in football his whole career. However, the Colts have constantly been surrounding him with great talent. That's not to say he wouldn't be good without Wayne, Clark, etc. Does anyone think he'd be having MVP type seasons if he played for Oakland or St. Louis?

No matter how good a quarterback is, they can only perform (statistically) as well as their supporting cast lets them. If your offensive line is a revolving door and your receivers can't run routes or create separation you can't succeed. On the other hand, any competent quarterback can put up good numbers if he is protected well and has receivers that can get open.
Hence why it's a team game. I agree completely...

Suppose Peyton spent his first 3 years behind Rich Gannon, and then ended up on the Colts... Would he be anywhere near the QB he is today?
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Old 10-14-2009, 01:03 PM    (permalink
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And how often did Dilfer lead Baltimore into the playoffs??? One fluke doesn't prove your point. Baltimore still had great personnel but never saw the Super Bowl again??? Peyton and Brady started out on teams that weren't loaded and carried them to the Super Bowl. Peyton and Brady have taken their teams to the playoffs every year except one when Brady got hurt. Baltimore's HC got fired because his great personnel couldn't repeat without a top QB and couldn't consistently even make the playoffs without one.
According to the 2000's, 2 mediocre QB out of nine times made it to the SB while 7 franchise QB's also made it. That makes the odds 78% for franchise QB's and 22 % for mediocre QB's. If you want your team to try the 22% method, go for it, I'd chose the 78% method myself and that is why NFL GM have overwhelmingly drafted QB's with the 1st overall pick. Go back 20 years and check for yourself.
How many superbowls has Peyton been to? The Answer is just as many as that Baltimore defense has been to.

As for the number of high caliber QBs who've one the superbowl I'd like to see how many high caliber defenses one the superbowl vs mediocre defenses, same for running games. Having a high caliber QB is important, but having the supporting cast is just as important. Otherwise the Cutlerzz would be superbowl contenders.
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