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View Poll Results: Who do you think is going to win the NFC East?
Dallas Cowboys 11 14.29%
New York Giants 29 37.66%
Philadelphia Eagles 32 41.56%
Washington Redskins 5 6.49%
Voters: 77. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 08-21-2009, 01:38 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Shockey+Manning=Shocking View Post
I disagree with that. If you can strike a good balance or even be in a run heavy offense, with creative passing concepts, you can survive in this league. But again there are so many variables to consider, such as system, OC, position coaches, and then players. I think like everything else in the NFL there are fads and trends but overall proven systems tend to stick around. I think a running team or a passing team can survive if they can do the other to a competent level.
Oh, no doubt....but what's a competent level?


In the past, the reality was simply that if you were able to run at an elite level and stop the run at an elite level, you would have a chance to win it all. Look at the Vikings and you see that model no longer bears out.



But looking at the Colts, a team that was an elite passing offense and passing defense, you see them have much more success even when they were struggling to run defend.

Not saying that run heavy teams can't win, but they still have to be able to pass the ball competently. And by competently I mean have a guy who is a threat to go for 100 yards every time he steps on the field. The last team to win without a guy like that was NE, and they had an elite QB, elite special teams, an elite run defense, and an elite pass defense. Even with all that, they needed a solid stable of WRs with 4 "decent to good" guys. And they won every SB by 3 points. Their margin for error was microscopic.

Just look at last season. The two regular season champs were both run heavy offenses that also had strong run defenses. Both lost their first playoff game.

The eventual conference champions were both pass heavy teams, as were 3 of the 4 teams that played in the conference championship game. All the evidence is there. You need to be able to pass the ball well to win at the highest level in this league.
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Old 08-21-2009, 01:49 PM    (permalink
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Oh, no doubt....but what's a competent level?


In the past, the reality was simply that if you were able to run at an elite level and stop the run at an elite level, you would have a chance to win it all. Look at the Vikings and you see that model no longer bears out.



But looking at the Colts, a team that was an elite passing offense and passing defense, you see them have much more success even when they were struggling to run defend.

Not saying that run heavy teams can't win, but they still have to be able to pass the ball competently. And by competently I mean have a guy who is a threat to go for 100 yards every time he steps on the field. The last team to win without a guy like that was NE, and they had an elite QB, elite special teams, an elite run defense, and an elite pass defense. Even with all that, they needed a solid stable of WRs with 4 "decent to good" guys. And they won every SB by 3 points. Their margin for error was microscopic.

Just look at last season. The two regular season champs were both run heavy offenses that also had strong run defenses. Both lost their first playoff game.

The eventual conference champions were both pass heavy teams, as were 3 of the 4 teams that played in the conference championship game. All the evidence is there. You need to be able to pass the ball well to win at the highest level in this league.


Competent level to me is where you can be effective doing it, be it pass or run, so that your passing or running concepts can still produce. The Vikings suck at passing though. Against the Eagles in the playoffs, I can barely remember Jackson getting into Eagles territory. There should be some level where you can carry your own weight. It doesn't have to be your bread and butter, but you should have other stuff too, such as tendency breakers and so on.

They lost for various reasons. Don't know their gameplan and what they were trying to achieve and what the surrounding variables are or were. I think a 1,000 WR is good, but speaking specifically for our offense, things have gotten adjusted. So going on past production or stats now, in the passing scheme, doesn't really carry over. It's not like stuff is staying exactly the same. So it could work or it may not. I think because our running game is elite, that it will take pressure off the passing game. Plus we have good depth at that position and judging from the stuff installed I would guess a lot of the concepts will be run that we never ran before.
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Old 08-21-2009, 02:07 PM    (permalink
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Don't read too much into who got drafted where. The Giants drafted Mathias Kiwanuka in the first round when they had Strahan, Osi and Tuck a few years ago.
IIRC There was a lot of talk of Strahan calling it quits in the not to distant future during that draft.

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Take into consideration we changed our passing scheme as well since we no longer have Burress and Toomer. Another example is drafting an H back, hybrid TE, in Beckum. It really had nothing to do with confidence, but more to do with changing passing concepts now that we don't have two wrs like Plax and Burress.
I'm confused so you changed your passing scheme because you lost Toomer and Burress. You are confident in those two guys to use this new scheme yet you drafted two WRs anyway? I think I must be reading you wrong. If they were changing it anyway then why not you know change it so that the WRs that you have such confidence in can be more effective in it?
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oh please. as if canadians even know what beer is.
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Old 08-21-2009, 03:15 PM    (permalink
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Not to pile on, but the first part of this is ridiculous homerism. You say that they have "Cotchery and a bunch of unproven guys" when ALL the Giants have is unproven guys. Dustin Keller was as much of a receiving threat last year as Steve Smith was, and the Jets have guys out of the backfield that are serious receiving threats as well.


AND JERICHO COTCHERY BY HIMSELF IS BETTER THAN ANYTHING YOU HAVE, which goes a long way to establishing a competent receiving corps. He may not be Calvin Johnson, but he's capable to taking on some doubles and providing a consistent threat. His best season is almost twice that of your best recievers best season. How can you be so far removed from reality?
since you love going after my posts and then once I clearly prove you wrong you stop, let's give this a whirl.

There is no doubt in my mind I've watched more of Cotchery than you have. He's a nice WR but not a #1. He is about on par with a guy like Hixon or Smith. Oh, and then there's that little fall to guys like Chansi Stuckey, David Clowney, Brad Smith, Wallace Wright, Marcus Henry, Aundrae Allison. So let's go with this, shall we:

Cotchery>Hixon
Smith> Stuckey/Clowney/Brad Smith

the gap of how much Smith is better than those guys more than makes up for the gap of Jericho and Hixon.

And when did we bring TE's and RB's into this? honestly, you're making yourself just seem like a total fool. I didn't make that claim, just correcting a kid who's wrong about the Jets WR corps. This is just hilarious.

Tell me, where's that top Dallas secondary? The one with potential to be the best of the decade?
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Old 08-21-2009, 03:29 PM    (permalink
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the gap of how much Smith is better than those guys more than makes up for the gap of Jericho and Hixon.
Not even close. Smith's a good third-down option, but you're making him out to be some top-notch guy. They're very similar players and Stuckey put up very solid numbers for a guy who was the 5th passing option.
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Old 08-21-2009, 03:33 PM    (permalink
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Not even close. Smith's a good third-down option, but you're making him out to be some top-notch guy. They're very similar players and Stuckey put up very solid numbers for a guy who was the 5th passing option.
no. Cotch lost a big step last year. He was very average. Targeted a lot, but not the WR people make him out to be. Jets fans talk how they should've stayed at 17, drafted Maclin and gave Clemens a shot. Cotch and Hixon aren't too far apart in terms of talent right now. Then there's Smith against guys who caught maybe 20 in their career.

And Stuckey was more of the 3rd option. Brett loved him because his vert is incredible and he bailed him out week one against the phins.

I'm not making Smith out to be a top notch guy but he's a nice #2 option, as is Hixon. And Cotchery. Cotch's experience makes him able to run as a #1 WR, but he's far from something special.
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Old 08-21-2009, 03:50 PM    (permalink
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I have to agree with Scotty on this one. Cotchery is a pretty good wide receiver, but he's not much more than a solid/good number two. He's got nice hands and is a reliable wide receiver but in an ideal situation he kind of reminds me of Steve Smith in some ways.

He's more of an underneath wide receiver who isn't a big deep threat nor is he terrific at getting separation. Granted I'd take Cotchery over Smith now, but I think this year will be interesting in comparing the two as Smith should see more footballs thrown his way as the teams number one/two wide out with the loss of Burress and Toomer.

Like Scotty mentioned Cotchery took a huge step backwards last year which is obvious to most people if you watched him. He was great with Pennington because Chad couldn't really throw it down field but with Favre he showed a significant inability to get down field and get separation.

As for the rest of the Giants vs Jets WR corps its really debatable. Most of them are unproven and haven't been that consistent. I think the Giants probably have more upside just because they have a lot of young talented guys, where as the Jets probably have more reliable and experienced wide receivers.
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Old 08-21-2009, 03:52 PM    (permalink
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Smith is a #3, cut from the same cloth as Jason Avant.
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Old 08-21-2009, 03:53 PM    (permalink
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And Stuckey was more of the 3rd option.
Cotchery, Coles, Keller, Washington and then Stuckey.
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Old 08-21-2009, 03:55 PM    (permalink
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Yes, ideally Steve Smith is a number three wide receiver. He does an excellent job of working out of the slot.

Also, Keller completely disappeared the second half of the season too, for what its worth. Although that may because there were some reports Mangini didn't like Keller much, but who knows.
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Old 08-21-2009, 03:57 PM    (permalink
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Yes, ideally Steve Smith is a number three wide receiver. He does an excellent job of working out of the slot.
I like him a lot, mainly because he reminds me so much of Avant.
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Old 08-21-2009, 04:21 PM    (permalink
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I like him a lot, mainly because he reminds me so much of Avant.
Yeah, he's kind of like Avant, but I'd say Avant is a little faster and Smith is probably a better route runner.
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Old 08-21-2009, 04:22 PM    (permalink
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Yeah, he's kind of like Avant, but I'd say Avant is a little faster and Smith is probably a better route runner.
Really? I'd have it the other way around. Avant's routes are crisp, man.
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Old 08-21-2009, 04:29 PM    (permalink
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since you love going after my posts and then once I clearly prove you wrong you stop, let's give this a whirl.

There is no doubt in my mind I've watched more of Cotchery than you have. He's a nice WR but not a #1. He is about on par with a guy like Hixon or Smith. Oh, and then there's that little fall to guys like Chansi Stuckey, David Clowney, Brad Smith, Wallace Wright, Marcus Henry, Aundrae Allison. So let's go with this, shall we:

Cotchery>Hixon
Smith> Stuckey/Clowney/Brad Smith

the gap of how much Smith is better than those guys more than makes up for the gap of Jericho and Hixon.

And when did we bring TE's and RB's into this? honestly, you're making yourself just seem like a total fool. I didn't make that claim, just correcting a kid who's wrong about the Jets WR corps. This is just hilarious.

Tell me, where's that top Dallas secondary? The one with potential to be the best of the decade?


So....you're method of "proving" me wrong is to say, effectively, "I have seen Cotchery more than you and I he's not as good as you say he is?"

Really, is that your professional opinion, doctor?


Let's do this:


WR name...............Career Highs
Hixon....................57/574/1
Smith...................43/596/2
Cotchery...............82/1130/6


Do the math and Cotchery's best seasons are comparable or better to that of Hixon and Smith combined in both yards and TDs while he's close in receptions. And yet your oh-so-informed assesment is that they are "roughly the same" as players. Get real. Talk about making yourself look like a fool.



As for bringing TEs and RBs into it, my underlying thesis here is that the Giants are in serious danger of having their lack of a passing game hold the entire team hostage this year. They are entering the season with the least amount of proven production of any team in the league, or did you miss the part where I broke that down?


And, just for your own good, you should probably listen to Sniper on this one. Stuckey had the 6th most receptions on the team. The Jets were heavy into modified formations and RB/LB/S mismatches last year, especially in the way they used Leon Washington. They also are fielding a pass catching TE who is basically a WR, who himself--as a raw rookie--was as productive as any player on your team last year.

So, no, the Giants can't sniff the Jets jock on this one. The Giants are fielding a WR corps featuring one guy who is a borderline 2/ideal 3 with potential to become a solid 2, another guy who is a solid 3 and then a bunch of first year players and scrubs. The Jets have a potential elite pass catching TE, a very solid 2 who could be a co-1 in the right situation, an excellent pass catching back, and a guy in Stuckey who looks like a solid 3 (and then a bunch of scrubs).

NYJ's receiving corps is certainly nothing to brag on, but its far and away better than the Giants. What it ultimately comes down to is a vast over-estimation of your teams players at the position. You clearly value both Hixon and Smith far above where they should be value at, considering neither player has caught more than 2 TDs in a a season, nor exceeded 60 rec or 700 yards in a season. And neither one has done anything to suggest that they have star potential down the line, either. Just accept it, the evidence is overwhelming.
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Old 08-21-2009, 04:39 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Sniper View Post
Cotchery, Coles, Keller, Washington and then Stuckey.
eh, Favre looked to Stuckey quite a bit though. Earlier in the year he was a favorite of his. Until fatboy mangini decided to not utilize Stuckey as much in the 2nd half of the year. one of the many reasons for the Jets collapse, but that's a story for another day.
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Old 08-21-2009, 04:40 PM    (permalink
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wow, now we're using career bests! awesome, let's not bring into account age or guys on the decline who had sub-par seasons at best. no, that's fine.

you know guyz, I really think this Giants WR corps is top 10 in the league with the potential to be the best of the decade.
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Old 08-21-2009, 04:41 PM    (permalink
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I have to agree with Scotty on this one. Cotchery is a pretty good wide receiver, but he's not much more than a solid/good number two. He's got nice hands and is a reliable wide receiver but in an ideal situation he kind of reminds me of Steve Smith in some ways.

He's more of an underneath wide receiver who isn't a big deep threat nor is he terrific at getting separation. Granted I'd take Cotchery over Smith now, but I think this year will be interesting in comparing the two as Smith should see more footballs thrown his way as the teams number one/two wide out with the loss of Burress and Toomer.

Like Scotty mentioned Cotchery took a huge step backwards last year which is obvious to most people if you watched him. He was great with Pennington because Chad couldn't really throw it down field but with Favre he showed a significant inability to get down field and get separation.

As for the rest of the Giants vs Jets WR corps its really debatable. Most of them are unproven and haven't been that consistent. I think the Giants probably have more upside just because they have a lot of young talented guys, where as the Jets probably have more reliable and experienced wide receivers.


All I'm hearing here is that the Jets badly misused him, no? I watched plenty of Jets last year and he didn't visibly seem to have lost anything, nor should he have at the tender age of 26. Some players have down years, that's part of the game, but I find it highly doubtful that he would have simply regressed for no appartent reason, as everything I've ever heard about the kid is that he's a hard worker who keeps his nose clean and goes about his business.

Far more likely is that he was simply being misused as a down the field receiver when he thrives more as a run after the catch guy who works the middle of the field.


And there is no way you can possibly say that its a toss up between the two. When I say recieving corps, I'm talking about all pass catchers on the team. Its really not close between these two teams.
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Old 08-21-2009, 04:45 PM    (permalink
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All I'm hearing here is that the Jets badly misused him, no? I watched plenty of Jets last year and he didn't visibly seem to have lost anything, nor should he have at the tender age of 26. Some players have down years, that's part of the game, but I find it highly doubtful that he would have simply regressed for no appartent reason, as everything I've ever heard about the kid is that he's a hard worker who keeps his nose clean and goes about his business.

Far more likely is that he was simply being misused as a down the field receiver when he thrives more as a run after the catch guy who works the middle of the field.


And there is no way you can possibly say that its a toss up between the two. When I say recieving corps, I'm talking about all pass catchers on the team. Its really not close between these two teams.
see, we're going off of what they did recently while you're living on Jericho's career best where he'd sit in curls or break in short out routes and live off Chad's lack of arm strength and love of the underneath game.
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Old 08-21-2009, 04:58 PM    (permalink
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wow, now we're using career bests! awesome, let's not bring into account age or guys on the decline who had sub-par seasons at best. no, that's fine.

you know guyz, I really think this Giants WR corps is top 10 in the league with the potential to be the best of the decade.


As opposed to what?


Scottyboy's Scouting Reports Depot? Probably the biggest self-admitted homer on the board?


You are calling a 27 year old receiver with a proven pedigree as a highly productive player "in decline" after having a bit of a down year that was still 30 or 40% better than the players you are comparing him to. In this down year you mentioned he still had more receiving TDs than your two starting WRs have in their entire careers.


Numbers aren't perfect, but they do help illustrate and prove out the things that we see on the field. I'm saying that Cotchery is a superb #2 who could be a successful co#1 in the right circumstances and that he is an excellent, proven producer of receptions, yards and TDs in the NFL. I'm saying that Smith is a nice slot guy who can work the short and intermediate areas of the fields effectively as long as he is free to do his work and not being focused on by the defense and that Hixon is kind of a bit guy who is best served as a 3rd reciever for stretching the field and threatening defenses, but doesn't have the consistency in his hands, route running, or mental focus to be more than just that.

Interestingly enough, the numbers actually line up with what I'm saying, while they fly in the face of your assertions. Burden of proof is on you to explain, in a compelling manner, why.
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Old 08-21-2009, 05:10 PM    (permalink
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let's get one thing straight: I'm the self admitted biggest Rutgers homer on the board. I've never criticized them (except Mike Teel at times, but that's a whole 'nother story).

I have no problem criticizing the Giants or bringing out our faults. Pierce is a fat, slow, double chinned idiot who's only out there because of his brain.

we're relying on young WR's, most of whom unproven

our OL depth makes me cringe

Our safety depth makes me cringe as well (except CC Brown laying lumber like a lumberjack)

I'm not 100% confident in danny ware, as we all know Jacobs won't play a full season.

I can admit all these things, but I know the difference between the Jets WR's and Giants is not as big as you're making it out to be. And I'm talking full out WR's. No TE's and RB's. Keller is a freak recieving TE and LWash is one of the most dangerous players in the league if utilized properly. But strictly talking the WR position, the Giants and Jets are a toss up.

And yes, Cotch was in decline after last year. He had a pretty bad year, which is decline. I mean, Braylon Edwards was a budding stud until he caught the dropsies from Tim Carter, and now he's in the shitter in the minds of most fans. So he's in the decline. Cotch struggled mightly getting seperation and making plays last year, hence him being on the decline.
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Old 08-21-2009, 05:15 PM    (permalink
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All I'm hearing here is that the Jets badly misused him, no? I watched plenty of Jets last year and he didn't visibly seem to have lost anything, nor should he have at the tender age of 26. Some players have down years, that's part of the game, but I find it highly doubtful that he would have simply regressed for no appartent reason, as everything I've ever heard about the kid is that he's a hard worker who keeps his nose clean and goes about his business.

Far more likely is that he was simply being misused as a down the field receiver when he thrives more as a run after the catch guy who works the middle of the field.


And there is no way you can possibly say that its a toss up between the two. When I say recieving corps, I'm talking about all pass catchers on the team. Its really not close between these two teams.
Not even close? Really? Come on. Now you're just trying to be overly dramatic. Both teams don't really have a great wide receivers across the board.

By the way, nice job using career numbers of a guy who has been a starter for several years (Cotchery) comparing them to Hixon who was a career special teams player until this year, and even then he was behind Smith, Burress and Toomer the first half of the year and to Steve Smith who's been a third option slot receiver his entire career. That seems like a fair and objective way to compare them instead of actually watching them play. But then again I suppose common sense and logic are pretty arbitrary.

Also, nice job misreading my post and ignoring the fact I never said Cotchery regressed from a talent stand point last year. I said he took a step backwards because the offense changed with Favre instead of Pennington which led to him having to run routes which required separation (which is something he doesn't get).

Also, Cotchery is not a 'great' wide receiver. He's good, but certainly not anything close to great. I mean how often do you see people bring up Jericho Cotchery when discussing the ten best wide receivers in the league? Uh, never.

I'd gladly take Cotchery on the Giants but I wouldn't want him as our number one, and I'd want to have a good slot receiver like a Steve Smith to help compliment him as well.
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Old 08-21-2009, 05:40 PM    (permalink
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I can't believe I'm about to do this.

I actually like the Giants receivers. They have a nice collection of players who can do different things.

I REALLY wanted the Eagles to draft Hakeem Nicks in the draft but they drafted Maclin instead. Nicks is a big physical receiver with glue for hands and I really think he will be good.

They have Ramses Barden who is really raw but he has the tools. He should be a great red-zone weapon for the Giants and if reports out of Giants camp are true he could end up being very good.

Steve Smith IMO is a fine #2, he is a steady option with good hands and he runs good routes. So, he isn't explosive but there are plenty of good receivers who aren't explosive like TJ Houshmanzadeh, Hines Ward and Derrick Mason just to name a few. Just because you aren't explosive doesn't mean you can't be good.

Hixon is pretty quick and he has good size. If the Giants gave him a shot at the #1 WR spot I think he could succeed. He did lead the Giants in receiving last year I believe.

Sinorice Moss and Mario Manningham are IMO busts or if they aren't already they will be. However that isn't implying that they can't be good deep threats. Both are fast players who can stretch the field and can be thrown out on the field to complement Nicks, Barden, Smith and Hixon.

Overall I think the receiving core is in many ways similar to what the Eagles had last year when the Eagles set franchise records in scoring, I think that this will be a good receiver by committee type of deal where things are split up and each receiver has a designated role. I actually can't believe that they don't get more hype on this board.
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Old 08-21-2009, 05:50 PM    (permalink
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Well, I'm more interested in finding out why Ward voted for the Cowboys. He's usually trying to tell the Cowboys forum we've got too much optimism. That we need to be more grounded.

I voted for the Giants because everyone should EXPECT them to win. Things might change once the Cowboys start winning though. ;)
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Old 08-22-2009, 10:43 AM    (permalink
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IIRC There was a lot of talk of Strahan calling it quits in the not to distant future during that draft.



I'm confused so you changed your passing scheme because you lost Toomer and Burress. You are confident in those two guys to use this new scheme yet you drafted two WRs anyway? I think I must be reading you wrong. If they were changing it anyway then why not you know change it so that the WRs that you have such confidence in can be more effective in it?
Yeah the passing scheme was tailored towards our X wr, which is Burress, and his skill set. These included routes, depth of routes, and certain passing concepts within the overall passing game. Now when Plax went down, we were running that offense for his skill set but with Hixon. You can't work that way.

So we chose not to re-sign Toomer, because we developed Smith, Manningham, and Plax had his issues. So we drafted two WRs and TE/H-back in Beckum. So we basically adjusted the passing game now to fit our existing wrs, and their skill set, via passing concepts and routes. We didn't,however change, the system 100%, ie WCO, Spread, Air Raid, or Air Croyell.
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Old 08-22-2009, 12:58 PM    (permalink
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Two team race between Eagles and Giants. The division is still very strong, but it may no longer be the best in football as the Skins and Cowboys are not keeping up with Philly and NY. The Giants are deeper than the Eagles but if injuries are not an issue, Philly has the edge. Both could enter January with 12+ wins.
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