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Old 09-06-2009, 12:58 PM    (permalink
Vikes99ej
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Pats still have Jarvis Green and Ty Warren, two very talented 3-4 ends. I wouldn't worry about what the Patriots do.
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Old 09-06-2009, 01:03 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Vikes99ej View Post
Pats still have Jarvis Green and Ty Warren, two very talented 3-4 ends. I wouldn't worry about what the Patriots do.
I thought Jarvis Green was a better fit for a 4-3, doesn't he usually come in for pass rushing situations... I am not 100% sure on this...
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Old 09-06-2009, 01:04 PM    (permalink
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If Mario Henderson plays well at LT, the Raiders O-Line will not actually be that bad... Robert Gallery may be a bust at LT, but he is a very good OG in the NFL, and Samson Satele had a bad year in Miami only because Sparano's offense scheme did not fit him well but with the ZBS that the Raiders run he will play like he did his rookie year.
Satele isn't even starting. Chris Morris is starting for the Raiders at Center.

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C Samson Satele: The trade pickup was the starter until he stunk it up one last time against the Saints. When Miami's Bill Parcells took Jake Grove over Satele, that should've been a clue.
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Old 09-06-2009, 01:04 PM    (permalink
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top ten pick... top five pick... ha.

i love how quickly everyone here forgets recent history. atlanta? arizona? i don't even want to actually have to think about why making full stop predictions about a pick that's TWO YEARS away is stupid. not even stupid, ****ing moronic.
Arizona isn't Oakland, NJ. Honestly at this point how can you get angry at people for assuming Oakland won't be pulling out of their tailspin. You mention recent history, well here it is...

2009: 7th pick, Heyward-Bey
2008: 4th pick, D-Mac
2007: 1st pick, Jamarcus
2006: 7th pick, Huff
2005: 7th pick, traded for Moss.
2004: 2nd pick, Gallery.

As Bubba Sparxx would say, UGLY.
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Old 09-06-2009, 01:10 PM    (permalink
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I thought Jarvis Green was a better fit for a 4-3, doesn't he usually come in for pass rushing situations... I am not 100% sure on this...
I saw somewhere that the Patriots are going to focus more on 4-3 this year, maybe they didn't like Seymour as an interior lineman
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Old 09-06-2009, 01:18 PM    (permalink
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If they go 4-3, they probably plan on going the 2000 Ravens/Recent Jaguars/Vikings route, with 2 big stoute DTs in the middle.

Brace and Wilfork in the middle with Mayo behind them would make it awfully tough for anyone to run the ball.

I still think theyre better in a 3-4 shell though. Im sure we'll see a lot of hybrid looks.

I love Bellichick's schemes <333333.

Jarvis Green is a great 3-4 DE in his own right as well. I can see Brace being subbed in at DE when they wanna go run heavy on D.
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Old 09-06-2009, 01:22 PM    (permalink
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I don't really like the fit of Adalius Thomas in a 4-3. Obviously a natural fit in a 3-4. Pats are gearing up for the transition but i don't think it will be quick. Just another chance for BB to throw additional looks at offenses.
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Old 09-06-2009, 01:25 PM    (permalink
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I don't really like the fit of Adalius Thomas in a 4-3. Obviously a natural fit in a 3-4. Pats are gearing up for the transition but i don't think it will be quick. Just another chance for BB to throw additional looks at offenses.
I think Thomas can work as a DE in a 4-3. He's awfully versatile.

Bellichick is a 3-4 guy at heart. I see the 4-3 hybrid looks as strictly a situational front he'll use to maximize the productivity of his current personnel while he overhauls his defense with youth.
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Old 09-06-2009, 01:27 PM    (permalink
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and the three years before that they were a playoff team.

how about arizona? they hadn't had a winning record since 1998 (their ONLY winning season since 1984), then suddenly they were in the nfc championship.

it's just typical swdc silliness. what happened last year is what's always going to happen until it doesn't, then THAT's what's always going to happen until it doesn't. it's borderline braindead to project a pick two years out.
I would agree with you in most cases but I think Oakland could be the exception to the rule here. Where is this franchise if Jamarcus never steps up to the plate? Even deeper down the rabbit hole.
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Old 09-06-2009, 01:30 PM    (permalink
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I agree with CCSD. If it was any other organization, Id agree with NJX. But this is the Raiders.

Nothing they have done in the past 3 years leads me to believe theyre about to turn the corner. Theyve made bad decision after bad decision. Even bad teams who turn it around, you can sort of anticipate it by seeing progression in games, and with the draft.

But the Raiders are as stagnant as they come. Nothing has changed, they continue to make terrible decisions with their organization.
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Old 09-06-2009, 01:30 PM    (permalink
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I think Thomas can work as a DE in a 4-3. He's awfully versatile.

Bellichick is a 3-4 guy at heart. I see the 4-3 hybrid looks as strictly a situational front he'll use to maximize the productivity of his current personnel while he overhauls his defense with youth.
Haha, I'm definitely sold on Thomas' versatility by this point. As far as efficiency though, you have to believe they'd want to keep him in space and find the mismatches. Even though I'm not a huge fan of the Pats, it is extremely impressive to see them make the kind of moves that will be responsible for rejuvenating their D for years to come. Bellichick is the master.
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Old 09-06-2009, 01:40 PM    (permalink
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If I was Seymour, I would be pissed.

Good pickup by the Raiders and I really don't think it's that big of a deal for the Patriots. They got a 1st round pick out of him (something which I don't think they would have gotten next year) and the Raiders are bound to suck by 2011, right?
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Old 09-06-2009, 01:41 PM    (permalink
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trading a first round building block pick for a guy headed towards the downside of his career (who has battled injuries too much btw). raiders are such a well run team.
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Old 09-06-2009, 01:43 PM    (permalink
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If I was Seymour, I would be pissed.
I wouldn't be surprised if he completely sleepwalks his time through Oakland.
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Old 09-06-2009, 01:50 PM    (permalink
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Seymour wasn't having any problems in New England or with team management was he?
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Old 09-06-2009, 01:52 PM    (permalink
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I think Thomas can work as a DE in a 4-3. He's awfully versatile.

Bellichick is a 3-4 guy at heart. I see the 4-3 hybrid looks as strictly a situational front he'll use to maximize the productivity of his current personnel while he overhauls his defense with youth.
I think you're right, the 3-4 is more or less the base defense still. The 4-3 (and other 4 man front looks) are situational, and a way to transition some of the younger players in (Brace, Crable, Guyton, etc.). When they drafted Brace, they said that he would see time at 3-4 DE, not just at the nose.

Also, Green was the starter when Seymour was out with any of his injuries. Still a drop off in talent/production, but it's not like a scrub is taking his place.
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Old 09-06-2009, 02:00 PM    (permalink
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Steal by the Patriots. Seymour isn't the same player he used to be, and the Patriots have depth at DE.

Now they get rid of him for what will probably be a top 10 pick. He has 2 years left max of productive football. This was another Bellichick swindle.

Plus they have Ron Brace who they can sub in at DE. If ppl haven't noticed, Ty Warren has been their best DE for quite some time now.

Good move by the Pats, desperate move by the Raiders.
Seymour was actually better than Warren last year - he was our main source of a pass rush, which is sad because he's a 5-technique 3-4 end on the Patriots. And look at guys like Aaron Smith who still bookend lines into their mid-30s. Ron Brace is a 340 pound nose tackle who just ran a 5.4 and didn't show any semblance of pass rushing ability at Boston College last year. He's not going to replace Seymour for 8.5 sacks.

That said, I am happy about getting a first-round pick and I think New England can use it to get a nice defender. I like this move if the team goes to a 4-3 defense, because I think they could have a nice line (from left to right, Green, Warren, Wilfork, Burgess) and because of the value. However, it doesn't make sense to take one of the team's top defenders and trade him away when this is a pretty old team that's made to win now, not three years from now. The Patriots defense has failed them in recent years and without Seymour it's hard to get behind this team as a champion (in my opinion.) Granted, they're still one of the 2-3 best teams in the league, I'm just not sure I'd put them at #1.
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Old 09-06-2009, 02:14 PM    (permalink
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Seymour was actually better than Warren last year - he was our main source of a pass rush, which is sad because he's a 5-technique 3-4 end on the Patriots. And look at guys like Aaron Smith who still bookend lines into their mid-30s. Ron Brace is a 340 pound nose tackle who just ran a 5.4 and didn't show any semblance of pass rushing ability at Boston College last year. He's not going to replace Seymour for 8.5 sacks.

That said, I am happy about getting a first-round pick and I think New England can use it to get a nice defender. I like this move if the team goes to a 4-3 defense, because I think they could have a nice line (from left to right, Green, Warren, Wilfork, Burgess) and because of the value. However, it doesn't make sense to take one of the team's top defenders and trade him away when this is a pretty old team that's made to win now, not three years from now. The Patriots defense has failed them in recent years and without Seymour it's hard to get behind this team as a champion (in my opinion.) Granted, they're still one of the 2-3 best teams in the league, I'm just not sure I'd put them at #1.
Brace would be used in big packages, to add more muscle against the run.

And while he wouldn't add the same pass rush, don't underestimate his potential as a space filler so those LBs can get in that backfield. Bill's 3-4 is much more of a 2 gap scheme than some of the 3-4 looks we see with other teams.

I actually like Jarvis Green a lot. I think he is underrated as a 3-4 End.

I don't see Seymour getting another 8.5 sacks. He did it on a team with a putrid pass rush. Somebody had to get sacks. Its like a stat compiler in basketball on a bad team. Somebody has to put up 20 a game.
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Old 09-06-2009, 02:22 PM    (permalink
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I understand the move. He had one year left on his deal and he would demanding a big contract next year. The Patriots do a very good job and getting rid of guys just at the right time. They stilll have Warren and Green and they've been playing Ron Brace at some 5-tech during camp.

For the Raiders, I also like the move. Although Seymour is a prototype 3-4 DE, he can still be a very effective 4-3 DT. He's strong, he can take on double teams and he can rush the passer. He is still one of the premier defensive lineman in the game and the Raiders D-Line definitely needed a boost. Seymour also bring the right attitude from a winning culture in New England to a team that really needs it. I still say that I think Oakland will be a 7-9/8-8 team this year and with all their young talent I think they may be even better next year.
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Old 09-06-2009, 02:22 PM    (permalink
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You dont trade a Richard Seymour for a draft pick two years down the road and make yourself a better team. The defense hasnt been championship caliber for over a year now and it just got worse.
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Old 09-06-2009, 02:23 PM    (permalink
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Just reading through a lot of comments, especially by Patriots fans. Personally, I'm disappointed Seymour's gone but this was a fantastic move. First of all he wasn't going to be resigned. Secondly, recently he has been injury prone. Thirdly, they got a first round pick for soon to be 30 DE/DT for a 2011 first round pick.

Now obviously it is extremely difficult to predict much especially two years down the line so if you average it out and say it is the 16th pick that is still awesome value. Not to mention the Patriots have 3 second round picks next year. For a team that people were criticising by saying they were getting old, having 11 1st or 2nd round picks in three years can chanmge that.

As for this year, I think there will be a lot more 4 man fronts with AD playing as a SAM backer. The other thing that has to be mentioned is, asuming of course that Brady's play is an upgrade this year over Cassell, then the Pats will be able to win most games with offense. Now obviously this will not always be the case but the defense should still be better with the uogrades this offseason than last year.
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Old 09-06-2009, 02:30 PM    (permalink
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The Pats defense is better this year period. They are still dominant up front, Warren, Wilfork, Brace, Green, and a mixture of different rushbacker/ends they can throw at you makes their front versatile and stoute.

They got younger in the LB core, they got some young bodies in the secondary. They're more athletic now than they were 2 years ago.

Let's face it, most of their defense the past 2 years were name recognition. But they weren't good players anymore. Only the dline was stoute the past 2 years.

Now in one offseason, they lose Harrison, Bruschi, Vrabel and Seymour. They replace them with younger faster guys.

I think NE's defense is better this year than the past 2 years. Its just hard for fans like us to cope with the loss of a big name, but just bc you lose name guys doesn't mean you get worse.
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Old 09-06-2009, 02:34 PM    (permalink
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Al Davis should be stopped from making any trades. This is out of hand.
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Old 09-06-2009, 02:45 PM    (permalink
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Geo View Post
I wouldn't be surprised if he completely sleepwalks his time through Oakland.
It's a contract year, though. He'll play well if he wants someone else besides Oakland to go after him in FA. This could backfire huge on the Raiders if they don't re-sign him.

I'd doubt this move if the Pats didn't have Jarvis Green backing them up. He could start for other 3-4 teams, but has been stuck behind Seymour and Warren his whole career.
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Old 09-06-2009, 02:48 PM    (permalink
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If it were the MLB, I'd say worth taking a shot for the Raiders. But a top 10 draft pick for a pro bowler who *will not* resign with the fuggly Raiders was all around stupid..

He gives them maybe 0.5 more wins this year?
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