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Old 09-29-2009, 08:56 AM    (permalink
RAVENS/WIZARDS/ORIOLES
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Originally Posted by Smooth Criminal View Post
I just loved hearing announcers claim Ray Lewis as "the best defender ever." Thats the biggest load of **** I've ever heard.
Why? Do you truly believe that someone couldn't make a valid argument for that? I understand completely why you think he isn't the best but don't act like he doesn't deserve a mention. Ray Lewis>you
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Originally Posted by Metsox
mo drew gets about 16 touches a game on offense (on a good day), and will run circles around ray rice. rice has no speed, 2nd burst or agility. he's a strong midget. How can anyone be excited about that.
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Old 09-29-2009, 09:07 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by njx9 View Post
you know, way back in the 1950s, a few dudes invented this magical device called a "video recorder" that allows one to "tape" events and then "replay" them. one can even show these "replays" to people who weren't there originally.

but i'll assume that you knew all of that and just didn't want to put any actual thought into your post.
And its any different today?

I mean, people watched football in the exact same way now as they did 30 years ago. On the TV. With Beer.
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Old 09-29-2009, 09:28 AM    (permalink
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I sort of understand what he was saying...it's hard to get the full picture with just stats and highlight reels. When you watch a game live you get the subtleties of the player, his motor from play to play, how he does the little things. Also you get how he compares with all the other players from the era. We can only guess how Dick Butkus or Joe Greene would stack up against O-lineman from today. Even though it's the same game, it's hard to compare players from era to era.
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Old 09-29-2009, 09:32 AM    (permalink
RAVENS/WIZARDS/ORIOLES
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I believe that players of old could not handle hits from these guys today. I know I am going to get **** for this but humans period are more evolved and athletes today are ridiculously strong. I am not saying players now could play back then I am just saying they are healthier and better trained.
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Originally Posted by Metsox
mo drew gets about 16 touches a game on offense (on a good day), and will run circles around ray rice. rice has no speed, 2nd burst or agility. he's a strong midget. How can anyone be excited about that.
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Old 09-29-2009, 09:47 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by njx9 View Post
right, but i'm not sure what that has to do with anything. i responded to a guy who said "no one in their teens or twenties has ever seen any of these guys play", which is patently untrue (hell, dick butkus has a highlight reel on youtube).
we watch the people the exact same way. and if you pay attention, have been watching the same people in highlight reels for the past 30 years.

Most people haven't watched most downs of half the people they praise, just highlight reels. And we have fantastic highlight reels everyone worthwhile from the glorious NFL Films archives, which they so graciously put on tv during the offseason.

BUT.

The difference is, you have 100 people on NFL who can't be wrong, telling you who the best player is, and then there's congruency, and no questioning who's the greatest, even though, there should ALWAYS be question.

That said. Dick Butkus was/is a scary ************.
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Old 09-29-2009, 09:50 AM    (permalink
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I believe that players of old could not handle hits from these guys today. I know I am going to get **** for this but humans period are more evolved and athletes today are ridiculously strong. I am not saying players now could play back then I am just saying they are healthier and better trained.
LOL, yea, the harsh environment over the last 50 years has made our society about survival of the fittest, and we were needed to spawn super athletes.
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fwiw, i amz deunks ofs myt ass. ilo vez drinmoinz befotre i post. wha t a hreat ideas.z.
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Old 09-29-2009, 09:55 AM    (permalink
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I think evolved is the wrong word, refined is a better word i think. The workout techniques and science behind self improvement today is vastly superior to what it was 40-50 years ago...even 20 years ago. I would bet there were NFL players in the 50's and 60's that never touched a weight in their lives.
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Old 09-29-2009, 10:35 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by njx9 View Post
none of this has anything to do with why i object to his statement. i wouldn't disagree that some people are spoonfed their opinions by whichever moron ESPN/NFLN currently has talking on screen (i mean, if jaws says Player X was the best ever, well, he must be right... right?). but it's utterly asinine to suggest that no one has ever seen players from the 70's and 80's play. in fact, it borders on the most ridiculously illogical, stupid thing i've ever heard on this board. it's a demonstrable untruth.

sure, and i'll usually pick some random player just to start that argument. unfortunately, something else annoyed me first.
It's a concurrent opinion.

And yes, it is completely asinine to think that no one has ever seen players from the 80's and 70's.
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Old 09-29-2009, 10:43 AM    (permalink
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I can only speak for myself, but I have VHS tapes of old games from the 60s, 70s, and 80s. Granted, I haven't watched every game obviously, but I have a decent amount of tape on these guys.

Everyone wants to point out how much the game has changed, I like to point out how much of the game has stayed the same. A lot of fans these days don't understand that. The game isn't nearly as different as they think, and the complexity isn't that much different either.

In fact, you can make an argument that it was more complex then. Especially when linemen were allowed to move around and shift. Formations on offense would get tricky.

Plus factor in the fact that there was no audio equipment back then, and it makes you appreciate what these guys did even more. We credit Peyton for running the no huddle.

Well, Johnny U called the plays his entire career, so whats the difference?

Landry's motion offense was just as complicated as today's offenses. The wildcat has been around since damn near the 40s.

Bellichick's "schemes" have been used since the 80s Giants. His schemes haven't changed that much at all.

I think the main difference between yesteryear and today's game is

1. Run and pass formations have changed a little bit
2. The NFL is going away from complete players and is steering towards situational players.

Its become more of a matchup league. And because of that, I don't think today's players, or future players will ever receive as much credit as the complete players of back then. We're gearing more and more towards mixing and matching parts instead of having the same 11 play every snap. That takes away from the current players.

Another thing to mention:

People want to say blocking schemes have gotten more complex. This is true. However, it was arguably harder to rush the passer then than it is now. Because back then, it was a boxing match on grass. You could hold, trip, grap, slap, anything.

So while you saw a 1 on 1 matchup compared to a double, chip etc, you were basically held on every play and sometimes cheapshotted. Id say that it was actually harder rushing the passer than then it is now.

So I know a lot of you want to take credit away from the guys from yesteryear, but I personally think their brand of football was much tougher than today's game. Especially those 2 way players. Those guys were the toughest SOBs to ever play this game.
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Old 09-29-2009, 10:49 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by gsorace View Post
Lawrence Taylor changed the way the game was played forever.
You mean QB assassination? that' what the Buddy Ryan schemes were all about.

Willie Lanier & Ray Nitschke also the most feared lights-out MLBs back in the day. And Bob Lilly on the d-line, 1st draft pick of the Cowboys franchise, he defined a whole new technique.

What do you mean, the hits today are worse? The old League was far more injurious... the injury rate in the NFL in the late 60s - 70s was 100% by the end of December, not a question of if you'd be injured but when & how badly.

And they allowed the head slap back then. Deacon Jones was a master at it. He said it was the best way to dominate an OT who was bigger & quicker than you -- he talked about smacking the OT as hard you could in the 1st defensive series b/c his ears rang all game long, forget about hearing the snap count.
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Old 09-29-2009, 10:51 AM    (permalink
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You mean QB assassination? that' what the Buddy Ryan schemes were all about.

Willie Lanier & Ray Nitschke also the most feared lights-out MLBs back in the day. And Bob Lilly on the d-line, 1st draft pick of the Cowboys franchise, he defined a whole new technique.

What do you mean, the hits today are worse? The old League was far more injurious... the injury rate in the NFL in the late 60s - 70s was 100% by the end of December, not a question of if you'd be injured but when & how badly.

And they allowed the head slap back then. Deacon Jones was a master at it. He said it was the best way to dominate an OT who was bigger & quicker than you -- he talked about smacking the OT as hard you could in the 1st defensive series b/c his ears rang all game long, forget about hearing the snap count.
Actually, Buddy gets too much credit for his scheme.

His scheme was a variation of the Gritz Blitz of the 70s Falcons. The true innovator there was Jerry Glanville, not Buddy Ryan.

Buddy gets the attention bc he won a SB.
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Old 09-29-2009, 11:22 AM    (permalink
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I believe that players of old could not handle hits from these guys today. I know I am going to get **** for this but humans period are more evolved and athletes today are ridiculously strong. I am not saying players now could play back then I am just saying they are healthier and better trained.
Wouldnt you for the sake of comparison give those same athletes the benefit of better weight training, technique, diet etc. From a talent standpoint you arent going to match the 70s Steelers, 80s Bears and not even sure anyone would beat the 60s Packers either. I think there are probably more good players today just from the standpoint the population and the sport has expanded so much but the top level of players to me doesnt seem any better.
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Old 09-30-2009, 11:09 AM    (permalink
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the way i see it is that the average player is getting better and better whilst the superstars are and always will transcend generations.

lilly or butkus playing whilst doing weight training year round from their junior year of highschool thruout their career is just plain scary....i'm not sure if butkus has the speed or fluidity to play the 4-3 mike role in the modern era but there is no doubt in mind that a 26 year old, gym room rat dick butkus would be the best 3-4 "ted" linebacker in the league right now....and if lilly isnt quite big enough to play d.t. he would be a fierce and annual pro bowl 3-4 d.e......the greats simply transcend.

with that said anybody that thinks ray lewis isnt one of the most dominate defensive players ever are plain ******** for lack of a better word....ray is the complete package and easily the most dominate defensive player of the modern era, he like butkus transcends generations and would be completely dominate 50 years ago or 50 years from now.....you think a ripped and ultra conditioned butkus is scary?...how bout if ray ray could use the clothesline, helemet to helmet and other things the old guys got away with...ray is a throwback fellas....a throwback with a nasty attitude that also has the speed and agility to be great in coverage even in this modern era of 4 w.r. sets.

ray is the best mlb to ever play the game and arguably the most dominate defensive player ever...the total package.

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Old 09-30-2009, 11:40 AM    (permalink
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I believe that players of old could not handle hits from these guys today. I know I am going to get **** for this but humans period are more evolved and athletes today are ridiculously strong. I am not saying players now could play back then I am just saying they are healthier and better trained.
While I agree that the athletes of today are superior athletes those old cats could absolutely handle the hits. Those guys were tough SOBs.

You think this guy couldn't take a hit?

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Old 09-30-2009, 11:46 AM    (permalink
RAVENS/WIZARDS/ORIOLES
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While I agree that the athletes of today are superior athletes those old cats could absolutely handle the hits. Those guys were tough SOBs.

You think this guy couldn't take a hit?

I am not saying they can't take hits but I don't think they could take hit after hit after hit from some of these big guys these days. I mean there are safties our there that hit harder than LB's(Sean Taylor just to mention one that hit really hard). I just think people are so strong and athletic now days that people back then would be injured fast.
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mo drew gets about 16 touches a game on offense (on a good day), and will run circles around ray rice. rice has no speed, 2nd burst or agility. he's a strong midget. How can anyone be excited about that.
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Old 09-30-2009, 02:31 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Shiver View Post
Touche..

Honestly you cannot compare players now to the dominant players of past decades. The game was different, and our perspectives are skewed to the great players back then. We all know that Champ Bailey wasn't really a "shutdown" corner, although he was very good. Yet in ten to twenty years his performance will be exaggerated: "teams never even through to his side!"
Actually there was a point in time when he was a shut down corner and teams never even threw to his side.
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Old 09-30-2009, 02:39 PM    (permalink
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Curious what everybodies definition of old time football would be. For me personally i dont think 50s or early 60s pre African American football would compete, no. If you're talking mid 60s, Packers with HOF corners like Adderly and Wood, Dallas Cowboys with several HOF players yes i think they would be great.
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Old 10-02-2009, 11:03 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by 21ST View Post
Actually there was a point in time when he was a shut down corner and teams never even threw to his side.
When was that? He surely was respected when he played for Washington, but I wouldn't say the dude was feared. And there was never a time in Washington where NFC EAst teams didn't throw to his side of the field.

Teams could still complete passes in front of him, and I remember more than a few times seeing Champ get beat over the top. A better description for Champ would be a lockdown corner, a guy capable of taking his WR out of the game, but who still on occasion gives up plays downfield. Champ is a more complete corner because of his elite ability to tackle in run support.

IMO, Deion is the closest thing to a true 'shutdown' corner I've ever seen in the NFL; a guy who could punish you with a pick 6 for even attempting to throw to a WR he was covering.
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Old 10-02-2009, 11:05 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by FUNBUNCHER View Post
When was that? He surely was respected when he played for Washington, but I wouldn't say the dude was feared. And there was never a time in Washington where NFC EAst teams didn't throw to his side of the field.

Teams could still complete passes in front of him, and I remember more than a few times seeing Champ get beat over the top. A better description for Champ would be a lockdown corner, a guy capable of taking his WR out of the game, but who still on occasion gives up plays downfield. Champ is a more complete corner because of his elite ability to tackle in run support.

IMO, Deion is the closest thing to a true 'shutdown' corner I've ever seen in the NFL; a guy who could punish you with a pick 6 for even attempting to throw to a WR he was covering.
Charles Woodson!!! He's going to have 25 picks this year :D (caution...homer )
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Old 10-02-2009, 11:12 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by YAYareaRB View Post
Lawrence Taylor was just dominant. I think he's the reason for the short intermediate passing game.
THE reason? No. He's certainly a reason.

The beginnings of the West Coast Offense were before his time, when Bill Walsh was in Cincinnati.
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Old 10-02-2009, 11:14 AM    (permalink
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Actually, Buddy gets too much credit for his scheme.

His scheme was a variation of the Gritz Blitz of the 70s Falcons. The true innovator there was Jerry Glanville, not Buddy Ryan.

Buddy gets the attention bc he won a SB.
Jerry Glanville was awesome. The Gritz Blitz was basically adapted from a High School Defense, but for a team that did not have an overwhelming amount of talent, they shut people down.

Too bad their offense was so horrible they still couldn't do anything
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Old 10-02-2009, 11:16 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by RAVENS/WIZARDS/ORIOLES View Post
I believe that players of old could not handle hits from these guys today. I know I am going to get **** for this but humans period are more evolved and athletes today are ridiculously strong. I am not saying players now could play back then I am just saying they are healthier and better trained.
Jim Brown would be a dominating force in today's NFL even if he didn't take advantage of all of the training players have access to today, but imagine if he did.

The guy looked like he could take a couple carries in his 60s for God's sake.

Only now in his 70s does he finally look mortal
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Old 10-02-2009, 11:21 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by wonderbredd24 View Post
Jim Brown would be a dominating force in today's NFL even if he didn't take advantage of all of the training players have access to today, but imagine if he did.

The guy looked like he could take a couple carries in his 60s for God's sake.

Only now in his 70s does he finally look mortal
I don't think that a guy who trained the way they did in the 50's and 60's could play with the players of today because of the training that players go through today. I just don't believe they would last. I mean sure they could makes some plays but they would get injured quick.
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Old 10-02-2009, 11:27 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by RAVENS/WIZARDS/ORIOLES View Post
I don't think that a guy who trained the way they did in the 50's and 60's could play with the players of today because of the training that players go through today. I just don't believe they would last. I mean sure they could makes some plays but they would get injured quick.
In the days of hatchet men and other unspeakable things done to African American athletes on the field of play, Jim Brown never missed a game.

People forget just how brutal the game was at that time. The average player was not as big as or as strong as players today, but there were players on the team specifically out there to hurt the other team.

That was until the career ending injury to Gale Sayers, which forced the league to institute dramatically tougher rules.
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Old 10-02-2009, 01:54 PM    (permalink
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There is a reason you can't head tackle any more, this guy:

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