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Old 10-02-2009, 10:29 AM    (permalink
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Rice was more productive because he never played on a **** team, but Randy Moss is better. It's hard for people to swallow. Moss is the best ever.
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Old 10-02-2009, 10:36 AM    (permalink
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Rice was more productive because he never played on a **** team, but Randy Moss is better. It's hard for people to swallow. Moss is the best ever.
wow. no one prolly will ever get close to Rice. Rice made teams better. Moss on the other hand was great on good teams and trailed on ****** teams. Even though Moss is extremely talented and for me #3 WR of all time, he isnt even close to Rice


pls, just look at the records.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of..._by_Jerry_Rice
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Old 10-02-2009, 10:42 AM    (permalink
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Moss is a physical freak. His potential as a WR probably is more than any WR that played the game.. Elite speed, good hands, very good measurables. Where it hurt him was his off the field stuff, and perhaps attitude.

Rice produced at a HOF level, due to great attitude and work ethic. Great coaching point for kids to follow. You don't have to be the tallest, or fastest, just work hard and have a good attitude when it comes to what you do, and results can come. Same thing can be learned from Moss. Just because you have all that potential and talent, doesn't mean you don't work hard, or have an attitude about it. If you combined the work ethic of Rice and put it in Moss. Now that would probably be a deadly combo.

But as for Moss, he will be the best WR to play the game, but his production may never match his potential for a lot of reasons. But Moss is a freak of nature and fun to watch throughout his career.
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Old 10-02-2009, 12:00 PM    (permalink
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Moss will never touch Rice. I don't care how much of a freak he is. He only ran 1 route his entire career. Rice was the best run-after-catch WR ever. Not to mention he (Moss) took a season worth of plays off. You can never be considered the best ever if you have to qualify it. So saying when motivated or when he tried he was best ever goes out the window.
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Old 10-02-2009, 12:44 PM    (permalink
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well that was an utterly convincing argument.

can we be honest here, why do people bother posting garbage like this? in a thread full of people making actual arguments, to come in and think that "X is better" is a worthwhile addition is borderline insulting.
Because it's ******* subjective anyway you look at it. Moss was clearly more talented and was/is more dominating than Rice ever was. And even going by productivity, if Moss plays 20 years like Rice did, he'd crush all his records (and still might with far less than 20 years).
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Old 10-02-2009, 12:58 PM    (permalink
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When people say Randy has only had Tom brady and Tom Brady's most productive year of his career was when Moss was on the team, I find it odd. Randy may never have had a hall of fame QB' before 2007 so that may have prevented him from further success, right? Well you can then take that argument, spin it for Rice and say that Montana and Young were Hall of Famers because of Rice, right?
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Old 10-02-2009, 02:53 PM    (permalink
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When people say Randy has only had Tom brady and Tom Brady's most productive year of his career was when Moss was on the team, I find it odd. Randy may never have had a hall of fame QB' before 2007 so that may have prevented him from further success, right? Well you can then take that argument, spin it for Rice and say that Montana and Young were Hall of Famers because of Rice, right?
Foo you forgetting Rich Gannon
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Old 10-02-2009, 03:13 PM    (permalink
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When people say Randy has only had Tom brady and Tom Brady's most productive year of his career was when Moss was on the team, I find it odd. Randy may never have had a hall of fame QB' before 2007 so that may have prevented him from further success, right? Well you can then take that argument, spin it for Rice and say that Montana and Young were Hall of Famers because of Rice, right?
Which is why we should leave this out of it all together. People are really underselling Culpepper and Cunningham at this point anyway. Culpepper had his best season in a year where Randy was hurt in like game 6 or 7 I believe.

I don't hold the Oakland thing against him very much, considering they might have had the worst blocking I've ever seen, so the QB wasn't even capable of getting the ball down field.
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Old 10-02-2009, 03:16 PM    (permalink
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When people say Randy has only had Tom brady and Tom Brady's most productive year of his career was when Moss was on the team, I find it odd. Randy may never have had a hall of fame QB' before 2007 so that may have prevented him from further success, right? Well you can then take that argument, spin it for Rice and say that Montana and Young were Hall of Famers because of Rice, right?
Actually, Montana won 2 SBs before Jerry Rice ever set foot in the NFL.

Joe was big pimpin without him.
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Old 10-02-2009, 03:32 PM    (permalink
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Which is why we should leave this out of it all together. People are really underselling Culpepper and Cunningham at this point anyway. Culpepper had his best season in a year where Randy was hurt in like game 6 or 7 I believe.

I don't hold the Oakland thing against him very much, considering they might have had the worst blocking I've ever seen, so the QB wasn't even capable of getting the ball down field.
I completely agree....Cunningham was a good QB. He was more of a QB and less of an athlete when he got to the Vikings....before that he was Michael Vick
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Old 10-02-2009, 03:38 PM    (permalink
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Because it's ******* subjective anyway you look at it. Moss was clearly more talented and was/is more dominating than Rice ever was. And even going by productivity, if Moss plays 20 years like Rice did, he'd crush all his records (and still might with far less than 20 years).
no moss wouldnt. cause Moss most certainly wont play 20 years. He will lose his speed which is one of his most important assets if not the most important one. Jerry Rice on the other hand was more of a route runner and YAC guy.
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Old 10-03-2009, 08:21 AM    (permalink
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ah. it's "subjective" so all you have to offer is what amounts to "he sucks". brilliant. at least you quantify "more dominating". er... wait.
It's subjective because while Rice has numbers, Moss is clearly more talented and physically gifted. It's subjective because they're different types of receivers. It's subjective because Rice never played with a **** team or a **** QB. Moss experienced 6 years of bad to below average teams around him. Rice played for 3 bad teams, but those were the only teams he played with that were sub-10 win teams. Rice never had a **** QB. And for those who argue that those teams were good because of Rice, in 1997 the 49ers won 13 games and did so with Rice going out in week 2.
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Old 10-03-2009, 09:14 AM    (permalink
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I don't want to get into the Moss / Rice debate right now because I don't have a whole lot of time to put my thoughts into text at the moment. However, I did want to stop in say that every great team Rice has played for was great without him. He simply made them greater.
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Old 10-03-2009, 09:32 AM    (permalink
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Moss' legacy will be as a guy who made big plays and strecthed the field. However, he has become a more complete player since joining the Patriots.
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Old 10-03-2009, 10:54 AM    (permalink
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Rice and him are 1a and 1b in my mind.
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Old 10-03-2009, 11:46 AM    (permalink
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Because it's ******* subjective anyway you look at it. Moss was clearly more talented and was/is more dominating than Rice ever was. And even going by productivity, if Moss plays 20 years like Rice did, he'd crush all his records (and still might with far less than 20 years).
Good luck with you and that army of One.

No current or retired NFL player or coach would ever agree with you, but to each his won.

Someone else who never saw Rice play in his prime on Sundays and in the playoffs/SBs, but feels qualified to judge him based on ...nothing.

For future reference, go check out Rice's MVP game against CInncinati in SB 23.

The biggest difference between Rice and Moss is from the neck up, always will be, and why if I had to choose, I'd always want Rice over Moss on my team. Jerry Rice makes your entire WR corps and offense better, because of the leadership he brings in the lockerroom and on the field.
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Old 10-03-2009, 12:38 PM    (permalink
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Good luck with you and that army of One.

No current or retired NFL player or coach would ever agree with you, but to each his won.

Someone else who never saw Rice play in his prime on Sundays and in the playoffs/SBs, but feels qualified to judge him based on ...nothing.

For future reference, go check out Rice's MVP game against CInncinati in SB 23.

The biggest difference between Rice and Moss is from the neck up, always will be, and why if I had to choose, I'd always want Rice over Moss on my team. Jerry Rice makes your entire WR corps and offense better, because of the leadership he brings in the lockerroom and on the field.
Moss has always made the WR corp, and entire offense in general significantly better around him. In fact, you can make a strong argument that Moss is in fact better at making players around him better than Rice ever was.

Moss is also a clutch player. In the SB against the Giants, the touchdown drive that should have sealed the game, the Pats rode in key moments during their drive, and he scored the touchdown.

Last year, he made a sick TD catch against I believe the Jets that was incredible.

Im not saying Moss is better than Rice, but I think you're shortchanging him on some "intangibles" for a lack of a better term.
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Old 10-03-2009, 01:39 PM    (permalink
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I can't remember ever hearing Moss described as a 'leader' on any team he's played on, bigbluedefense. He's a respected vet because of his talent, but leadership skills have always been low on Moss' list of attributes.

There's a laundry list of NFL players who give Jerry Rice credit for teaching them how to train and workout like pros in the offseason, to improve on their games and how to always seek an edge through superb conditioning and route running technique.

Randy Moss is without question the greatest physical specimen, outside of Calvin Johnson, to ever play the WR position, but I don't think he'll ever be considered the greatest WR to play the game.
He's had too many seasons where the only impact he had on his team were stats, but was unable to elevate the overall performance of his team, especially his last years in Minnesota.

And his time in Oakland where he basically flipped a middle finger to the Raiders franchise will not be soon be forgotten.

To illustrate why Moss will fall far short in almost any comparison to Rice, let's compare their careers in Oakland.
Moss played for the Raiders still well in his prime, (28 and 29 yrsold), and had seasons of 60/1005/8 TDs and 42/553/3 TDs.

Rice played for Oakland well PAST his prime, ( 39, 40, and 41 yrsold), and had seasons of 83/1139/9 TDs, 92/1211/7 TDs, and 63/869/2 TDs.

Randy Moss is a nice player, a great player to be sure and future HOFer, but he's no Jerry Rice.
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Old 10-03-2009, 01:59 PM    (permalink
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Well, when Rice played on the Raiders they had one of the best offenses in the NFL and when Moss played for the Raiders they weren't even close to that. So that's a pretty shaky comparison.
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Old 10-03-2009, 02:07 PM    (permalink
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What BBD was talking about isn't leadership, but how having Randy Moss on the field forces a defense to adjust and overload on stopping the deep ball opening up the field for both the running game and underneath routes while serving to slow a team's blitzing.
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Is Shaun Hill a top 10 QB? Definitely not. Is he a top 20 one? Almost certainly.
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Most misleading 10+ sack season EVER.

Last edited by Rosebud : 10-03-2009 at 02:25 PM.
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Old 10-03-2009, 02:18 PM    (permalink
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Well, when Rice played on the Raiders they had one of the best offenses in the NFL and when Moss played for the Raiders they weren't even close to that. So that's a pretty shaky comparison.
Shouldn't matter since the Moss supporters are basing their argument strictly on stats anyway. Plenty of talented WRs have put up monster numbers on bad offensive teams.
Last year on an 0-16 team, Calvin Johnson had 78/1331/12 TDs.

Granted, those Raiders teams weren't much better, but I've seen some quit in Randy Moss when he feels he's playing with subpar talent around him that will always rank him just below being one of the greats to ever play the game.

Also, Rice put up those number when he was 39-41 years of age, regardless of how proficient the Raiders were on offense. A guy that old should not be one of the best players on your team, least of all at WR.
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Old 10-03-2009, 02:25 PM    (permalink
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Shouldn't matter since the Moss supporters are basing their argument strictly on stats anyway. Plenty of talented WRs have put up monster numbers on bad offensive teams.
Last year on an 0-16 team, Calvin Johnson had 78/1331/12 TDs.

Granted, those Raiders teams weren't much better, but I've seen some quit in Randy Moss when he feels he's playing with subpar talent around him that will always rank him just below being one of the greats to ever play the game.

Also, Rice put up those number when he was 39-41 years of age, regardless of how proficient the Raiders were on offense. A guy that old should not be one of the best players on your team, least of all at WR.
He wasn't, RIch Gannon was the best player on that offense.
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JPP is a better and more productive player than Brandon Graham
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Is Shaun Hill a top 10 QB? Definitely not. Is he a top 20 one? Almost certainly.
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Most misleading 10+ sack season EVER.
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Old 10-03-2009, 02:45 PM    (permalink
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Good luck with you and that army of One.

No current or retired NFL player or coach would ever agree with you, but to each his won.
I doubt there's not any player or coach that wouldn't agree with me. And if they don't, it's more because Rice is so well-respected. This isn't about who the most respected WR is though, is it?

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Someone else who never saw Rice play in his prime on Sundays and in the playoffs/SBs, but feels qualified to judge him based on ...nothing.

For future reference, go check out Rice's MVP game against CInncinati in SB 23.
I've seen plenty of Rice, and Moss is just better. I saw the Cincy game, so what? Because I think Moss is better, I must not have seen Rice?

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The biggest difference between Rice and Moss is from the neck up, always will be, and why if I had to choose, I'd always want Rice over Moss on my team. Jerry Rice makes your entire WR corps and offense better, because of the leadership he brings in the lockerroom and on the field.
Who cares. Again, it's not about who's the most respected or who helped more people train. Moss makes everyone on his team better by being on the field. He extended Cris Carter's useful life, made TE's like Kleinsasser look like studs, and made Jeff George, Randall Cunningham, and Daunte Culpepper look a whole lot better than they actually were.
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Old 10-03-2009, 02:53 PM    (permalink
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Just like the Raiders...wait....

I dont get your argument. every top WR made his team better. Rice did, moss did, Fitzgerald does and Andre Johnson does. thats what a good player does. Rice has been the best WR in the league basically every season he played. He is the most productive player ever and WR is not a position that has a long career really. Moss needed 16 games to break Rices record that he had in 12 games. And he had Tom Brady, Wes Welker and a very very pass happy offense as well as no running game what so ever and the most aggressive play calling ever maybe (going for it on 4th and 10 with 35 points up (exaggeration))
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Old 10-03-2009, 03:00 PM    (permalink
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He wasn't, RIch Gannon was the best player on that offense.
I said 'one of the best' players on the Raiders offense.
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