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Old 10-08-2009, 02:57 PM    (permalink
Shiver
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Originally Posted by Cicero View Post
Colston is an elite receiver and Pierre Thomas is one of the best RBs in the league although they obviously weren't round 1 picks. It's always been the defense that's been the weak link not Brees. If he and Eli traded places there would have been no need for the David Tyree to make that catch and he would have a ring. I think winning a ring is one of the most overrated categories in analyzing any player because no matter how great you are you have to have a decent supporting cast. Marino isn't any less of a QB for not winning a ring and most people know that if you put him in a different situation he easily could have won a ring as well.

For one season the only QBs I would take before Brees is Peyton Manning and maybe Tom Brady. Brees is accurate, makes great decisions, and can carry a team on his shoulders. Their defense has really stepped up and with the emergence of Thomas he won't have to shoulder so much of the load this year though.
Maybe? Anyways..

Yes I do think Brees' stats are inflated, but every QB is influenced by his situation. All the arguments for Brees' can apply to Peyton Manning. They both play in favorable systems, indoors, in warm weather, with great talent around them. The position of QB and the entirety of the offense is a symbiotic relationship, which leads me to my next point:

As for the 1 playoff win argument, that kills me every time. When will we all grow up and admit that Football is a 45-man team sport? I know QB is an important, even crucial, position; but how can we judge one man on the performances of forty-four others? If you could prove to me that Drew Brees' pathetic performance was the foremost reason for their losses then I might give you a little credit, but I have a feeling he played relatively well in some of those "losses."
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Old 10-08-2009, 03:17 PM    (permalink
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Every successful QB gets called a "system QB with a great supporting cast" by somebody. Fact is you can't prove it one way or another most of the time. It's just a tired, lazy way to argue QB's that never goes anywhere.
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Old 10-08-2009, 03:22 PM    (permalink
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Colston is an elite receiver and Pierre Thomas is one of the best RBs in the league although they obviously weren't round 1 picks. It's always been the defense that's been the weak link not Brees. If he and Eli traded places there would have been no need for the David Tyree to make that catch and he would have a ring. I think winning a ring is one of the most overrated categories in analyzing any player because no matter how great you are you have to have a decent supporting cast. Marino isn't any less of a QB for not winning a ring and most people know that if you put him in a different situation he easily could have won a ring as well.

For one season the only QBs I would take before Brees is Peyton Manning and maybe Tom Brady. Brees is accurate, makes great decisions, and can carry a team on his shoulders. Their defense has really stepped up and with the emergence of Thomas he won't have to shoulder so much of the load this year though.
Good post.

But Note... I didn't say anything about Brees NOT winning the SB. I noted 1 playoff win in 7 years as a starter. There's a difference.
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Old 10-08-2009, 03:23 PM    (permalink
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Maybe? Anyways..

Yes I do think Brees' stats are inflated, but every QB is influenced by his situation. All the arguments for Brees' can apply to Peyton Manning. They both play in favorable systems, indoors, in warm weather, with great talent around them. The position of QB and the entirety of the offense is a symbiotic relationship, which leads me to my next point:

As for the 1 playoff win argument, that kills me every time. When will we all grow up and admit that Football is a 45-man team sport? I know QB is an important, even crucial, position; but how can we judge one man on the performances of forty-four others? If you could prove to me that Drew Brees' pathetic performance was the foremost reason for their losses then I might give you a little credit, but I have a feeling he played relatively well in some of those "losses."
Can I get that kind of passion in defense of Romo? No. You will never see it from a non Cowboys fan.

Brees being overrated as he is, gets that excuse.
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Old 10-08-2009, 03:30 PM    (permalink
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Every successful QB gets called a "system QB with a great supporting cast" by somebody. Fact is you can't prove it one way or another most of the time. It's just a tired, lazy way to argue QB's that never goes anywhere.
I disagree. There are QBs that are only good with a supporting cast and there are QBs who don't need it to be good.

Case in point: Minnesota Vikings with Tavaris Jackson (for years)versus the Minnesota Vikings with Brett Favre (who joined the team after training camp)

That's why it blows me away that this thread is about Favre being overrated. Hogwash!

Brees was so bad in San Diego that they had the need to draft a QB with the No. 1 overall pick. People quickly forget (outside of Chargers fans who can atest) how very so so/bad he was in his earlier years. But with a loaded offense and an air it out coach, he's now golden boy.
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Old 10-08-2009, 03:38 PM    (permalink
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Brees was so bad in San Diego that they had the need to draft a QB with the No. 1 overall pick. People quickly forget (outside of Chargers fans who can atest) how very so so/bad he was in his earlier years. But with a loaded offense and an air it out coach, he's now golden boy.
1) He was bad in San Diego. He's not bad now. Every QB needs someone to throw the ball too. I can't name a WR that was on the team when Brees was playing for them.

2) Loaded Offense? What loaded offense do you speak of? Marques Colston was a real big surprise to everyone. His connection with Brees is amongst the best in the league. Bush, Moore, Henderson, Shockey? NO Loaded is Reggie Wayne, Marvin Harrison, Brandon Stokely, and Dallas Clark. That's loaded. Loaded is Terrell Owens, Roy Williams, Marion Barber, Jason Witten. That's loaded.
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Old 10-08-2009, 04:11 PM    (permalink
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http://www.theonion.com/content/news...es_brett_favre

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Old 10-08-2009, 04:14 PM    (permalink
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i already laughed hard about the title

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"I was looking at a newspaper, and it said, 'Favre Sacks Former Team,' and at that point I realized we really missed one," ESPN president George Bodenheimer told reporters. "I just want to apologize to our viewers. Had the Favre-Packers connection dawned on us sooner, fans could have enjoyed the same quality sports journalism they have come to expect from ESPN: driving storylines into the ground and exploiting every one of their subplots to the point of nausea."
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"I only wish these two teams played again this year so we could have a chance to fix our mistake," Doria added.
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Old 10-08-2009, 04:16 PM    (permalink
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Pierre Thomas is one of the best RBs in the league
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Old 10-08-2009, 04:27 PM    (permalink
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The top 3 QBs are Brady, Peyton and either Eli, Big Ben or Rogers. Brees is no where near the conversation. Old man Favre is better than Brees.
Damn you, D-Unit. Rodgers. Rodgers. Aaron Charles Rodgers.

So utimately you're saying he's a product of a system? So he's like a Big 12 quarterback?

I'm not sure if you can call him overrated because of that. If he didn't put up the numbers he does, I see the argument for overrated.
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Old 10-08-2009, 05:22 PM    (permalink
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Damn you, D-Unit. Rodgers. Rodgers. Aaron Charles Rodgers.

So utimately you're saying he's a product of a system? So he's like a Big 12 quarterback?

I'm not sure if you can call him overrated because of that. If he didn't put up the numbers he does, I see the argument for overrated.
Matt Leinhart >>>> Aaron Rogers.
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Old 10-08-2009, 05:35 PM    (permalink
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Matt Leinhart >>>> Aaron Rogers.
Aaron Rodgers>>> Romo. :)
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Old 10-08-2009, 05:35 PM    (permalink
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Brees>Rodgers by far IMO. I will say like this far apart Brees>>>>>>Rodgers
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Old 10-08-2009, 05:36 PM    (permalink
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Good post.

But Note... I didn't say anything about Brees NOT winning the SB. I noted 1 playoff win in 7 years as a starter. There's a difference.
That you did, I read it but my mind skipped to Superbowl. I still think that most of that blame should go to the defense, but with how the Saints are playing right now I think we'll get to see just how well Brees can do with a solid supporting cast.
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Old 10-08-2009, 05:37 PM    (permalink
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Aaron Rodgers>>> Romo. :)
Although I totally agree, I guess my joke was too lame for most people to get.

I'd take Rogeurs over Romo any day.
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Old 10-08-2009, 05:54 PM    (permalink
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HAHAHA. Classic. So it's not really about calling Brees overrated, because he is. It's about a Cowboys fan calling Brees overrated. OK. That makes a huge difference all of a sudden. LOL.

diab man... i like you, but your post made no sense. Stop giving excuses for Brees. I know he's the QB of your favorite team and all, but I'm not buying his excuses. For a QB to be in my top 3, they have to have accomplished something in their career. Brees has yet to do that. You can criticize Romo. I'm fine with that. I'm not the one calling him a top 3 QB.

This is why Brees is overrated by people who call him a Top 3 QB.

1) 1 playoff win in 7 years as a starting QB.

2) His stats are inflated by playing under a pass happy offense.

3) He's had a great supporting cast on offense.

Plug some other QB in the top 5-10 range in that offense and that supporting cast and you'd find a QB with better numbers to what Brees produces. Cutler, Palmer, McNabb, Eli, Rogers... you name it.

Brees is a product of the system boys and girls.

The top 3 QBs are Brady, Peyton and either Eli, Big Ben or Rogers. Brees is no where near the conversation. Old man Favre is better than Brees.
I don't care if he's the QB of my favorite team or the QB of one of my most hated teams, Brees production alone ranks him as one of the best in the league. Isn't one of the objectives for an offensive coordinator and head coach is to put your QB in a system where they would flourish? Peyton Manning and Tom Brady have both been put in situations so that they can flourish. The talent around them helps as it would any good QB. Why else would the Patriots have traded for Randy Moss and Wes Welker or the Colts sign Reggie Wayne and Dallas Clark long term?

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For a QB to be in my top 3, they have to have accomplished something in their career. Brees has yet to do that. You can criticize Romo. I'm fine with that. I'm not the one calling him a top 3 QB.
Your rating system shows a serious flaw right there. According to your system then Trent Dilfer would be a better QB than Dan Marino because he won a Super Bowl and Marino did not. As far as playoff victories are concerned then Rex Grossman would be a better QB than Drew Brees because he has won more playoff games. So would Jake Plummer, Doug Johnson, Mark Brunell (2005), Brad Johnson, Michael Vick, and Vinny Testaverde to just name a few. Aaron Rodgers, who you rank as one of your top QBs has not won a playoff game in his tenure with Green Bay yet outranks Brees.

In his playoff games these are Brees statistics:

2004 AFC Wild Card vs. NYJ: 31/42, 319 yards, 2 TD, 1 Int, sacked 11 times. QB rating 101.2.
Jets 20-17 OT

2006 Divisional Round vs. PHI: 20/32, 243 yards, 1 TD, 0 Int, sacked 3 times. QB rating 96.2
Saints 27-24

2006 NFCCG vs. CHI: 27/49, 354 yards, 2 TD, 1 Int, sacked 3 times. QB rating 83.2.
Bears 39-14

Romo has led his team to the playoffs 2/3 years but how much of that is a credit to him or a credit to how strong the defense is to bail him out of situations? As Shiver pointed out, there are two sides to the ball and Brees just has not had that top defense until this year. Up until their performance this year the New Orleans defense has consistently been anemic, especially the pass defense. Is it Drew's fault that the defense consistently gets shredded?

Sure, people can say he has a great supporting cast now but did anybody see a 7th round draft pick out of Hofstra in Marques Colston making the impact he's made? Did anybody see an undrafted free agent running back in Pierre Thomas making the impact he's made? How about another undrafted running back in Mike Bell who was cut by the Denver Broncos making the impact he's made? How about another undrafted free agent wide receiver out of Toledo in Lance Moore having the impact he's made? Did anybody see those guys making the impact they've made? I guarantee you no one did. It has to do with great scouting and a little luck that those players have contributed the amount that they have.

Compared to what the Colts have, Patriots have, and Cowboys did have then New Orleans is winning with a bunch of no names. Had anybody really heard of Lance Moore until last season where he jumped onto the scene catching 79 passes for 928 yards and 10 TDs. It was Brees getting him the ball to make that happen.

If you look at Brees statistics while in San Diego it took him three years to develop (2001 bench jockey, 2002 and 2003) in 2004 he threw for over 3,000 yards and passed for 27 touchdowns compared to 7 interceptions and had a 104.8 passer rating for the system. In 2005 he again threw for over 3,000 yards and had a passer rating of 89.2. However, in his time in San Diego he was sacked an average of 22.5 times. In New Orleans he has been sacked an average of 15.6 times, a difference of 6.9 sacks sustained a season. How can someone develop into a great QB if he's constantly under pressure?

Brees is widely considered to be one of the more accurate QBs in the league, one of the smartest, and to possess one of the quickest releases.
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Old 10-08-2009, 06:47 PM    (permalink
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Old 10-08-2009, 07:22 PM    (permalink
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Drew Brees wasn't all bad in San Diego, he was bad in his first three years, but then again almost every Quarterback in NFL history wasn't awesome in their first three years, but from then on he had excellent performances.

He's been a top tier QB for nearly 6 years now, it's not as if he landed under Payton and exploded.

http://www.nfl.com/players/drewbrees...e?id=BRE229498
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Old 10-08-2009, 07:47 PM    (permalink
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Although I totally agree, I guess my joke was too lame for most people to get.
I guess mine was too. :(
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Old 10-08-2009, 07:53 PM    (permalink
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Drew Brees wasn't all bad in San Diego, he was bad in his first three years, but then again almost every Quarterback in NFL history wasn't awesome in their first three years, but from then on he had excellent performances.

He's been a top tier QB for nearly 6 years now, it's not as if he landed under Payton and exploded.

http://www.nfl.com/players/drewbrees...e?id=BRE229498
But Romo is in the 4th year of his career as starter and everyone apparently knows what he is already. Are you willing to say people don't understand Romo yet? I'd like to hear that answer.

But this is about overrated QBs anyways, Brees ain't top 3. No way.
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Old 10-08-2009, 08:06 PM    (permalink
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But Romo is in the 4th year of his career as starter and everyone apparently knows what he is already. Are you willing to say people don't understand Romo yet? I'd like to hear that answer.

But this is about overrated QBs anyways, Brees ain't top 3. No way.
Go on believing that. You're in the minority and all of the stats, on field performances, and evidence points to the contrary.
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Old 10-08-2009, 08:08 PM    (permalink
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I don't care if he's the QB of my favorite team or the QB of one of my most hated teams, Brees production alone ranks him as one of the best in the league. Isn't one of the objectives for an offensive coordinator and head coach is to put your QB in a system where they would flourish? Peyton Manning and Tom Brady have both been put in situations so that they can flourish. The talent around them helps as it would any good QB. Why else would the Patriots have traded for Randy Moss and Wes Welker or the Colts sign Reggie Wayne and Dallas Clark long term?



Your rating system shows a serious flaw right there. According to your system then Trent Dilfer would be a better QB than Dan Marino because he won a Super Bowl and Marino did not. As far as playoff victories are concerned then Rex Grossman would be a better QB than Drew Brees because he has won more playoff games. So would Jake Plummer, Doug Johnson, Mark Brunell (2005), Brad Johnson, Michael Vick, and Vinny Testaverde to just name a few. Aaron Rodgers, who you rank as one of your top QBs has not won a playoff game in his tenure with Green Bay yet outranks Brees.

In his playoff games these are Brees statistics:

2004 AFC Wild Card vs. NYJ: 31/42, 319 yards, 2 TD, 1 Int, sacked 11 times. QB rating 101.2.
Jets 20-17 OT

2006 Divisional Round vs. PHI: 20/32, 243 yards, 1 TD, 0 Int, sacked 3 times. QB rating 96.2
Saints 27-24

2006 NFCCG vs. CHI: 27/49, 354 yards, 2 TD, 1 Int, sacked 3 times. QB rating 83.2.
Bears 39-14

Romo has led his team to the playoffs 2/3 years but how much of that is a credit to him or a credit to how strong the defense is to bail him out of situations? As Shiver pointed out, there are two sides to the ball and Brees just has not had that top defense until this year. Up until their performance this year the New Orleans defense has consistently been anemic, especially the pass defense. Is it Drew's fault that the defense consistently gets shredded?

Sure, people can say he has a great supporting cast now but did anybody see a 7th round draft pick out of Hofstra in Marques Colston making the impact he's made? Did anybody see an undrafted free agent running back in Pierre Thomas making the impact he's made? How about another undrafted running back in Mike Bell who was cut by the Denver Broncos making the impact he's made? How about another undrafted free agent wide receiver out of Toledo in Lance Moore having the impact he's made? Did anybody see those guys making the impact they've made? I guarantee you no one did. It has to do with great scouting and a little luck that those players have contributed the amount that they have.

Compared to what the Colts have, Patriots have, and Cowboys did have then New Orleans is winning with a bunch of no names. Had anybody really heard of Lance Moore until last season where he jumped onto the scene catching 79 passes for 928 yards and 10 TDs. It was Brees getting him the ball to make that happen.

If you look at Brees statistics while in San Diego it took him three years to develop (2001 bench jockey, 2002 and 2003) in 2004 he threw for over 3,000 yards and passed for 27 touchdowns compared to 7 interceptions and had a 104.8 passer rating for the system. In 2005 he again threw for over 3,000 yards and had a passer rating of 89.2. However, in his time in San Diego he was sacked an average of 22.5 times. In New Orleans he has been sacked an average of 15.6 times, a difference of 6.9 sacks sustained a season. How can someone develop into a great QB if he's constantly under pressure?

Brees is widely considered to be one of the more accurate QBs in the league, one of the smartest, and to possess one of the quickest releases.
http://blog.nola.com/checkitout/2009...es_the_sc.html
I guess I should know from being on the forum this long that there's no changing the mind of a loyal fan. OK, so you think Brees is a Top 3 QB in the league. Carry on.

My logic is not flawed. Marino withstood the test of time. He accomplished a hell of a lot without winning the SB. Winning the SB is not the tell all story like you keep acting as if I'm saying (which I am not). There's a difference between what Marino did in his entire career and what Dilfer and those others did. Winning 1 playoff game in 7 years as a starter... that's Brees' line. That's not "Marino-like" in any way you wanna spin it. Please don't try to compare the 2 or say that Brees is on that path. If you do, then that only justifies me saying he's overrated.

Justifying his stats is exactly the reason why he's overrated in the first place. 1) He's in a pass happy offense. 2) The defense is so bad, that they're always playing catch up.

Enough with the excuses of him losing. A QBs job is to win. ...and THAT is how they are all measured. Fair or not.
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Old 10-08-2009, 08:09 PM    (permalink
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Go on believing that. You're in the minority and all of the stats, on field performances, and evidence points to the contrary.
I have yet to hear anyone actually say Drew Brees is a Top 3 QB. Anyone care to put themselves on that ledge???
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Old 10-08-2009, 08:10 PM    (permalink
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I have yet to hear anyone actually say Drew Brees is a Top 3 QB. Anyone care to put themselves on that ledge???
Drew Brees is the third-best QB in the NFL.
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Old 10-08-2009, 08:11 PM    (permalink
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But Romo is in the 4th year of his career as starter and everyone apparently knows what he is already. Are you willing to say people don't understand Romo yet? I'd like to hear that answer.

But this is about overrated QBs anyways, Brees ain't top 3. No way.
Brees is the third best QB in the NFL and it's not even that close really.

Romo, the jury is still out on him as far as I'm concerned he has the continuing potential to be a very good quarterback. I don't like Jason Garrett and for the last two seasons and beyond I've been saying he's neither the Cowboys long term answer at head coach, nor is he that effective as a play caller.

I think that if Romo had a better offensive coordinator and was handled a little better in the offensive design and what he was asked to do he'd be a very dangerous QB and he's shown he can be in the past.

Then again I'm not talking about Romo, I'm talking about Brees, who's probably the most accurate passer in the NFL, with all respect to warner and Pennington's completion % I've never seen a guy put the ball where he does so often in such difficult situations, it's a privilege to watch him play and anyone who utters the word "system" or "inflated stats" is only kidding themselves. The only thing about Brees I don't like as a quarterback is the goddamn jersey he wears.
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