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Old 10-15-2009, 12:02 AM    (permalink
7-11
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Originally Posted by BlindSite View Post
Carolina (I'm not a homer, average age is one of the youngest in the NFL)
I beg to differ. What exactly have you got in the way of young talent? Williams and Stewart i like alot. Otah looks very good at right tackle. Jon Beason, Thomas Davis and Chris Gamble on D are about the only young players that really stand out to me. Can't really comment on Ryan Kalil cause i haven't exactly concentrated on him, is Charles Godfrey playing well?

I really don't think that is even remotely close to being a premier bunch of young players and i haven't even brought up the massive hole you have at quarterback.
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Old 10-15-2009, 12:04 AM    (permalink
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Pretty much every major player on the Giants is 30 and under. The only exceptions are LG Rich Seubert, RT Kareem McKenzie, and then Feagles and Tynes.
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Old 10-15-2009, 12:16 AM    (permalink
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I beg to differ. What exactly have you got in the way of young talent? Williams and Stewart i like alot. Otah looks very good at right tackle. Jon Beason, Thomas Davis and Chris Gamble on D are about the only young players that really stand out to me. Can't really comment on Ryan Kalil cause i haven't exactly concentrated on him, is Charles Godfrey playing well?

I really don't think that is even remotely close to being a premier bunch of young players and i haven't even brought up the massive hole you have at quarterback.
Offense:

DeAngelo Williams
Jon Stewart

Jeff King / Dante Rosario (neither post eye popping stats, but both have been excellent this year)
Otah is a very good right tackle
Kalil is one of the best centers in the NFC right now, very quietly so, makes no mistakes, makes excellent calls and never gives up sacks or whiffs on blocks. IMO he's a top 5 player on the team.

I'll admit, QB and WR are a little sparse, but there is like with kenny moore and Steve Smith is only just hitting 30 with no real injury history.

Defense:

Charles Johnson
: Becoming a force and likely will replace Peppers as a starter next year, he's been excellent this year splitting snaps nearly 50/50 with Brayton
DT is a little bare
Everette Brown: Showing a lot of promise and rapidly improving, instrumental against washington.
Beason already one of the best linebackers in the NFL
Thomas Davis dominant this year and IMO will push for a probowl spot
James Anderson starting in the place of Diggs and playing some really good football behind him is Dan Connor who's still realistically coming back from a knee injury, looks very promising in limited action.
Gamble already a very good CB
Captain Munnerlyn 7th round pick, is already a nickel back in his rookie year beating out higher picks and 2 veterans
Richard Marshall Only in his 3rd or fourth year, very stout at the point of attack, excellent in run support, good cover guy
Godfrey quality FS, roaming, runs, good in support.

Three corners, one safety, two defensive ends, four linebackers all at starting quality.

Two running backs, two tight ends, a tackle a centre and WR coming up and some legitimate depth at guard over the last two years drafting who're already starting to sub Keydrick Vincent.

The skill positions on defense are set, the framework is there on offense. All that's needed realistically for the team to be strong for another 5 years is a guy at wide receiver, a guard or two (who are likely already on the team) and a quarterback.

It's impossible for me to stress just how limiting the QB play has been this year. 21 points through offense turn overs against Philly, 2 scores given to Washington because of turnovers inside the 20 and five consecutive three and outs preceded and followed by INTs against Dallas.

2 Losses and 1 very close win through poor QB play has really hidden just how good the nucleus of this team is. Last year with Delhomme playing well they dismantled a lot of opponents.

I agree QB and DT need fixing, but right now, the team is strong and young everywhere else. Just those two key positions through injury or bad play are letting the team down. Losing 3 DTs before the season always puts a dampner on things.
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Old 10-15-2009, 12:20 AM    (permalink
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Blindsite, I'm sorry man but the Panthers have no place in this discussion. It's gotten to the point of blind homerism now lol.

The fact is the team is where they are in small part because of the slow development of a few of those young players you speak of, and to be honest it really isn't an elite bunch anyways. Compare that to the Ravens, Giants, and Jets.

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Old 10-15-2009, 12:22 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by BlindSite View Post
Offense:

DeAngelo Williams
Jon Stewart

Jeff King / Dante Rosario (neither post eye popping stats, but both have been excellent this year)
Otah is a very good right tackle
Kalil is one of the best centers in the NFC right now, very quietly so, makes no mistakes, makes excellent calls and never gives up sacks or whiffs on blocks. IMO he's a top 5 player on the team.

I'll admit, QB and WR are a little sparse, but there is like with kenny moore and Steve Smith is only just hitting 30 with no real injury history.

Defense:

Charles Johnson
: Becoming a force and likely will replace Peppers as a starter next year, he's been excellent this year splitting snaps nearly 50/50 with Brayton
DT is a little bare
Everette Brown: Showing a lot of promise and rapidly improving, instrumental against washington.
Beason already one of the best linebackers in the NFL
Thomas Davis dominant this year and IMO will push for a probowl spot
James Anderson starting in the place of Diggs and playing some really good football behind him is Dan Connor who's still realistically coming back from a knee injury, looks very promising in limited action.
Gamble already a very good CB
Captain Munnerlyn 7th round pick, is already a nickel back in his rookie year beating out higher picks and 2 veterans
Richard Marshall Only in his 3rd or fourth year, very stout at the point of attack, excellent in run support, good cover guy
Godfrey quality FS, roaming, runs, good in support.

Three corners, one safety, two defensive ends, four linebackers all at starting quality.

Two running backs, two tight ends, a tackle a centre and WR coming up and some legitimate depth at guard over the last two years drafting who're already starting to sub Keydrick Vincent.

The skill positions on defense are set, the framework is there on offense. All that's needed realistically for the team to be strong for another 5 years is a guy at wide receiver, a guard or two (who are likely already on the team) and a quarterback.

It's impossible for me to stress just how limiting the QB play has been this year. 21 points through offense turn overs against Philly, 2 scores given to Washington because of turnovers inside the 20 and five consecutive three and outs preceded and followed by INTs against Dallas.

2 Losses and 1 very close win through poor QB play has really hidden just how good the nucleus of this team is. Last year with Delhomme playing well they dismantled a lot of opponents.

I agree QB and DT need fixing, but right now, the team is strong and young everywhere else. Just those two key positions through injury or bad play are letting the team down. Losing 3 DTs before the season always puts a dampner on things.
Yeah good points, but i still think you might be overrating the overall talent on the roster. And as you said, the qb play is holding them back and can you honestly see how that is going to change in the next few years? I know it's ridiculous predicting that far into the future but a solid team like Carolina is going to struggle to get into a position to acquire a premier qb talent. I kind of liken them to the Pacers in the NBA, solid, edge of the playoffs team, just hard to see them pushing a superbowl berth.
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Old 10-15-2009, 12:23 AM    (permalink
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I love me some ravens. Between the nasty Oline, sexy arm, Ray Rice and the defense that is always one of the deepest in the league, I have to go with the ravens.
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Old 10-15-2009, 12:27 AM    (permalink
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Took a quick look at the Colts' 26 and unders. They can field a pretty good team, considering.

Offense

QB Curtis Painter
RB Joseph Addai
RB Donald Brown

WR Anthony Gonzalez
WR Austin Collie
WR Pierre Garcon

LT Charlie Johnson
LG Mike Pollak
C Jamey Richard
RG Dan Federkeil
RT Tony Ugoh

Bench - RB Mike Hart, RB Chad Simpson, TE Gijon Robinson, TE Jacob Tamme, G/C Kyle DeVan

Defense

RDE Keyunta Dawson
NT Antoino Johnson
DT Daniel Muir
LDE Eric Foster

WLB Clint Session
MLB Freddy Keiaho
SLB Philip Wheeler

CB Jerraud Powers
SS Melvin Bullitt
FS Antoine Bethea
CB Kelvin Hayden

Bench - DT Fili Moala, LB Ramon Humber, CB Marlin Jackson, CB Jacob Lacey, CB Tim Jennings, CB TJ Rushing, S Jamie Silva, S Aaron Francisco

Special Teams

K/P Pat McAfee
KR/PR TJ Rushing
LS Jacob Tamme?
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Old 10-15-2009, 12:32 AM    (permalink
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Blindsite, I'm sorry man but the Panthers have no place in this discussion. It's gotten to the point of blind homerism now lol.

The fact is the team is where they are in small part because of the slow development of a few of those young players you speak of, and to be honest it really isn't an elite bunch anyways. Compare that to the Ravens, Giants, and Jets.
I listed 16 players who've begun or are proving their worth, around the same numbers I count on the Giants, Ravens, Green bay and Arizona teams.

Sure the guys might not supplant the guys on those particular rosters, but they'd start for a hell of a lot of teams in the NFL, especially where the running backs, secondary, linebackers and linemen are concerned.

Oh and the team is solely where it is, because of the QB position. There is no way you can argue against that, the protection has been good, the defense has been very good at times and the only real let downs have come through turnovers and crappy execution in the passing game.

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Yeah good points, but i still think you might be overrating the overall talent on the roster. And as you said, the qb play is holding them back and can you honestly see how that is going to change in the next few years? I know it's ridiculous predicting that far into the future but a solid team like Carolina is going to struggle to get into a position to acquire a premier qb talent. I kind of liken them to the Pacers in the NBA, solid, edge of the playoffs team, just hard to see them pushing a superbowl berth.
That's my fear as well. I can see a massive overhaul of the coaching staff and QB position coming, it depends on matt moore and what happens this upcoming off season.

Something has to be done though or the veterans will move on and the young guys won't be happy where they are.

Delhomme is done as far as I'm concerned as a starting QB in the NFL unless he finds a way to massively turn around his game. The only difference between this year (1-3) and last (12-4) is Jake Delhomme's performance.
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Old 10-15-2009, 12:36 AM    (permalink
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I hate seeing everyone post their teams young guys. Who cares if they're young, what we do care about is if they're young AND good. With that said, the Ravens and Jets seem to be far and away the most young and talented teams out there.
Well we're one of the best teams in the league and the only part of our team that doesn't qualify as young is the interior oline. Thus I felt like listing our "young" roster. I think it's fair to say that the giants are in the discussion for best young talent.
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Most misleading 10+ sack season EVER.
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Old 10-15-2009, 12:40 AM    (permalink
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Well we're one of the best teams in the league and the only part of our team that doesn't qualify as young is the interior oline. Thus I felt like listing our "young" roster. I think it's fair to say that the giants are in the discussion for best young talent.
The Gaints are quite literally the example in the NFL right now of smart franchise building.

Them, the Eagles, the Patriots and the Steelers, perfect examples of how football teams should be run.
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Old 10-15-2009, 12:41 AM    (permalink
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The Gaints are quite literally the example in the NFL right now of smart franchise building.

Them, the Eagles, the Patriots and the Steelers, perfect examples of how football teams should be run.
I agree, for the last few years I have looked upon them as the "model" franchise.
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Old 10-15-2009, 12:42 AM    (permalink
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Matt Stafford, QB
Kevin Smith, RB
Jerome Felton, FB - He's looked good running the ball
Calvin Johnson, WR
Brandon Pettigrew, TE
Gosder Cherilous, RT

Louis Delmas, FS -
Ernie Sims, WLB - Reason he didn't start was he wasn't 100%
Cliff Avril, DE


Offense has some really nice building blocks, high end talent. Kevin Smith was a third round pick and can be labeled a steal. His case really is the lack of holes and push by the offense line. He has a really bad YAC but I still really like the burst he has and you can tell the offense doesn't function the same when he's not out there. I think once you see Backus replaced and the LG position figured out Kevin Smith will break out.

The defense doesn't really have much young talent. Sammie Lee Hill has won the starting job, not saying much but he beat out other veterans. Last year draft pick Landon Cohen was a force in pre-season, haven't heard his name much since. Jason Hunter has been in a force and been a nice pick up.
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Old 10-15-2009, 12:42 AM    (permalink
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The Gaints are quite literally the example in the NFL right now of smart franchise building.

Them, the Eagles, the Patriots and the Steelers, perfect examples of how football teams should be run.
I know it's premature to say dynasty until we win another 2 superbowls but I fully believe we will be top SB contenders for the next 5 years at least, and with Reece's ability to own the draft it could be longer.
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JPP is a better and more productive player than Brandon Graham
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Is Shaun Hill a top 10 QB? Definitely not. Is he a top 20 one? Almost certainly.
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Most misleading 10+ sack season EVER.
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Old 10-15-2009, 12:49 AM    (permalink
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I know it's premature to say dynasty until we win another 2 superbowls but I fully believe we will be top SB contenders for the next 5 years at least, and with Reece's ability to own the draft it could be longer.
I tend to agree, there's literally no weaknesses on the Giants unit with the maturation of Webster at CB. I'd like to see a top flight play making MLB once pierce is gone but outside of that I don't see any issues at all on the line up.

It's one of the reasons I hate the Giants for one week the last two years. Other than that I love watching them play.

Ever read "the GM" ? Giants fans would love it, it's got a lot of stuff from just before the superbowl year and it's a really interesting read due to the strategy and inner workings involved, especially since the rewards were reaped just a year after it is set. One of my favourite NFL books.
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Old 10-15-2009, 12:52 AM    (permalink
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I don't like NFL books very much. Then again I haven't been reading much outside the realms of economics, politics and warfare for a while so it might be something to think about for mixing things up.
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JPP is a better and more productive player than Brandon Graham
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Is Shaun Hill a top 10 QB? Definitely not. Is he a top 20 one? Almost certainly.
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Most misleading 10+ sack season EVER.
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Old 10-15-2009, 12:54 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Rosebud View Post
I don't like NFL books very much. Then again I haven't been reading much outside the realms of economics, politics and warfare for a while so it might be something to think about for mixing things up.
Honestly, it's money you will not regret spending. I read it in a weekend, started reading and could not put it down. Strahan's book is kind of cool, even though it's not exactly in depth.

My library is the same, almost all politics, war, very weighty in depth tomes, light NFL books are a good read for the most part, but the GM changed the way I look at football teams and made me a big time Giants fan after my first love.
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Old 10-15-2009, 12:59 AM    (permalink
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Raiders are pretty young but we suck so we dont count
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Old 10-15-2009, 01:10 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by BlindSite View Post
Honestly, it's money you will not regret spending. I read it in a weekend, started reading and could not put it down. Strahan's book is kind of cool, even though it's not exactly in depth.

My library is the same, almost all politics, war, very weighty in depth tomes, light NFL books are a good read for the most part, but the GM changed the way I look at football teams and made me a big time Giants fan after my first love.
When I read for entertainment I read sci-fi or fantasy books, favorite pure entertainment books for me were the Chronicles of Amber series, Snow Crash and the Wild Cards series (although I only read the first 6 books of it).

I'll give it a shot at some point but there's too much I still need to watch before I can get to reading something just for entertainment.
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Old 10-15-2009, 01:21 AM    (permalink
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I am going to beyond the simple 'my team is great, here's why...' and talk a little bit about a few teams I am really impressed with:

Top-3 Young O-Lines

Baltimore

LT - Jared Gaither (23)
LG - Ben Grubbs (25)
OC - Matt Birk (33)
RG - Chris Chester (26)
RT - Michael Oher (23)

This group is scary good. They are prototypical of what you would want in an O-Line, young, nasty, big time talent with a veteran Center to make the line calls. The team has invested a lot in the draft and that results have been an offense that is one dominant WR away from an elite offense. What is crazy is Gaither gets hurt and they put in Marshal Yanda and don't skip a beat.

Denver

LT - Ryan Clady (23)
LG - Ben Hamilton (32)
OC - Casey Wiegmann (36)
RG - Chris Kuper (26)
RT - Ryan Harris (24)

Now they are not uniformly young, but there is no team who has a better pair of bookend tackles that I would rather have than this team. Clady has become one of, if not the, premier LT in the NFL already. If I'm not mistaken, he hasn't allowed a sack yet. These guys paved the way for Jay Cutler's 4,000+ yard passing attack and are now allowing Kyle Orton to produce exceptional numbers.

Atlanta (homer, but accurate)

LT - Sam Baker (24)
LG - Justin Blalock (25)
OC - Todd McClure (32)
RG - Harvey Dahl (28)
RT - Tyson Clabo (27)

The guys that no one talks about; after all, it is so much easier to focus on Ryan, White, Gonzalez and Turner. But the results speak for themselves: Matt Ryan has only been sacked 19 times in twenty games, Michael Turner has been allowed to get a head of steam and reach the second level often. The scary thing is Baker and Blalock are only getting better. I remember a lot of people were down on Baker, but I tell you that he has been exceptional at LT.
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Old 10-15-2009, 01:56 AM    (permalink
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I've gotta give it to the Giants. Jerry Reese is just too good.
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Old 10-15-2009, 09:36 AM    (permalink
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Gholston gets a star, because he is not and probably won't be the Pro Bowler we thought we were going to get. Good role player though.
He has 12 CAREER solo tackles most of which have come on special teams. He can't even get on the field in garbage time.

Exactly what "role" is he "playing"?
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Old 10-15-2009, 09:39 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by BlindSite View Post
Honestly, it's money you will not regret spending. I read it in a weekend, started reading and could not put it down. Strahan's book is kind of cool, even though it's not exactly in depth.

My library is the same, almost all politics, war, very weighty in depth tomes, light NFL books are a good read for the most part, but the GM changed the way I look at football teams and made me a big time Giants fan after my first love.
Not to get off the topic but that sounds exactly like my bookshelf as well. I have read the GM and I did find it to be very good in terms of showing how Accorsi put some of the team together. It was a little repetitive but all in all a book I would recommen especially to a Giants fan.
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Old 10-15-2009, 10:01 AM    (permalink
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saints are pretty young (well not on average but thats slanted due to a few really old guys)
The best parts of our OLine are young (Brown, Evans, Nicks)
All our running backs are 26 tops
All our good receivers(Moore, Colston Maechem) are 26 tops
Our Dline is normal (Clancy and Grant are 31 but easily replaceable, Will Smith is 28 the rest is younger)
Linebackers are a bit old but bad anyways
DB's are very young with the exception of sharper.

I think 15 of the 22 starters(Goodwin, Stinch, Shanle, Clancy,Grant,Fujita and Sharper are bound to be gone by then) could be around in four years if the staff wants.
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Old 10-15-2009, 10:32 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Geo View Post
26 years old and under is what I would consider young.
i.e. still on their first contract.
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Old 10-15-2009, 10:42 AM    (permalink
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What do you consider young? I only looked at guys from the Ravens who are 27 and under, and who start or contribute frequently. While the Ravens have players getting up there in age (Mason, Birk, Ray, Reed, Gregg, Pryce), they still have a nice core of young players, especially on offense. We really need to add some youth to the D-line.

Offense
QB Joe Flacco-24
T Jared Gaither- 23
G Ben Grubbs- 25
C/G Chris Chester- 26
T Michael Oher-23
G/T Marshal Yanda -25
FB Le'Ron McClain-24
RB Ray Rice-22
WR Mark Clayton -27

Defense
DL Haloti Ngata-25
OLB/DE Terrell Suggs-27
LB Tavares Gooden-25
CB Domonique Foxworth-26
CB Fabian Washington-26
S Dawan Landry-26
Clayton is lacking in the talent department. I like that our O-line is really young though.
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