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Old 02-21-2011, 04:09 PM    (permalink
bigbluedefense
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Phil Jackson has won more rings than anybody. His solution when going against a team with a great bench has always been simple in the playoffs:

Play your starters the whole game.

And it's worked obviously. Your bench wins in the regular season and keeps your guys fresh for the postseason. Come playoff time, you just need 2 solid bench guys who can rotate in when need be.

If we can keep Mozgov and resign Turiaf to a reasonable contract, that's 1 rotation guy.

Now we just need to get another. That's what the draft is for. Sure, outside the top 5 picks in the draft you usually won't find a great player, but if you draft well, you can fill out your bench in the draft.

We found Fields in the 2nd didn't we?

Even if you feel the bench is a big factor in winning championships, I don't see why you feel it would be so difficult to find replacements to fill out your bench.

Look at Orlando for example. They "improved" their depth with some moves this season right? Well has it led to any change in their win/loss %? No! Bc bench players are bench players.

I've been watching basketball for a long long time. Basketball was my first love growing up. Some things never change. The bench isn't as critical as you think.

Bench players are very replacable. Star players are not. When you get a chance to get a star, go get him.

Ask Patrick Ewing if merely having solid role players around you is enough to get over the hump.

The Knicks have been there, done that.
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Old 02-21-2011, 04:14 PM    (permalink
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I didn't say he would start sucking but the whole point of him wanting out is cause Denver is not in position to win. The lineup as it would stand after this trade( I think Moz stays and without looking at any moves we can make after) does not win you a title which defeats the whole purpose of the move.

People who actually know basketball give a crap about the bench. Every team that has won a title has won with good role players off the bench you cant win with out them.

This isn't a video game in real basketball you need role players.

If your going to rest Stat and just play Melo you are taking a huge hit on offense what are you talking about? Amare is our only post presence on O. Who is going to score in the post with the roster as it would stand after this trade? Seriously don't worry I will wait for you to come up for 1 offensive option we would have cause we would have none we would be even more jumper based with those lineups.

Your under rating the role of the bench. You wont win crap with just 2 players.

Felton would came back again why? and your getting CP3 away from the NBA owned Hornets how?
He wants out of Denver bc he wants to live the NY lifestyle. It has nothing to do with winning. It has nothing to do with anything other than lifestyloe. His wife gets to market herself in NY, he gets endorsement deals and the bright lights, and NYC clubs are better than Denver clubs.

That's why he wants to be here.

I find it funny how you think I know nothing about basketball. Whether you like it or not, we're probably getting Melo.

And when you see the results, you'll realize how much you're overrating our current role players.

We're the ******* 6th seed. If these guys were so great we wouldn't be the 6th seed.

If you were a Knicks fan in the 90s, you'd probably be one of the guys who wouldn't want to trade the Oakleys and Anthony Masons of the world for a Sprewell.

I've seen this story before. I know my basketball. Trust me, you don't want to pass on Melo to keep these scrubs on our team.
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Old 02-21-2011, 04:19 PM    (permalink
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In 92 or 93, I'm forgetting which year it was, the Knicks had a chance to trade Oakley and Xavier McDaniel plus a 1st for Dominique Wilkins.

And we passed on it. Bc we thought our role players were enough around Ewing to take out Jordan and Pippen.

It was ********. A Ewing/Wilkins combo wouldn't fall short to Jordan every single year in 6 or 7 games like we did. Ewing needed that one guy he could kick it out to, and he never had it in his prime.

We can't fall for that same trap. Whether you think Melo is overrated or not, he's 1 BILLION times better than anyone else on our team. Hell, he's better than Stat too.

So why the hell wouldn't you trade a bunch of role players for him? The whole planet outside of Knick fans thinks this is a fair trade.

Why?

Bc they know our players aren't that good. To me, this trade is robbery on our part.

I just don't get why you guys are so against it. I really don't.
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Old 02-21-2011, 04:23 PM    (permalink
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Phil Jackson has won more rings than anybody. His solution when going against a team with a great bench has always been simple in the playoffs:

Play your starters the whole game.

And it's worked obviously. Your bench wins in the regular season and keeps your guys fresh for the postseason. Come playoff time, you just need 2 solid bench guys who can rotate in when need be.

If we can keep Mozgov and resign Turiaf to a reasonable contract, that's 1 rotation guy.

Now we just need to get another. That's what the draft is for. Sure, outside the top 5 picks in the draft you usually won't find a great player, but if you draft well, you can fill out your bench in the draft.

We found Fields in the 2nd didn't we?

Even if you feel the bench is a big factor in winning championships, I don't see why you feel it would be so difficult to find replacements to fill out your bench.

Look at Orlando for example. They "improved" their depth with some moves this season right? Well has it led to any change in their win/loss %? No! Bc bench players are bench players.

I've been watching basketball for a long long time. Basketball was my first love growing up. Some things never change. The bench isn't as critical as you think.

Bench players are very replacable. Star players are not. When you get a chance to get a star, go get him.

Ask Patrick Ewing if merely having solid role players around you is enough to get over the hump.

The Knicks have been there, done that.
That is not what Phil does at all. You have never seen his whole starting lineup play all 48 minutes.

Name a team that won a title with only 2 players off the bench? not any of Phil's teams cause he had more then 2 guys off the bench.

Thats not what Orlando did at all they traded VC for Hedo cause Vince Carter was awful and Otis Smith decided to take a gamble on Arenas cause they have history that has nothing to with Depth

If anything they gave away depth when they traded Gortat in that deal and now when Dwight has to rest they are screwed.

Landry fields is a exception not the norm most 2nd rounders are in the D-league or are in International Ball. Seriously for every 2nd round steal you can name I can name more busts.

Ask MJ if having a bench helped him at all? How about Shaq? Larry Bird? Magic? I can name a bunch more great players who won titles with having role players

Teams win with a bench including the Bulls and Lakers.

Fine show us your plan BBD play the role of Donnie Walsh and show me what kind of moves you want to make to improve the depth this trade kills. A team with guys like Melo and Amare need depth you cant argue against it.
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Old 02-21-2011, 04:28 PM    (permalink
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In 92 or 93, I'm forgetting which year it was, the Knicks had a chance to trade Oakley and Xavier McDaniel plus a 1st for Dominique Wilkins.

And we passed on it. Bc we thought our role players were enough around Ewing to take out Jordan and Pippen.

It was ********. A Ewing/Wilkins combo wouldn't fall short to Jordan every single year in 6 or 7 games like we did. Ewing needed that one guy he could kick it out to, and he never had it in his prime.

We can't fall for that same trap. Whether you think Melo is overrated or not, he's 1 BILLION times better than anyone else on our team. Hell, he's better than Stat too.

So why the hell wouldn't you trade a bunch of role players for him? The whole planet outside of Knick fans thinks this is a fair trade.

Why?

Bc they know our players aren't that good. To me, this trade is robbery on our part.

I just don't get why you guys are so against it. I really don't.
It might have to do with the fact that Wilkins was in his 30's and was on the start of decline

No the whole planet doesn't think its a fair trade there are plenty of people who don't think its a good deal.
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Old 02-21-2011, 04:38 PM    (permalink
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It's impossible to say exactly what I'd do. Bc you can't predict trades and guys who can become available in the future.

I'd eye guys like Dalembert at Center, Felton or Bibby at PG in 2012 if CP3 is impossible.

And just try to get a good player in the draft in 2012. I don't think this trade makes us title contenders this year. I think we need a 2 year plan and this is another step in putting together a lineup that can compete for a title in 2012.
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Old 02-21-2011, 04:41 PM    (permalink
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Dalembert who is coming of a 12 million dollar contract and Mike Bibby who is a shell of himself sounds really good.
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Old 02-21-2011, 05:32 PM    (permalink
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Phil Jackson has won more rings than anybody. His solution when going against a team with a great bench has always been simple in the playoffs:

Play your starters the whole game.

And it's worked obviously. Your bench wins in the regular season and keeps your guys fresh for the postseason. Come playoff time, you just need 2 solid bench guys who can rotate in when need be.

If we can keep Mozgov and resign Turiaf to a reasonable contract, that's 1 rotation guy.

Now we just need to get another. That's what the draft is for. Sure, outside the top 5 picks in the draft you usually won't find a great player, but if you draft well, you can fill out your bench in the draft.

We found Fields in the 2nd didn't we?

Even if you feel the bench is a big factor in winning championships, I don't see why you feel it would be so difficult to find replacements to fill out your bench.

Look at Orlando for example. They "improved" their depth with some moves this season right? Well has it led to any change in their win/loss %? No! Bc bench players are bench players.

I've been watching basketball for a long long time. Basketball was my first love growing up. Some things never change. The bench isn't as critical as you think.

Bench players are very replacable. Star players are not. When you get a chance to get a star, go get him.

Ask Patrick Ewing if merely having solid role players around you is enough to get over the hump.

The Knicks have been there, done that.
Uhhh, okay. Orlando didn't trade for more role players. They traded for Richardson who they thought was good starter, Hedo is ****, and Gilbert Arenas who I personally believed was one of the worst players in the NBA well before the trade. They traded away Vince Carter and their one decent depth player in Gortat as LT said. I thought that trade was horrible when they did it and I still think it's horrible now. Completely different circumstances.

Also I don't understand the Phil Jackson reference. One of the main reasons the Lakers have won titles is because of their bench, mainly Lamar Odom. Phil has had a damn good bench where ever he's gone, in addition to star players.

You also ignored my Spurs reference, who have been one of the best teams of the past decade and have done so with one star player, two really good players, and a great bench.

The reason I wouldn't do this deal is because Melo, for as amazing of a player that he may be, is a one dimensional star. This isn't LeBron James who can score, pass, play defense and grab rebounds. This isn't Tim Duncan who can score, grab rebounds, block shots and play superb D. Melo is a fantastic scorer, maybe the best in the league along with Durant, but he doesn't do much else well. Solid rebounder, poor defender, not a willing passer, etc.

I want Melo, badly, but at the cost of giving up a lot of valuable pieces? No. Let's take our chances in the off-season, keep our pieces for either playing or trading, and go from there.

I also don't know where you're getting the idea that everyone thinks this is an amazing deal for the Knicks. There are plenty of sports writers who aren't in favor of it. Heck, Charles Barkley, who knows basketball, said he sure as hell wouldn't do this deal. I also forgot to mention that I believe Steve Kerr said he didn't like the deal either. Doesn't think Melo and Stat are a great fit to play together, which I kind of agree.
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Old 02-21-2011, 09:40 PM    (permalink
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You guys all know more than me. Was this a good move?
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Old 02-21-2011, 09:42 PM    (permalink
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You guys all know more than me. Was this a good move?
Not unless they can find a way to build a bench and the CBA lets us steal a Chris Paul( Who probably wont hit fa and we have no assets to trade for him) or Deron Williams.
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Old 02-21-2011, 09:44 PM    (permalink
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You guys all know more than me. Was this a good move?
Great move. We got rid of a bunch of role players for a bonafide superstar. Just have to build some depth next summer.
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Old 02-21-2011, 09:53 PM    (permalink
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I'm ******* pumped to have Melo on board.
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Old 02-21-2011, 09:56 PM    (permalink
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Great move. We got rid of a bunch of role players for a bonafide superstar. Just have to build some depth next summer.
You need role players to win championships too. And it's not like the players we gave up were crappy players. Chandler, Gallo, and Mozgof were all very productive and had a lot of upside.

I don't like the trade, personally. That said, I like Melo, I just don't think trading away every valuable asset for a one-dimensional superstar is a great move.

Nuggets had no leverage and they essentially got all of our young, high upside, players who could either be an asset to the team or traded for another valuable commodity in the future. As much as I hate to admit it, this screams Dolan.

It'll be fun to watch Melo and Stat but all I can say is I hope this is right move or we're going to me doomed to another decade of mediocrity.
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Old 02-21-2011, 10:00 PM    (permalink
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You need role players to win championships too. And it's not like the players we gave up were crappy players. Chandler, Gallo, and Mozgof were all very productive and had a lot of upside.
.
Of course but role players are much easier to acquire than superstars. You have a chance to get Melo, you do it. We weren't going to win with the team we had so I don't see how this isn't a good trade.
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Old 02-21-2011, 10:01 PM    (permalink
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ty Forenci at least I know I am not the only one
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Old 02-21-2011, 10:06 PM    (permalink
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yeah i agree with LT and Forenci for the most part. Felton and Gallonari are no bums, losing those two is like salt in a wound right now. But Coach K screamed Mello's praises when he coached him for the USA team, so we'll see. Mello + Amare is fun to watch, but we need another star. CP3 or bust for me next year.
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Old 02-21-2011, 10:12 PM    (permalink
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Will Melo and Amare work in a Dantoni system? I feel like they might need more of a half court game with those two.
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Old 02-21-2011, 10:47 PM    (permalink
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I don't see how any Knicks fan could be adverse to this trade. I think we are CLEARLY a better team right now...

PG: Billups/Douglas
SG: Fields/Brewer/Douglas
SF: Anthony/Williams/Walker/Buike
PF: Stoudamire/Anthony
C: Turiaf/Barron/Stoudamire

We have so many options on the wing - we'll be fine there.

Of course we're lacking a solid backup PG and a third big man. But we were lacking those before this trade also...
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Old 02-21-2011, 10:53 PM    (permalink
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We haven't signed Barron. Formality I know since no one else wants him.

We have no starting center Turiaf cant start he will foul out quick. Stat cant play center the whole game.

We still need a back up point cause Douglas, Anthony Carter and Rautins are not going to cut it.

Oh and are only trade able assets right now are Brewer and Azbuike's insured contracts and oh no trade able draft picks.

So pretty much we gutted the team yet still have the same needs as before. We need a center had one developing but traded him and still no backup point cause Billups cant play Felton minutes.
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Old 02-21-2011, 11:20 PM    (permalink
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What should we have done then?

Kept our current roster and stayed slightly above .500?

Traded for Shane Battier?

I'm curious to know what you would have rather done?
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Old 02-21-2011, 11:24 PM    (permalink
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the knicks weren't gonna win this year with or without carmelo. carmelo insisted he wanted to play for the knicks. why couldn't carmelo and the knicks just agree on a under the table deal where he signs with the knicks when he becomes a FA that way leaving the supporting cast relatively intact? was it cap issues?
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Old 02-21-2011, 11:28 PM    (permalink
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Melo risked losing $20 million if we waited.
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Old 02-21-2011, 11:29 PM    (permalink
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gpngc View Post
What should we have done then?

Kept our current roster and stayed slightly above .500?

Traded for Shane Battier?

I'm curious to know what you would have rather done?
Not Bid against myself there was no need to give them as much since Knicks were the only team he was going to sign with.

So basically Dolan raised the offer cause the Nets punked him . No need to give them all 3 of your trade able draft picks that you could have used in other deals.

I also wouldn't have swapped Felton for Billups especially when you are giving up Gallo cause that is a downgrade and you are again giving up more then necessary. Doing the PG swap gave Denver Luxury tax savings which would be more then enough for Denver. Lux tax savings Felton as trade asset for them Chandler and the 1st plus 1 of Gallo or Moz not both was more then enough but no.

Dolan gave them Luxury Tax saving as well as all your assets that he had that is dumb.
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Old 02-21-2011, 11:33 PM    (permalink
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OK.

So if the Nuggets simply said "if you don't give us all of those pieces, we'll keep him", then you'd be fine to walk away and just keep this team, never get Melo, wait two years, and hope that Gallo develops and hope that CP3 OR Deron still wants to come here even though we probably won't be much better than a 6 seed?
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Old 02-21-2011, 11:36 PM    (permalink
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No, we should have been smart and waited until the off-season. Sure, you can't predict what will happen with the CBA but you also can't predict it will allow us to add significant talent in the future. Trying to make personnel decisions on what may or may not be relevant is really silly.

I don't think anyone is trying to say we're better off without Melo, it's just that now we put all our eggs into one basket. I still don't think we're a contender this year, and I'm still not sold on this team going forward.

Melo and Stat are both one dimensional players. They're going to need a real PG to coexist together. And we're at least a good two years away from that happening.
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