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Old 12-04-2009, 02:09 PM    (permalink
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I have been critical of him throwing a little too much at times and he clearly did make a mistake on that goal line scenario. But again, almost every team in the league is having this same discussion.

You still can't ignore the fact that this team moves the ball really well on the whole.

They are! We are #6 in the league in rushing.
At times... That goaline... c'mon now. Ginger panics too much and passes when he panics. ...and it's waaaaay more than one goalline mistake that he has committed in the past. Every team's faults shouldn't justify his.

This team moves the ball well...? Did you see the Green Bay and Washington games?

Ginger will fail us in the playoffs.
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Old 12-04-2009, 02:13 PM    (permalink
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Oh and how about his going into shot gun on every other 3rd and 1 now? What the hell is that? You have Barber, just give him the ball out of the I.
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Old 12-04-2009, 02:13 PM    (permalink
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Saying you'd take him over Gilbride isnt exactly a glowing endorsement. haha. Garrett legitimately hurts our team throughout games. His red zone and goal line play calling is horrendous. 1st and goal on the one yard line. Let's pass three times in a row, despite having Marion Barber back there. Oh and while we're passing, lets not even have both TEs go out. We should be a fantastic red zone team and goal line team and yet, we're not. Barber and the TEs are secondary for whatever reason. He tries to get way too cute and his pass first mentality makes him awfully predictable. He really does become obsessed with the passing game.

He's even admitted to forgetting about Felix Jones in games. He doesnt know how to use the talent he has. We have three backs who all average 5 yards per carry but, the passing game will always be numero uno, despite match up. There is no reason why Dallas shouldnt be one of the best running teams in the nfl. NFL match up also had a nice little piece on Garrett's failure to adjust his play calling to the blitz as well. Romo is the most heavily blitzed QB in the league. He is getting hit more than ever and there is always a man free coming right at him and this is almost a constant. And forget about any mass protections...we have to have 4 guys going out all times running deep routes. And Garrett never holds himself accountable for anything. He's normally no where to be found after one of his head scratcher play calling days. As has been noted by the Dallas Morning News. Garrett def. has some good ideas but, we can do a helluva lot better, I def. feel we put up good yardage despite having Garrett...he has cost us many a game before and he will again. It's hard to trust him.
That is a great point. He never steps up and takes accountablility.
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Old 12-04-2009, 02:14 PM    (permalink
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Saying you'd take him over Gilbride isnt exactly a glowing endorsement. haha. Garrett legitimately hurts our team throughout games. His red zone and goal line play calling is horrendous. 1st and goal on the one yard line. Let's pass three times in a row, despite having Marion Barber back there. Oh and while we're passing, lets not even have both TEs go out. We should be a fantastic red zone team and goal line team and yet, we're not. Barber and the TEs are secondary for whatever reason. He tries to get way too cute and his pass first mentality makes him awfully predictable. He really does become obsessed with the passing game.

He's even admitted to forgetting about Felix Jones in games. He doesnt know how to use the talent he has. We have three backs who all average 5 yards per carry but, the passing game will always be numero uno, despite match up. There is no reason why Dallas shouldnt be one of the best running teams in the nfl. NFL match up also had a nice little piece on Garrett's failure to adjust his play calling to the blitz as well. Romo is the most heavily blitzed QB in the league. He is getting hit more than ever and there is always a man free coming right at him and this is almost a constant. And forget about any mass protections...we have to have 4 guys going out all times running deep routes. And Garrett never holds himself accountable for anything. He's normally no where to be found after one of his head scratcher play calling days. As has been noted by the Dallas Morning News. Garrett def. has some good ideas but, we can do a helluva lot better, I def. feel we put up good yardage despite having Garrett...he has cost us many a game before and he will again. It's hard to trust him.


It's Ironic, because we have the opposite problem! We run 3 times in a row! hahaha. And then we get opposing fans come on and say Eli this and Eli that. But we would rather run the ball and fail, then throw a 1, 2, or 3 yard TD pass and you know what? Pad his stats a bit. If we threw the ball we win the Chargers game. Instead we run the ball, get a holding penalty and run some more out of shotgun, and then kick a FG go up 6. They score, and win. That's our boy Gilbride, that fool. Maybe you guys should get him, and we can take JG. After all his family is from here, so it may work! : P

That's the thing you guys are no a running game. There is a reason why I expect Romo to get over 300 yards passing in a game. When I see that I am not surprised. If Eli does that, in our system, I am over joyed. Then I think why did he have so many yards? What happened to our running game? When I see Romo throw 2 or 3 TDs and throw for 300 yards, I am thinking that's par for the course he is playing in.

Now the same thing I tell our fans. The call sheet you guys have game for game reflects your system. Maybe you guys don't have enough running plays in the red zone. Maybe most of the plays are passing because he feels like you should be able to execute. You have 3 backs like you said, and 1 all pro TE, a good WR corps, and a mobile QB to run it if no one is open. I'd be pretty confident too. Then again, I don't mind passing on the goal line. After watching our team run 3 straight times and kick a FG, it sort of gets to you.

Of course Romo is blitzed a lot. He is a gun slinger and is prone to making mistakes. On top of that your system is a passing system, so therefore it's logical for them to blitz you. Are they to sit back and let him own the defense with all the weapons you guys have?

Like I said no coach is perfect and there are a lot more OCs I am sure worse off than JG. One of them is our OC!
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Old 12-04-2009, 02:25 PM    (permalink
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I'm not saying we have to be a heavy running team, but we resort to low success rates when we pass on short yardage situations. Our redzone offense is bad... but our goalline is worse. Shotgun all the time also frustrates me. At least by lining up under center, you keep the defenses guessing and makes our offense less predicatble.
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Old 12-04-2009, 02:31 PM    (permalink
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Yet we are 19th in attemts!

Your stat about not being a power rushing team I think holds little weight. We are first in the league in 1st down % rushing...

I think those numbers are very real and over the last 3 years, it's a large enough sample size.

We are a pretty good running team, but we are not a power rushing team. That is reality.

As for attempts, keep in mind our run pass ratio this year is closer to 50/50 than it was the last 2 years so I think he is running the ball more.

But guys, Aikman has said this over and over again. Running the ball is important, but you score points in this league by getting chunks of yardage in the passing game. I think the thing that has hampered us a little this year is the consistency with our new #1 WR, Austin. He's been really good, then disappear. I think the more he plays, the more that will even out and will directly result in the offense being more productive, IMO. I think this offense will get better as Austin gets more and more comfortable week to week.

Look, I'm not saying that JG is red Jesus and can do no wrong. I just think he gets criticized too much because if you look back over the last 3 years, his offense moves the ball really well. It's like the Romo in December thing; when you don't have success, people want to point to one thing that will fix all the problems. The reality is that most of the time it's a combination of things.
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Old 12-04-2009, 02:34 PM    (permalink
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At least by lining up under center, you keep the defenses guessing and makes our offense less predicatble.
Now this I agree with you 100%!
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Old 12-04-2009, 02:36 PM    (permalink
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I'm not saying we have to be a heavy running team, but we resort to low success rates when we pass on short yardage situations. Our redzone offense is bad... but our goalline is worse. Shotgun all the time also frustrates me. At least by lining up under center, you keep the defenses guessing and makes our offense less predicatble.
So do we though? It happens. Do I like when we do that now. But think how the call sheet is designed for that week. You go by what you are successful in running, and what the flaw of the defense is. Then you create the call sheet and categorize the plays. Perhaps you have more passing plays in those situations than running. Why? Maybe because you pass so much, that teams expect a run, so you pass because you have the weapons to do so. Would I do that? No, I am more traditional in that sense, but the logic isn't totally flawed. I can see the thought process, but don't agree with it.

This is from our Falcons game

3rd and 3.. Instead of a slant, screen, draw, or pure run. What do we do?


3rd and 3 at ATL 46 (Shotgun) E.Manning pass deep right to M.Manningham pushed ob at ATL 13 for 33 yards (C.Jackson).

Now it works, but still 33 yards when you need only 3?


3rd and 4 at ATL 21 (Shotgun) E.Manning pass short right to K.Boss to ATL 3 for 18 yards (M.Peterson).


We used to run curls and hitches like it was our job. 3rd and 4 I expect something like that to Smith. Find the zone get the first down like in the past. What do we do? 18 yards? WTF? Why? We need only 4. All these plays work, but I certainly don't like them. I know a lot of Giants fans thought the same thing in the game day thread.


3rd and 2 at NYG 41 (Shotgun) E.Manning pass short middle to H.Nicks to NYG 48 for 7 yards (C.Lofton).

3rd and 2.. Could we see a draw or a slant? Nope, we throw it again. Now this isn't as bad because a 7 yard pass is something that can be done, and not faulted. Again, not my style, but ok, i like can deal with the pattern ran. The other plays were just idiotic, but I can understand the thought process. I, of course, don't agree with it.




So basically all OCs do stuff like this. To what extent and how many times differs, but JG is not the only guy. That's my point there are A LOT of other OCs, including our OC, that does stuff like this. It comes down to your philosophy for your system, the team you're playing, and how you create the call sheet for that week.
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Old 12-04-2009, 02:52 PM    (permalink
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So when your playing the GB packers who have argueably one of the best corners in the league, you should script a playsheet to only run the ball a total of 11 times?

How about when you draft a guy in the first round and he has proven he is explosive, yet fail to give him a touch when you need a spark against a tough divisional opponite.

He has cost us as many games with his playcalling than he has won for us with his playcalling.
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Old 12-04-2009, 02:54 PM    (permalink
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So do we though? It happens. Do I like when we do that now. But think how the call sheet is designed for that week. You go by what you are successful in running, and what the flaw of the defense is. Then you create the call sheet and categorize the plays. Perhaps you have more passing plays in those situations than running. Why? Maybe because you pass so much, that teams expect a run, so you pass because you have the weapons to do so. Would I do that? No, I am more traditional in that sense, but the logic isn't totally flawed. I can see the thought process, but don't agree with it.

This is from our Falcons game

3rd and 3.. Instead of a slant, screen, draw, or pure run. What do we do?


3rd and 3 at ATL 46 (Shotgun) E.Manning pass deep right to M.Manningham pushed ob at ATL 13 for 33 yards (C.Jackson).

Now it works, but still 33 yards when you need only 3?


3rd and 4 at ATL 21 (Shotgun) E.Manning pass short right to K.Boss to ATL 3 for 18 yards (M.Peterson).


We used to run curls and hitches like it was our job. 3rd and 4 I expect something like that to Smith. Find the zone get the first down like in the past. What do we do? 18 yards? WTF? Why? We need only 4. All these plays work, but I certainly don't like them. I know a lot of Giants fans thought the same thing in the game day thread.


3rd and 2 at NYG 41 (Shotgun) E.Manning pass short middle to H.Nicks to NYG 48 for 7 yards (C.Lofton).

3rd and 2.. Could we see a draw or a slant? Nope, we throw it again. Now this isn't as bad because a 7 yard pass is something that can be done, and not faulted. Again, not my style, but ok, i like can deal with the pattern ran. The other plays were just idiotic, but I can understand the thought process. I, of course, don't agree with it.




So basically all OCs do stuff like this. To what extent and how many times differs, but JG is not the only guy. That's my point there are A LOT of other OCs, including our OC, that does stuff like this. It comes down to your philosophy for your system, the team you're playing, and how you create the call sheet for that week.
A lot of that is also dependent on the current score of the game. Ginger is too risky on the most critical parts of the game. Football is a simple sport if you go with the high percentage plays.
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Old 12-04-2009, 02:57 PM    (permalink
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At times... That goaline... c'mon now. Ginger panics too much and passes when he panics. ...and it's waaaaay more than one goalline mistake that he has committed in the past. Every team's faults shouldn't justify his.

This team moves the ball well...? Did you see the Green Bay and Washington games?

Ginger will fail us in the playoffs.
D, sure those two games weren't good. GB is a little different than Wash. If RW doesn't blow two huge plays that take points off the board, I think that game has a very different look. Wash just wasn't good. But unless you are NO, you aren't going to put up 30 points every game.
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Old 12-04-2009, 02:58 PM    (permalink
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So when your playing the GB packers who have argueably one of the best corners in the league, you should script a playsheet to only run the ball a total of 11 times?

How about when you draft a guy in the first round and he has proven he is explosive, yet fail to give him a touch when you need a spark against a tough divisional opponite.

He has cost us as many games with his playcalling than he has won for us with his playcalling.
How about 2 similar play calls where Sam Hurd runs the same route, 2 straight times against Champ Bailey in Denver on 3rd and 4th down with a chance to win at the very end of the game? Niiiiiiiice.
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Old 12-04-2009, 02:59 PM    (permalink
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D, sure those two games weren't good. GB is a little different than Wash. If RW doesn't blow two huge plays that take points off the board, I think that game has a very different look. Wash just wasn't good. But unless you are NO, you aren't going to put up 30 points every game.
We have more talent on offense than NOR does.
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Old 12-04-2009, 03:06 PM    (permalink
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He has cost us as many games with his playcalling than he has won for us with his playcalling.
Assinine.

If you consider that since he and Wade arrived, we are 30-13. So he gets zero credit for the play calling in those 30 wins, and he gets all the blame in the 13 wins?

It is not a black and white world folks.

I guarantee you he didn't 'call different plays' in the Washington game versus the Oakland game. It's about execution.



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Old 12-04-2009, 03:06 PM    (permalink
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A lot of that is also dependent on the current score of the game. Ginger is too risky on the most critical parts of the game. Football is a simple sport if you go with the high percentage plays.
Still doesn't make it good football. We were never behind that much at any point. So those plays weren't high %, and personally not a fan of them. I like high percentage plays, but football is far from a simple sport. Soon teams will see what you're trying to do from scouting tendencies. Again, it goes back to how his red zone call sheet is broken down. How many running and passing plays does he have? How many per situation? Down and distance?

Plus how much Flexibility does Romo have in the system? Can he back out of the play? Eli has that in our system, where 1. he can run the play 2. given 2 plays and picks one 3. can change the play totally. I guess it depends on what the OC wants for that play and what flexibility he is allowed. Can Romo change the play? I thought the game plan vs us was pretty good first time we played. That damn draw play was deadly.
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Old 12-04-2009, 03:07 PM    (permalink
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We have more talent on offense than NOR does.

I don't think I agree with you there.
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Old 12-04-2009, 03:10 PM    (permalink
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I don't think I agree with you there.
That's because you haven't seen what a good OC can do with our horses.
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Old 12-04-2009, 03:12 PM    (permalink
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That's because you haven't seen what a good OC can do with our horses.
Just our of curiosity, what is you're ideal system for the horses you have?
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Old 12-04-2009, 03:15 PM    (permalink
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Still doesn't make it good football. We were never behind that much at any point. So those plays weren't high %, and personally not a fan of them. I like high percentage plays, but football is far from a simple sport. Soon teams will see what you're trying to do from scouting tendencies. Again, it goes back to how his red zone call sheet is broken down. How many running and passing plays does he have? How many per situation? Down and distance?

Plus how much Flexibility does Romo have in the system? Can he back out of the play? Eli has that in our system, where 1. he can run the play 2. given 2 plays and picks one 3. can change the play totally. I guess it depends on what the OC wants for that play and what flexibility he is allowed. Can Romo change the play? I thought the game plan vs us was pretty good first time we played. That damn draw play was deadly.
The damn draw play is deadly. But when your strategy is to use it for every key running play, then you paint yourself in a corner.

I'm really not sure how much flexibility Romo has. I can't imagine he doesn't have any... but he's not Peyton Manning out there either.

...and when you have Marion Barber, Tashard Choice and Felix Jones running the ball on short yardage situations is "easy football". Plus, you get less criticism if it doesn't work.
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Old 12-04-2009, 03:30 PM    (permalink
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Assinine.

If you consider that since he and Wade arrived, we are 30-13. So he gets zero credit for the play calling in those 30 wins, and he gets all the blame in the 13 wins?

It is not a black and white world folks.

I guarantee you he didn't 'call different plays' in the Washington game versus the Oakland game. It's about execution.



-
I said as many won as lost. Which means for every game his play calling directly resulted in a win, you can find a game where his play calling resulted in a loss.

I'd say you could probably find 5 or so either way.

I guarantee you he didn't call different plays either. However this further proves my point by showing what a good gameplan against our offense and a bad one.

The skins had a great gameplan to shut us down. Oakland on 3 days rest being a west coast team had none.

Why are divisional games always so tough? Because the teams know each other and have a base on how to gameplan against it. If you fail at making a gameplan or simply get out coached it falls on the people at the top as well as the players on the field.
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Old 12-04-2009, 03:38 PM    (permalink
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The damn draw play is deadly. But when your strategy is to use it for every key running play, then you paint yourself in a corner.

I'm really not sure how much flexibility Romo has. I can't imagine he doesn't have any... but he's not Peyton Manning out there either.

...and when you have Marion Barber, Tashard Choice and Felix Jones running the ball on short yardage situations is "easy football". Plus, you get less criticism if it doesn't work.
Well it depends on what he is doing off it. For instance, next time in a key situation go play action with that play, which you guys did against us. That play, if successful early, opens up the passing game, because teams have to play run. The trick to the play are the keys that defenses are reading. The way the linemen move, DEs are thinking pass and thus are trying to get to Romo, but once he hands off ALL 3 of your backs have sick holes to gash teams with. Now, from that play you can go play action and hit any of the 3 WRs and Witten. Hell, Romo can fake the hand and pull it if he decides to.

I prefer running it short situations but I am not against passing or screens. I like roll out or sprint out passing concepts too. But right off the bat I remember that draw play because it was a sick play. We do it out of shotgun while you guys did it from under center, and then hand off i think.
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Old 12-04-2009, 03:48 PM    (permalink
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That's because you haven't seen what a good OC can do with our horses.
I think you fandom is clouding your objectivity. :)
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Old 12-04-2009, 03:52 PM    (permalink
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Why are divisional games always so tough? Because the teams know each other and have a base on how to gameplan against it. If you fail at making a gameplan or simply get out coached it falls on the people at the top as well as the players on the field.

Doesn't this prove my point?

My point is that more than anything, it comes down to execution.

Look, Norv Turner was no genius. The 90's Cowboys play sheet could be printed on one page! They just executed like MFers.
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Old 12-04-2009, 04:00 PM    (permalink
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Doesn't this prove my point?

My point is that more than anything, it comes down to execution.

Look, Norv Turner was no genius. The 90's Cowboys play sheet could be printed on one page! They just executed like MFers.
No I don't think we are on the same page.

By not being able to gameplan successfully JG has cost us victories. The most recent ones that come to mind is the Packers game which we have illuded to. The point is we knew that they had a good offense and strong corners. But JG failed to dial up an effective gameplan. Blame it on execution if you want...but we ran the ball 11 TIMES!! 11, this is just the most recent...you can go back to multiple games. I'm not saying JG does no good...I'm just saying that he can be out coached and while every coach can, it just seems like he overthinks things sometimes.

for instance
we should run behind LD and Columbo
-but that is what they think we'll do
so we will PA that and throw it on a out to witten
-but that will be their secondary read they know we love witten on 3rd down
so we will blah blah

I think that is JG problem. He is such a analytical thinker that he over does it and misses some of the easier details which he has control over.

Cam Cameron does a great job at this, I wish JG would have picked up more from him.
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Old 12-04-2009, 04:06 PM    (permalink
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Doesn't this prove my point?

My point is that more than anything, it comes down to execution.

Look, Norv Turner was no genius. The 90's Cowboys play sheet could be printed on one page! They just executed like MFers.
There was less parity in the league and w/out the cap, Jerry just bought success.

Coaching is more important now. You can't just blame execution especially when your playcaller is not putting you in position to succeed. Calling low percentage plays in situations is hardly a fault of players failing to execute. It's predictable. Draw play on 3rd and long? Shotgun on 3rd and short? Gee... you expect the players to carry the blame for those failures? Look at the position they're put in. These are real plays that Garrett calls for us!
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