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Old 12-12-2009, 09:46 AM    (permalink
Brent
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Originally Posted by Supporting Caste View Post
I posted statistics that are pretty damn incriminating, and just about everyone acted with nothing but irrational hostility
How are they incriminating? Because the team is more penalized than their opponents? When have the Cowboys ever been a team with great discipline? Adams is a ******* guarantee to give at least two false starts a game. Hell, they were a 6-10 or 7-9 team for several years, recently they've been a 9-7 team. One year were they are 13-3 doesn't make them a good team. Bad teams make mistakes.
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Old 12-12-2009, 10:39 AM    (permalink
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And if we're basing ref hatred off of penalties, the Packers, Ravens and Eagles are the most hated teams in the NFL by refs.
Tell that to the Raiders .... does the phrase "Tuck Rule" mean anything? It does to Al Davis & his very active legal team that sued the league every offseason when that blatant favoritism rule was enforced in the snow in New England in that playoff game ... who do the refs work for? Oh yeah, that league that the Raiders sued. Sportsfans, we live in a cause & effect universe.

Then there's Ed Hochuli & his yellow flags falling on Steelers opponents in Super Bowls & last yr in the regular season on the SD Bolts, was Hochuli suspended or censured even after admitting his obvious mistake? Were any of the infinite number of probable penalties called on that James Harrison 98-yd. return of the Warner pass that broke the game open for the Steelers? I counted at least 4 penalties on both teams.... yeah I know the old story, the refas just let 'em play in the playoffs & keep flags in their pockets -- don't get us started....

Back to the initial thrust of this thread -- yeah there were bogus calls that went against the Cowboys @ Giants like any visiting team, that unwritten rule about the home team getting the benefit of the doubt on ambiguous calls. Those more or less even out over a season schedule with most teams, even the Raiders who were yr. after yr. the most penalized team in the NFL as a team tradition, they've self-enforced since then, I think they got the message about UC penalties being counter productive.

But did they eject Flozell Adams in that same Dallas @ NY game for a flagrant cheap shot? No, all he got was another fine, his 3rd this yr. & that pissed me off, I'm a Cowboys fan who thinks Flozell should've been released a long time ago but like the Rolling Stones sang, You can't always get what you want.

I think there are trends in officiating & hidden agendas with some NFL officials just as was revealed in the NBA in the Donaghy scandal recently, officials are human with human emotions. I think they do punish out of control players & even teams sometimes -- there's an old saying that they don't get mad, they get even. That won't change until they have droids reffing games, get over it.

And Caste, this comes from another Cowboys fans, if you start a thread like this alleging special persecution of a single team, don't be naive, realize you're going get ridiculed -- open that door & you will have to grow a thicker skin.

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Old 12-12-2009, 02:49 PM    (permalink
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Wow this is like the new number ******* 10 here. I seriously cannot believe you thought making this thread would get positive results. Go post this in the Cowboys thread where you might get a real discussion, better yet, maybe the Cowboys should play with more discipline and stop committing stupid ass penalties. God reading all of your comments in the weekly discussions on the cowboys is bad enough.

To answer your question, No there is no conspiracy against the cowboys, nor do refs hate the cowboys. There is no leadership on that team, they should stop making stupid penalties. Every team gets horse **** calls, every team has plays where refs dont see everything. Stop being such a homer. - end rant
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Old 12-12-2009, 02:54 PM    (permalink
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I know how the cowboys feel: when I was in High School my teachers would really come down hard on me, I was constantly sent out of the class and I got told off WAAAY more often then the other kids in the class. Man I felt cheated all the time in High School.

Then I grew up and realized I was just an adolescent brat with a chip on my shoulder who didn't pay attention, skipped class regularly and made it a point to annoy those in charge of keeping order. Maybe it's time the 'Boys do the same.
Were you wearing a Cowboys jersey?
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Old 12-12-2009, 03:04 PM    (permalink
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Were you wearing a Cowboys jersey?
No his father played for the cowboys however.
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Old 12-12-2009, 03:05 PM    (permalink
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Maybe the cowboys should stop committing penalties
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Old 12-12-2009, 03:08 PM    (permalink
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That graph would be so much more accurate if it said "for the colts" vs "for other teams".
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Old 12-12-2009, 03:44 PM    (permalink
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Flozell Adams is the most penalized player in the past like 4 years, maybe that's a big part of it.

or do the refs just hate him too?
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Old 12-12-2009, 03:47 PM    (permalink
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Look back at the Packers-Ravens Monday night game. Yes they are 2 of the MOST penalized teams in the NFL this season....BUT the reffing crew was also the group that throws the most flags of any other crew.

There's all sorts of reasons why penalties are called. Reputation, poor mechanics, dumb aggression, overactive ref crew, etc etc etc etc etc.
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Old 12-12-2009, 04:07 PM    (permalink
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This is hilarious. It's almost like people bitching about free throw differential in basketball to suggest bias or that the game is fixed. Not every team commits the same amount of penalties. Just because the Cowboys are more undisciplined than other teams does not mean the refs "have it out for them" or anything like that.
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Old 12-12-2009, 11:48 PM    (permalink
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Like I posted earlier I don't find them that incriminating. If you look at the 30 years the article pretty much ignores (the most recent 30) the Cowboys are penalized more than their opponents 19 times. What that tells me is that over the last 30 years the Dallas have a little more than half the time (what you would expect if everything averages out) been more ill disciplined than their opponents.
So you're saying that for that 19 year span there was a double standard?
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Old 12-12-2009, 11:53 PM    (permalink
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With all of the paragons of virtue the Cowboys trot out there each year, it's really shocking that they keep getting penalized.

I mean, it's not like horsecollaring and blocking-you-by-shoving-my-hand-in-your-facemask were made into penalties because of your team or anything...

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Old 12-12-2009, 11:55 PM    (permalink
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And Caste, this comes from another Cowboys fans, if you start a thread like this alleging special persecution of a single team, don't be naive, realize you're going get ridiculed -- open that door & you will have to grow a thicker skin.
If anyone has thin skin, it's just about everyone else who couldn't resist replying in this thread without e-screaming and pooping all over themselves. I'm not exactly shaking in my space boots.

The level of RAAAAAAAAGE in some of these clowns shows it's a sore subject for them, though I can't really imagine why.
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Old 12-12-2009, 11:58 PM    (permalink
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With all of the paragons of virtue the Cowboys trot out there each year, it's really shocking that they keep getting penalized.

I mean, it's not like horsecollaring and facemasking were made into penalties because of your team or anything...
I know you're not interested in an actual argument, but it's worth pointing out that those types of penalties are not at all what I had in mind (nor are they the ones that end up mattering in the grand scheme of things).

It's the non-holds on the Jacobs TD runs. It's the unnecessary roughnesses on the Leonard Davises when they block Michael Strahan during a live play. It's the offsides on DeMarcus Ware on a third down stop when Ware was conclusively not past the LOS.
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Old 12-13-2009, 12:15 AM    (permalink
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I know you're not interested in an actual argument, but it's worth pointing out that those types of penalties are not at all what I had in mind (nor are they the ones that end up mattering in the grand scheme of things).

It's the non-holds on the Jacobs TD runs. It's the unnecessary roughnesses on the Leonard Davises when they block Michael Strahan during a live play. It's the offsides on DeMarcus Ware on a third down stop when Ware was conclusively not past the LOS.
1. How do they not matter? You whine and ***** that your team gets penalized a lot and I pointed out that flagrant dirty play has actually been a large part of it in the Cowboys' case. I bet if you broke everything down far enough , the difference between the Cowboys and the middle of the penalty pack each year is one Roy Williams/Erik Williams/Flozell type of guy.

2. Hitting a guy when he's on the ground isn't blocking.

3. Not every hold is seen by a ref. The Cowboys have benefitted from this, too, you know.

3. Offsides calls aren't exactly reviewable. So one bad offsides call that no one could complain about before it was shown in slow motion (everyone I watched that game with thought the call was right when we had just seen it in real-time...it was an incredible first step) is what you're bitching about in this thread.

Everyone else is right. You're just a whiny whiner.

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Old 12-13-2009, 12:27 AM    (permalink
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are you serious? your initial argument, that the cowboys get penalized more than anyone, is the one that, in this quote, you're immediately disregarding, simply so you can whine about a couple of non-calls? have you like, ever watched a game the cowboys weren't involved in? or are you really this pathetically myopic?

but hey, yeah. it's just the cowboys. i'm sure any chargers fan would've agreed with that last season.
Those non-calls affect the call ratio, guy.

My point was more that (obviously) I have no problem with horse collars and facemasks getting called. Refs tend to show varying levels of scrutiny regarding calls more like intentional grounding and holding than anything else.
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Old 12-13-2009, 12:33 AM    (permalink
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1. How do they not matter? You whine and ***** that your team gets penalized a lot and I pointed out that flagrant dirty play has actually been a large part of it in the Cowboys' case. I bet if you broke everything down far enough , the difference between the Cowboys and the middle of the penalty pack each year is one Roy Williams/Erik Williams/Flozell type of guy.
You're whining and bitching that I'm not whining and bitching about flagrant penalties getting called. Ok.

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2. Hitting a guy when he's on the ground isn't blocking.
Blocking a guy during a live play is blocking. I appreciate you not disagreeing with me.

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3. Not every hold is seen by a ref. The Cowboys have benefitted from this, too, you know.
Except it happened right next to the ballcarrier and was visible from all angles.

Also, I've never said Dallas never gets away with penalties. What people like you are failing to consider is the MAGNITUDE of the missed calls. The non-hold on the Jacobs TD was crushing. The offsides on Ware that gave the Giants 7 points in a 4 point game was crushing.

@)#(*&@#(*&(*$(*#$((#*&$(*#&@*(#^*!@^@*&#*&@ of that sort of magnitude take a bit of effort.
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3. Offsides calls aren't exactly reviewable. So one bad offsides call that no one could complain about before it was shown in slow motion (everyone I watched that game with thought the call was right when we had just seen it in real-time...it was an incredible first step) is what you're bitching about in this thread.
Ware was doing things like that on most snaps in most games. Ignorance isn't an excuse.

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Everyone else is right. You're just a whiny whiner.
I'm not a whiner. You're a whiner.

Last edited by njx9 : 12-13-2009 at 12:44 AM. Reason: we have censors. stop circumventing them.
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Old 12-13-2009, 12:36 AM    (permalink
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Those non-calls affect the call ratio, guy.

My point was more that (obviously) I have no problem with horse collars and facemasks getting called. Refs tend to show varying levels of scrutiny regarding calls more like intentional grounding and holding than anything else.
Sadly, the stats that you provided don't support this point at all. All they say is that the Cowboys have more penalties than anyone else.

Is the least penalized team just getting a free pass from the refs? Are the refs ignoring all of their holding calls?
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Old 12-13-2009, 12:46 AM    (permalink
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The problem is that given the nation-wide notoriety of the Cowboys, our problems are hard to get across without sounding like crybabies. Yes, we have national attention at all times. HOWEVER, there is a clear HOF bias, as well as officiating bias. Yeah I guess we're crybabies, but it is what it is. A lot of people in America hate our team, including officials and the HOF committee. If you're doubting, compare the number of HOFers we have with other franchises that have less historical importance.
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Old 12-13-2009, 12:55 AM    (permalink
Ward
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Originally Posted by njx9 View Post
don't EVEN discuss the hall. let me know when anyone from the orange crush gets in and we can talk about a hall bias. you had roughly 10 guys get in during a period in which you went to four super bowls and won one of them.

denver has one player from a similar period of play.

sorry, it IS whining. frankly, it's like a yankees fan kvetching because their entire roster isn't enshrined. you were america's team for a bloody reason, and it's not because everyone on earth hated you. you're not the raiders.
Denver not getting deserving guys in is a separate issue, one I tend to agree with when it comes to most historic greats who played D. Like I said, I realize nobody feels bad for us, but all I'm saying is that it's not like we catch all the breaks (and we have some injustice as well).
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Old 12-13-2009, 01:06 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Ward View Post
Denver not getting deserving guys in is a separate issue, one I tend to agree with when it comes to most historic greats who played D. Like I said, I realize nobody feels bad for us, but all I'm saying is that it's not like we catch all the breaks (and we have some injustice as well).
Yes, so the Cowboys have the same amount of luck, good and bad, as every other team. Every team does not make a thread about it.
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Old 12-13-2009, 01:09 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by njx9 View Post
i'd like you to square this with your original point, that the cowboys are more penalized than anyone else and that there's a clear bias.
You must have misunderstood me.

1. I said I didn't have a problem with Dallas getting called for horsecollars and such. Those should be called.

2. I said non-calls against Dallas' opponents affects the ratio. How can you not understand this?

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since the statements basically have nothing whatsoever to do with each other, can you at least be honest about your intentions for starting this thread? it clearly no longer has anything to do with your original intent and is now solely focused on your whining about how bad the poor cowboys have it.
What? I thought that was my intention from the beginning.

My intention was to post a statistic that no one has explained. The best explanation (and it's a bad one), is that "Well, if you take away 19 years in a row in that one time, turns out Dallas only got called for more penalties 19 our of 30 times."

Compelling stuff.

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oh stop it. you complained about the cowboys getting flagged mroe than anyone. now, you want to suggest that your problem isn't that they flagged when they make obviously dirty plays, you just want to complain because every so often the refs miss a call against YOUR team, which is clearly a national ****ing emergency.
You're the one who has trouble following logic.

I didn't dispute the merit of flagging Roy Williams for a horse collar, and you've tried to discredit my argument with that, all the while saying that I complain that Dallas gets called for too many penalties.

What?

You keep coming up with the harebrained, half-premises before letting your spastic anger get the best of you and abandoning your arguments mid-point.

How the hell does me admitting there are some penalties that should be called against Dallas at all affect the claim that they face a different standard than other teams?

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i feel really bad for some of the cowboys fans on this site, sometimes.
No. I feel bad for you.

See what I did there? I pity you more than you pity me, so now I'm better than you.
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Old 12-13-2009, 01:12 AM    (permalink
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Not every team has been penalized more than their opponent 78% of the time.
Fixed it for you.
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Old 12-13-2009, 01:27 AM    (permalink
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Old 12-13-2009, 01:52 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by njx9 View Post
so the cowboys have more penalties called against them than anyone else, because other teams don't get penalties called when they play the cowboys?
You need to stop thinking in binaries. You guys keep making hyperbolized strawmen and then taking each moderated point I make to absurd extremes.

Of course, you might not take what you're saying entirely seriously, but it doesn't seem like it for the most part.

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no, you initially argued that the cowboys have been more penalized by anyone for a few of the last 40+ years, and that there is an explicit refereeing bias against them. which is somewhat undermined when you admit that they commit a rather large amount of penalties and instead try to explain the difference away by saying "well they missed a holding call by the giants".
See above. I never said Dallas commits a large amount of penalties. I said nothing more than they deserve to have some penalties called on them.

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intriguing strawman, but i've never mentioned roy williams. and you WERE saying that the cowboys were called for a lot of penalties. i've gone over this above.
That's not what a strawman is. You referred to the Roy Williams example by more generically saying "you admit that they commit a rather large amount of penalties." Just because you skipped specifics doesn't mean it isn't the same argument.

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you're basically saying:

well a happens, implying a bias against the cowboys. and sure, there's a lot of b in a, but neither actually have anything to do with my argument, which is just that the giants didn't get called for holding.
This doesn't make any sense. What is the B variable? Is the A variable "bias against the Cowboys"? If so, what is the logical path you attempted to but failed to make here? Listing variables with no premise context and no conclusion isn't a logical argument.

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it's all fairly simple english, try to keep up.
Just as soon as you start speaking it.

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just... put down the thesaurus.
You needed a thesaurus to learn those words?

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point out a single argument i "abandoned", or better, look up the word. i've rather consistently suggested that you've tried to deflect the argument when it was pointed out that you were, simply, incorrect in your assumption of refereeing bias. now, you're trying to make the discussion focus on a couple of times other teams weren't flagged when you thought they should've been.
Ok, here is what you said.

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oh stop it. you complained about the cowboys getting flagged mroe than anyone. now, you want to suggest that your problem isn't that they flagged when they make obviously dirty plays, you just want to complain because every so often the refs miss a call against YOUR team, which is clearly a national ****ing emergency.
P1: You suggest that Dallas faces stricter penalty standards than other teams
P2: You suggest that you don't have a problem with Dallas getting penalties they deserve
C: You want to complain about how refs missed a call against your team, which is clearly a national ******* emergency.

Go ahead. Explain how this is an argument as opposed to a bunch of scatterbrained, nonsensical crap.

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well guess what? every single fan in the nfl can probably think of 50 examples from this season that either did, or could have substantially changed games. just none of them were silly enough to start a thread to whine about it and actually expect some sympathy. that, or this has been a fairly successful troll.
Guess what not every single fan can point out? 38 out of 49.

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1. dallas gets called for WAY more penalties than anyone else!
2. well yes. some of them are legit.
3. ok, you're right, a lot of them are.
4. but they didn't call holding on the giants and leonard davis got a foul for intentional roughness!
5. what? i wasn't talking about more penalties as an example of bias! that doesn't have anything to do with anything!
Number two implies that I argued Dallas never had a legitimate penalty called against them. Nice strawman.

I flat out never said number three. Nice strawman.

On four: So my point that the magnitude of a penalty's impact matters detracts from my other points how, exactly?

On five: Reword in English, plz. Either it's such a fantastic strawman that I can't even figure out what you constructed it out of or it doesn't make any sense.

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except the point was that i don't pit you. nice try, though.
I still pity you, though (which still makes me better than you).
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