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Old 12-14-2009, 03:14 PM    (permalink
bigbluedefense
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that brings up a good point. its hard to say which WRs are truly great vs the product of a system/qb.

I think guys like Wayne are very good WRs, but much of the reason for his great #s is bc of Manning.

Ditto for Steve Smith (Giants). Eli makes him look much better than he is. He's nothing more than a solid #2 WR, yet he has #1 WR numbers bc of Eli.


Vincent Jackson...now thats a stud. You can't cover him. Even when he's covered, he's not. Thats why I have him #4 on my list.

To be fair, the relationship between a WR and a qb is mostly mutual, but I do feel certain qbs make their cores look better than they truly are.

And in some cases, WRs make their qbs look better than they truly are (Randy Moss is the poster child for this).
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Old 12-14-2009, 03:14 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by njx9 View Post
bitter much?
I'm not bitter at all, I still like the trade we made. A more accurate statement would be, "hate the Patriots much?" to which I would reply yes, yes I do.

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Originally Posted by bigbluedefense View Post
If Welker was a #1 WR on a team, he wouldn't have half the stats he has. There are a lot of WRs better than Welker.
This man knows.
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Old 12-14-2009, 03:15 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Smooth Criminal View Post
Hines Ward has very similar numbers and no one thinks he's top ten. Those arn't the numbers of a top ten receiver. Only his attention ***** tactics keep his name in the news.
Did I say he was top ten? No. I responded to Lizard's dumb statements that Ocho's skills have deteriorated.
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Old 12-14-2009, 03:16 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by bigbluedefense View Post
that brings up a good point. its hard to say which WRs are truly great vs the product of a system/qb.

I think guys like Wayne are very good WRs, but much of the reason for his great #s is bc of Manning.

Ditto for Steve Smith (Giants). Eli makes him look much better than he is. He's nothing more than a solid #2 WR, yet he has #1 WR numbers bc of Eli.


Vincent Jackson...now thats a stud. You can't cover him. Even when he's covered, he's not. Thats why I have him #4 on my list.

To be fair, the relationship between a WR and a qb is mostly mutual, but I do feel certain qbs make their cores look better than they truly are.

And in some cases, WRs make their qbs look better than they truly are (Randy Moss is the poster child for this).
are you saying that brady is not good or the reason for the success of the Patriots??
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Old 12-14-2009, 03:16 PM    (permalink
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I have said for years that Housh was MASSIVELY overrated and that Ochocino was way better than him - absolutely absurd debate. Thankfully TJ went to Seattle to end it

Yesterday Welker ran up a ton of catches and yards on the Panthers. Why? Because no one was covering him on 80% of their passes. Give him credit for finding holes in zones, but really...he was tearing Carolina apart yesterday on one drive and they didn't even try to adjust the coverage. Meanwhile Moss looked like he was sleepwalking through the game and was still heavily covered
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Old 12-14-2009, 03:20 PM    (permalink
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are you saying that brady is not good or the reason for the success of the Patriots??
Not entirely.

The statement was moreso a knock on guys like Randall Cunningham (who led the best offense in NFL history with Moss before the Pats), Jeff George, Daunte Culpepper, Kerry Collins, and every other joke of a qb that Moss played with.


For Brady...no, but it isn't coincidence that he had the most TDs in NFL history and led the most dynamic offense in NFL history after he got Moss. Prior to Moss, Brady was never a stat demon.

Thats taking nothing away from Brady. Brady is the man.
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Old 12-14-2009, 03:21 PM    (permalink
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Vincent Jackson FTW, the only times he does not absolutely explode in a defense's face are the times he is consistently doubled and rolled to, leading to ridiculous games from Gates/Floyd/everyone.
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Old 12-14-2009, 03:22 PM    (permalink
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Brady is a great QB, but he's not an all time leader in passing touchdowns QB without Moss
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Old 12-14-2009, 03:22 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by SchizophrenicBatman View Post
Moss is a great WR, but he's not an all time leader in receiving touchdowns without Brady
Can also work this way.
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Old 12-14-2009, 03:23 PM    (permalink
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Vincent Jackson FTW, the only times he does not absolutely explode in a defense's face are the times he is consistently doubled and rolled to, leading to ridiculous games from Gates/Floyd/everyone.
He's incredible. Vincent Jackson is uncoverable. He's a TE with WR speed.

The only WRs id take over him are Moss, Fitz, and Johnson. I think he's that good.
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Old 12-14-2009, 03:26 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by bigbluedefense View Post
Not entirely.

The statement was moreso a knock on guys like Randall Cunningham (who led the best offense in NFL history with Moss before the Pats), Jeff George, Daunte Culpepper, Kerry Collins, and every other joke of a qb that Moss played with.


For Brady...no, but it isn't coincidence that he had the most TDs in NFL history and led the most dynamic offense in NFL history after he got Moss. Prior to Moss, Brady was never a stat demon.

Thats taking nothing away from Brady. Brady is the man.
Tom Brady before he had Moss and Welker was the Joe Montana to Peyton Manning's Dan Marino. Then he got them and he surpassed Manning and Marino.
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Old 12-14-2009, 03:28 PM    (permalink
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Tom Brady before he had Moss and Welker was the Joe Montana to Peyton Manning's Dan Marino. Then he got them and he surpassed Manning and Marino.
Id say he was more Roger Staubach than Joe Montana. Montana put up beastly numbers his whole career.

Brady shares his clutchness though.
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Old 12-14-2009, 03:28 PM    (permalink
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He's incredible. Vincent Jackson is uncoverable. He's a TE with WR speed.

The only WRs id take over him are Moss, Fitz, and Johnson. I think he's that good.
I agree. VJ is really an example of a project player done right: Out of Northern Colorado he was a 4.4/4.5 guy at 6'5 and 240...that's insane. But instead of being thrown to the wolves he was mentored by guys like Keenan McCardell, a supremely underrated route runner, and coached up by Hall of Famers like Charlie Joiner and James Lofton. Sure enough by the end of his 2nd year he was a force in the playoffs, and has continued ascending in his 3rd and now 4th year. Rivers helps too.
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Old 12-14-2009, 03:28 PM    (permalink
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Tom Brady before he had Moss and Welker was the Joe Montana to Peyton Manning's Dan Marino. Then he got them and he surpassed Manning and Marino.
^^^^^THIS!!!!!!!

I missed you Shiver.
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Old 12-14-2009, 03:31 PM    (permalink
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I agree. VJ is really an example of a project player done right: Out of Northern Colorado he was a 4.4/4.5 guy at 6'5 and 240...that's insane. But instead of being thrown to the wolves he was mentored by guys like Keenan McCardell, a supremely underrated route runner, and coached up by Hall of Famers like Charlie Joiner and James Lofton. Sure enough by the end of his 2nd year he was a force in the playoffs, and has continued ascending in his 3rd and now 4th year. Rivers helps too.
i can only hope that my boy Ramses Barden can one day be like Vincent Jackson.

not that we need him, i think Nicks is going to be a monster. But if Barden can pan out, that would be insane.
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Old 12-14-2009, 03:31 PM    (permalink
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Can also work this way.
He got way closer with Daunte Culpepper than Brady ever did otherwise
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Old 12-14-2009, 03:32 PM    (permalink
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He got way closer with Daunte Culpepper than Brady ever did otherwise
Well, that's good, since we know that Brady had a bunch of All-Pro caliber wideouts in his entire career.
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Old 12-14-2009, 03:36 PM    (permalink
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i can only hope that my boy Ramses Barden can one day be like Vincent Jackson.

not that we need him, i think Nicks is going to be a monster. But if Barden can pan out, that would be insane.
haha Pharoah needs to be activated on game day! There are matchups out there that he could win in his sleep.
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Old 12-14-2009, 03:38 PM    (permalink
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Well, that's good, since we know that Brady had a bunch of All-Pro caliber wideouts in his entire career.
Dude he had a SB MVP!
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Old 12-14-2009, 03:39 PM    (permalink
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haha Pharoah needs to be activated on game day! There are matchups out there that he could win in his sleep.
they want to activate him, but he's been crappy on special teams so they don't.

supposedly he has some work to do. i think he might make an impact next year, but this year is a lost cause.

realistically, i think he's a 3 year project before we start seeing any production from him.
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Old 12-14-2009, 03:40 PM    (permalink
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Dude he had a SB MVP!
So did Dexter Jackson...just sayin
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Old 12-14-2009, 03:42 PM    (permalink
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I mean, I think Moss IS overrated some. You can't just ignore the fact that anytime the guy is playing with a QB that can't throw bombs to him he gives up. But when he has that guy - he's one of the greatest ever. Better as a WR than Brady is as a QB.

I don't think if I were making a list I'd put Moss #1. My "Top 10" list would be if I were making a team who would I take first. And unless I have top ~12 QB Moss is going to peace out on me.

The problem is the people who say Welker is better than him.
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Old 12-14-2009, 03:42 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by *** Ork Wang View Post
Dude he had a SB MVP!
Brady was no slouch before Moss, he was pretty much a shoe-in for 4,000 yards and 28 touchdowns; even with David Givens, Troy Brown, Deion Branch, Reche Caldwell and Jabar Gaffney.
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Old 12-14-2009, 03:43 PM    (permalink
CC.SD
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Originally Posted by bigbluedefense View Post
they want to activate him, but he's been crappy on special teams so they don't.

supposedly he has some work to do. i think he might make an impact next year, but this year is a lost cause.

realistically, i think he's a 3 year project before we start seeing any production from him.
I will send him a note telling him to resurrect his tackling skills. 3 years is the likeliest scenario but honestly in the red zone he's such an obvious mismatch that I could see him blowing people away next year. Coming out of Cal State SLO, not the easiest adjustment.
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Old 12-14-2009, 03:44 PM    (permalink
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Dude he had a SB MVP!
Super Bowl MVP means you had one great game. It doesn't make you an elite player, unless you think Desmond Howard was an elite NFL WR.
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