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Old 12-22-2009, 08:21 AM    (permalink
fear the elf
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The Challenge, I guess. He has said, that he did very carefully pick his last (!) employment in the football world. Cleveland gave him basically the highest possible job in an organisation that needs rebuilding. So he's in for one last challenge as a head of football operations ( Or 'Czar' or VP or whatever).

Also: 50 Million $.
I think they mean, why do we want Holmgren to be our GM, since he didn't do a great job in that role with Seattle.

I think it's mostly because we haven't had anyone "credible" in any phase of management in a decade. As far as I know, he isn't GM either. He may take on those responsibilities, but for now, as far as I've heard is title is President, and I don't think he's decided if he will also act as GM or bring in someone else that he likes.
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Old 12-22-2009, 10:55 AM    (permalink
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I think they mean, why do we want Holmgren to be our GM, since he didn't do a great job in that role with Seattle.

I think it's mostly because we haven't had anyone "credible" in any phase of management in a decade. As far as I know, he isn't GM either. He may take on those responsibilities, but for now, as far as I've heard is title is President, and I don't think he's decided if he will also act as GM or bring in someone else that he likes.
I can't recall if Parcells was ever a real GM before or not, but he knows how the football world worked and filled the FO and coaching staff with "his guys." And it's worked so far in Miami. Worst to first last year, and they still have a hope for the playoffs this year even after losing their starting QB and primary RB.

I think Holmgren will find a guy he wants to be GM, find guys he wants to fill out the staff, and then let them work, simply being a "final say" kind of guy.
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Old 12-22-2009, 02:04 PM    (permalink
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Charlie Weis to OC in Cleveland? Lombardi thinks so...

Also talks about Lombardi's opinion on if Holmgren will keep Mangini. I wasn't on the Mangini bandwagon in the beginning however I've gotten on board as of lately. For all the negative press that the media juggernauts put out like the fine over the water bottle, the James Davis injury or the union investigating Mangini's practices and even the complaints were all misinterpreted and never retracted by said juggernauts.

We're on a two game winning streak (defending Super Bowl champions and KC), almost beat the Lions (Mangini's timeout was a WTF moment though) and was very competitive against the Chargers. This is coming with an obvious talent differential not in our favor and with a lot of injuries.

It's obvious that with the way the team is playing that players are buying into Mangini's system and players are even coming out in support of the coach to be retained including the new mayor of the city Josh Cribbs.
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Old 12-22-2009, 02:25 PM    (permalink
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I don't know what I think about the Mangini situation anymore. As a lot of media outlets have mentioned, Holmgren knows the WCO and 4-3 systems and Mangini doesn't run those, so I'm not sure how well the two working together would work. We'll see what happens. I'm happy Holmgren is here though.
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Old 12-22-2009, 02:39 PM    (permalink
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give mangini another year at least. hire weiss as OC. give quinn a chance (he's only started 12 games in his career hasn't he?) with a real right tackle and some upgraded WRs/TEs to throw to. If we fail with those changes then Holmgren can rip it apart and rebuild it. That's how I'd do it.
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Old 12-22-2009, 03:15 PM    (permalink
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If Charlie Weiss is hired as OC what is the Over/Under on combined GM/Coach/OC weight? The line starts at 1000 lbs.
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Old 12-22-2009, 03:17 PM    (permalink
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If Charlie Weiss is hired as OC what is the Over/Under on combined GM/Coach/OC weight? The line starts at 1000 lbs.
the over/under is ted washington
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Old 12-22-2009, 03:27 PM    (permalink
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you can throw in Rob Ryan too.
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Old 12-22-2009, 04:03 PM    (permalink
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A big RUMOR that I've been seeing at other boards says Randy Mueller may be Holmgren's choice for GM.
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Old 12-22-2009, 07:26 PM    (permalink
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A big RUMOR that I've been seeing at other boards says Randy Mueller may be Holmgren's choice for GM.
Holmgren's had a good run here, but it's definitely time to go in another direction...
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Old 12-22-2009, 07:31 PM    (permalink
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Charlie Casserly should get another shot somewhere. He was fired for passing on Bush basically and has been nothing but vindicated.

Or Holmgren can actually make his own draft picks as the new boss, the lazy bum.
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Old 12-22-2009, 07:56 PM    (permalink
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Charlie Casserly should get another shot somewhere. He was fired for passing on Bush basically and has been nothing but vindicated.

Or Holmgren can actually make his own draft picks as the new boss, the lazy bum.
Actually wasn't it announced that he was going stepping down even before the 2006 draft occured because he wanted to persure a job in the NFL front office? I don't mean that he stepped down before the draft, rather that it was annonced before hand.
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Old 12-22-2009, 07:59 PM    (permalink
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Actually wasn't it announced that he was going stepping down even before the 2006 draft occured because he wanted to persure a job in the NFL front office? I don't mean that he stepped down before the draft, rather that it was annonced before hand.
I thiiiink it was shortly after but not 100%. In any case they knew Bush wouldn't be the pick, they even refused to let him take a pic near a Texans sign during some workout or another. Whether it was for signability reasons or not it definitely appeared to the public like Casserly was fed to the wolves after that pick.
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Old 12-22-2009, 08:12 PM    (permalink
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I thiiiink it was shortly after but not 100%. In any case they knew Bush wouldn't be the pick, they even refused to let him take a pic near a Texans sign during some workout or another. Whether it was for signability reasons or not it definitely appeared to the public like Casserly was fed to the wolves after that pick.
I was always under the impression that it was known he was going to step down after that draft. Either way I was a huge Mario Williams fan, as I wanted the Packers to take him at #5, so Casserly definetly went out on a good note.
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Old 12-23-2009, 08:18 AM    (permalink
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I was always under the impression that it was known he was going to step down after that draft. Either way I was a huge Mario Williams fan, as I wanted the Packers to take him at #5, so Casserly definetly went out on a good note.
For some reason, I thought I remembered hearing that he was on his way out, but he was sticking around to make the pick and take the heat for the franchise, since everyone else and their mother wanted Bush.
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Old 12-23-2009, 10:56 AM    (permalink
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I hope they retain Eric and give him a shot at being a coach. Agreed with whoever said him getting fired is pretty much the kiss of death to his coaching career in the NFL, at least this decade.

Weis going to them would be crazy for their offense. Quinn might actually turn into something.
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Old 12-23-2009, 11:23 AM    (permalink
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give mangini another year at least. hire weiss as OC. give quinn a chance (he's only started 12 games in his career hasn't he?) with a real right tackle and some upgraded WRs/TEs to throw to. If we fail with those changes then Holmgren can rip it apart and rebuild it. That's how I'd do it.
Unfortunately, Holmgren is a 4-3, WCO guy. Mangini isn't and I don't believe the 2 cannot co exist together. I agree that Mangini deserves another year but I doubt he will get it from Holmgren if Holmgren has the authority to fire him.
Holmgren needs his people in charge from top to bottom of the organization, what good is bringing in his people who know the 4-3 and WCO if the team is running different systems. This is just typical Lerner fumbling and forces the team to change HC's whether they like it or not.
As for Quinn, he is on even shakier ground if Holmgren brings in a new HC. A WCO QB must complete a very high % of his passes for the WCO to work and so far that has been a huge weakness of Quinn in the team's current run.
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Old 12-23-2009, 11:26 AM    (permalink
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For some reason, I thought I remembered hearing that he was on his way out, but he was sticking around to make the pick and take the heat for the franchise, since everyone else and their mother wanted Bush.
He was on his way out but was allowed to make the final pick before leaving.
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Old 12-23-2009, 11:30 AM    (permalink
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Mangini deserves at least one more year. All the complaints about him, you gotta remember, he's changing the culture in Cleveland. That team was soft, he's toughening it up.

Coughlin had to do the same thing to the Giants. When he first came here everyone said he was a hardass. But it was necessary, bc the team was soft and used to easy practices and it showed on the field.

Mangini is weeding out the garbage on his team, developing a team concept, and bringing toughness to the team. It takes time to do that. He's really not as bad of a coach as ppl think.

He got rid of Edwards and Winslow bc he needed to get rid of the attitudes to fix the culture. He drafted a bunch of quality blue collar guys in the draft that are very good at their job, and also have that blue collar mentality.

He's doing all the right things. The only real knock I have on him is his qb carousel. He did the same thing in NY and I think it hurts his team. But he's doing the right things.

Give him time to put more talent on that team, and he'll improve it.

Also, he does overcoach at times. He's guilty of that too. But he's not as bad as ppl think. Overall, he's a pretty darn good coach.

Even with all his issues in New York, he had the Jets at 8-3 before Favre's arm fell off. So he can't be that bad.
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Old 12-23-2009, 11:31 AM    (permalink
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well there are at least 3 factors that might be in Mangini's favor here.

-Holmgren has said he doesn't think it's fair to fire a coach after one season, and being a former head coach himself he might be sympathetic to mangini's situation.

-Mangini has the team playing hard for him and has just won 2 games in a row,
including a win over Pittsburgh. He very well could beat the crappy Raiders at home next week making it three in a row. However improbable, if he beats Jacksonville at home also, that would mean he finished the season winning the last 4 games. Hard to justify firing a guy riding a 4 game winning streak and showing signs of improving a team he just stripped down to rebuild.

-However bad holmgren may want to hire his own guy as HC who runs a west coast offense (so he can go ahead and get WCO and 4-3 defensive personnel in as soon as he can), what if he can't hire "his guy" as HC (Gruden or whoever)? Would he settle for a guy he doesn't want as badly or wait another year with Mangini and then get "his guy?" green bay newspaper suggests maybe Holmgren himself would coach the Browns in this situation for just a year or so.

that said, it is still hard to argue that Holmgren is gonna want his own people on the staff who run a WCO and are offensive minded - two traits Mangini does not posess. Unless he believes that Mangini is capable of being our HC for a long period he might as well hire a new coach and start getting new players in as soon as he can. Both scenarios make sense.
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Old 12-23-2009, 11:37 AM    (permalink
keylime_5
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Originally Posted by bigbluedefense View Post
Mangini deserves at least one more year. All the complaints about him, you gotta remember, he's changing the culture in Cleveland. That team was soft, he's toughening it up.

Coughlin had to do the same thing to the Giants. When he first came here everyone said he was a hardass. But it was necessary, bc the team was soft and used to easy practices and it showed on the field.

Mangini is weeding out the garbage on his team, developing a team concept, and bringing toughness to the team. It takes time to do that. He's really not as bad of a coach as ppl think.

He got rid of Edwards and Winslow bc he needed to get rid of the attitudes to fix the culture. He drafted a bunch of quality blue collar guys in the draft that are very good at their job, and also have that blue collar mentality.

He's doing all the right things. The only real knock I have on him is his qb carousel. He did the same thing in NY and I think it hurts his team. But he's doing the right things.

Give him time to put more talent on that team, and he'll improve it.

Also, he does overcoach at times. He's guilty of that too. But he's not as bad as ppl think. Overall, he's a pretty darn good coach.

Even with all his issues in New York, he had the Jets at 8-3 before Favre's arm fell off. So he can't be that bad.
this is totally true. as the talent gets better, so will the browns record with mangini. he has the blueprint that will work if he can get good players. the trouble might be finding a good QB, but that is the folly of any bad team. Give the guy another year and see what kind of improvement is made.
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Old 12-23-2009, 11:48 AM    (permalink
cvv84
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Holmgren was brought in for a reason - and its not to be sympathetic to Mangini. He's going to bring in his own guys on the field and on the sideline.

Hell the Browns can pay me millions to feel sorry for Mangini. I'll take it no questions asked. But if you want to win you have start over, yet again.
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Old 12-23-2009, 12:17 PM    (permalink
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Alright guys, I'M FED UP WITH THIS MIKE HOLMGREN BS!! HEAR ME? BS!!!

How many games has the guy won since we've hired him? ZERO. Count'em. I will REFUSE to inveset any more money in this joke of an organsization as long as a FORMER HIGH SHOOL COACH runs the show.

Maybe SLo Lerner will wise up, swallow the bitter pill and pay out Holmgren. The sollution is that easy. Just hire a Hall of Fame coach off the street, let him draft a future hall of fame QB. Fix the defense and we have a contender as soon as next season. WE THE CLEVELAND FANS DESERVE A WINNER. AND MIKE HOLMGREN HASN'T WON A SINGLE GAME IN CLEVELAND. REBUILDING MY ASS, WE HAD A PLAYOFF CONTENDER AT HAND AND HE RUINED IT.

Randy Lerner is an idiot for hiring a HS COACH!!! I repeat: HIGH SCHOOL COACH! Can't he see that the fans want to WIN?

Everybody, please stop wasting money on this joke of an organization. And Mr. Lerner: please initiate the steps I mentioned or SELL THE TEAM!

GO BROWNS!
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Old 12-23-2009, 12:34 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by cvv84 View Post
Holmgren was brought in for a reason - and its not to be sympathetic to Mangini. He's going to bring in his own guys on the field and on the sideline.

Hell the Browns can pay me millions to feel sorry for Mangini. I'll take it no questions asked. But if you want to win you have start over, yet again.
I totally agree. I don't think people realize how hard it would be to have Holmgren making all the decisions for a HC who runs a totally different system from his own. You cannot not have an organization where all the people who Holmgren hires are 4-3, WCO personnel and expect them to find talent for Mangini's systems. They cannot co exist. better to make the change over now before it blows up in their faces.
Lerner should have hired a 3-4 guy to run his organization and now the fans and Mangini must pay the price once again by starting over. Everybody has to be on the same page for a franchise to be successful, you cannot have people going in different directions and expect real success down the road.
I was in full favour of giving Mangini more time before this hire but now I think he has to go if we want long term success.
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Old 12-23-2009, 12:37 PM    (permalink
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prospects of our D-Line if we run a 4-3 look good. Rogers and Williams at DT and Roth at DE. If we draft Derrick Morgan that's a pretty good front four. Linebackers would need a makeover though....Jackson would be a good WLB and Wimbley can do what Orakpo does in Washington as a SLB/nickel DE, but guys like Bowens, Veikune, Trusnik, Hall, and Benard would have no place in a 4-3. [/getting ahead of self]
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