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Old 04-07-2011, 01:45 AM    (permalink
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I am just completely fascinated by Leonardo Da Vinci. Not just the brilliance of his artwork but the sheer width of his expertise on so many different subjects. One of the most, if not the most brilliant man of all time.
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Old 04-07-2011, 03:00 AM    (permalink
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Listening to Dan Carlin's shows on the fall of the Roman Republic has gotten me interested in learning more about Rome. One thing that's really interesting is ancient Rome's footprint on Christianity. You can see how the Pontifex Maximus has evolved into the Pope. An office set up thousands of years ago by a Roman king basically still exists today. I don't think it's known for sure that the office of Pontifex Maximus was started by a king, but that's a reasonable theory, I believe.

Anyway, history is cool. If I was rich I might go back to school to learn more history.
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Old 07-23-2011, 09:03 PM    (permalink
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History is fun! Also, i wanna hear bf_51 pwn some noobs. go!

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how is saying "well the 2nd bomb was dropped, clearly shows that it was necessary to stop them" an argument for the case CJ stated? While the statement that the 2nd bomb was necessary is debatable and historically not proven to be either right or wrong, your sentence added nothing to the discussion.
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Old 07-23-2011, 09:25 PM    (permalink
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pwn some noobs? **** that, i'm a history major.
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Old 07-23-2011, 09:35 PM    (permalink
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I've been continuing to listen to podcasts on the history of Ancient Rome. Amazing stuff. Hollywood should make more movies based on Ancient Roman people and events. There are so many stories that most people don't know about.
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Old 07-23-2011, 09:38 PM    (permalink
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pwn some noobs? **** that, i'm a history major.
Next to someone with at the very least ONE PhD, i'd say you're a noob, yes.
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Old 07-23-2011, 09:41 PM    (permalink
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pwn some noobs? **** that, i'm a history major.
I love it, and by the way, I can point to historical documents that support my posts.
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Old 07-23-2011, 11:22 PM    (permalink
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I like scotty. No pwning intended.
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Old 07-23-2011, 11:33 PM    (permalink
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Also, having historical documents really doesn't mean much depending on who the source is. American politicians shaped the way that the debate was framed because they had a specific agenda. It's like reading the memoirs of Genghis Khan to find out that he wasn't such a bad guy.

There's a good article specifically about Henry Stimson and the "Enola ***" controversy. "Hiroshima as politics and history." The Journal of American History, Vol. 82, No.3, Dec., 1995.

The overwhelming number of professional historians reject the argument that you're putting forward. I know what I'm talking about here.
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Old 07-23-2011, 11:40 PM    (permalink
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I like scotty. No pwning intended.
I like you too and fully respect your insight and opinions on damn near everything. In this one instance we may respectfully agree to disagree, and I admit I may also be wrong or not fully know of all the details. As much as history is perceived as factual and names and dates, there's so much analyzing and interpreting events. Gotta love it
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Old 07-24-2011, 12:14 AM    (permalink
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Also, having historical documents really doesn't mean much depending on who the source is. American politicians shaped the way that the debate was framed because they had a specific agenda. It's like reading the memoirs of Genghis Khan to find out that he wasn't such a bad guy.

There's a good article specifically about Henry Stimson and the "Enola ***" controversy. "Hiroshima as politics and history." The Journal of American History, Vol. 82, No.3, Dec., 1995.

The overwhelming number of professional historians reject the argument that you're putting forward. I know what I'm talking about here.
Really, because the documents I refer to are
a) the letters written by the Japanese Minister of Defense and the Emperor saying that they would not surrender unless certain conditions were met. Conditions that never would be met and would have drawn Russia into war with Japan as well. These letters were written the day after the Hiroshima bomb was dropped.

b) propaganda from the Japanese Ministry written to citizens saying that the explosion was certainly not "Atomic" in nature and may have not been a bomb at all. They initially planned on denying the entire bombing itself.

The second bombing was dropped on Nagasaki because of its naval importance. It is well documented that Hirohito later admitted they were worried about a third bomb that would be dropped on Tokyo and Hirohito changed the only condition to be Japan remain a sovereign nation with the Emperor as its ruler. As we both know, there was, however, a multinational occupation after the war was over.

Now, if you recall, I agreed with your point that certain people post a large number of comments without thinking. Nor am I debating the moral implications of the use of the two bombings, however what is moral about killing period.

What I argue is that perhaps there are a few of us here who do know a bit about history and that you are not the end all and be all on the topic, and I will stand by my opinion that the bombings, where horrific, ended the war quicker and with fewer net fatalities.
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Old 07-24-2011, 12:22 AM    (permalink
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The emperor was a public stooge and they were a propaganda state. There are also many diplomatic documents showing that they were not only preparing, but asking for a diplomatic end to the war.

There was a strategic point, sure, but most historians agree that the two primary reasons for using the bomb were to scare the Russians and to justify all of the time and money spent on the Manhattan project. This is also represented in the documents, particularly the point on the Soviets, which they mentioned extensively.

You are obviously entitled to your opinion. I'm just telling you that the vast majority of people who study this for a living would strongly disagree with you. There are some who deny global warming, but actual scientists support its existence overwhelmingly. I understand that there are many who would not look at science and history as analogous in this regard, but it is a difference between professionals and non-professionals nonetheless.
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Old 07-24-2011, 12:31 AM    (permalink
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You are obviously entitled to your opinion. I'm just telling you that the vast majority of people who study this for a living would strongly disagree with you.
On what points? I never said that the use of the weapon wasn't a show for the Russians, but none of the professionals who I have spoken with or taken classes from have ever disagreed that the bombing ended the war quicker and most likely resulted in fewer overall deaths.

Furthermore, many of the people who "do this for a living" would likely list just as many differences as similarities between 9/11 and the bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
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Old 07-24-2011, 12:46 AM    (permalink
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Tons of differences between 9/11 and Hiroshima, I agree. The biggest being that one was committed by an officially sanctioned polity and the other was not. Humans have always found state violence far more acceptable, for whatever reason, particularly when its against ones own people.
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Old 07-24-2011, 02:02 AM    (permalink
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I don't see anything wrong with the discussion going on here just don't steer it towards anything political. Thank you, gents.
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Old 07-24-2011, 01:46 PM    (permalink
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Diab, thank you for your endorsement of our discussion. BF51 and I are both intelligent enough to keep this on topic and I am sure we respect each other enough not to let this turn into something that will get the thread locked.
I will admit, my strongest rationale for engaging in the debate at all was this statement-

Quote:
No offense, but that's because you don't know any of the history.

Also, 9/11 killed about 3,000 people. Hiroshima and Nagasaki killed about 200,000 plus the long-term effects of radiation poisoning.

So.....yeah.
It is apparent that some of of know a reasonable if not considerable amount of the history. I'll be rather upfront about the fact that I did take some offense to the response to Scotty. Where as I am not unaware of your position, it has come from, in my experience, a sub-group that I can only define in terms that would get me in trouble here. I believe that on the matter of was it the right or wrong action to take by the U.S. we could debate for quite sometime and never be any closer than when we first started. But to assume that other know nothing on a particular subject is foolish, and I feel you of all people should know that - especially when considering the work you have done in your field, whatever specialized area that may be.
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Old 07-24-2011, 01:59 PM    (permalink
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I don't argue with doctors about my medical condition, I don't argue with auto mechanics when they fix my car.

Perhaps it was too confrontational (it would have been more polite and accurate to say "enough" instead of "any"), and I had forgotten that scotty is a history major, but the distinction between professionals and non-professionals exists in any field.

If there was something wrong with my computer, and someone said "I build and fix computers for a living", I wouldn't continue to argue with him. I would assume that his access within a field and multiple years of training probably make him privy to a lot more information than I could ever hope to acquire. That's how you learn things as a person.

Because we like to think of history as being something that is available to all of us, that leads to the belief that any particular opinion about the past is just as valid as any other.
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Old 07-24-2011, 02:06 PM    (permalink
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But that is not what you did. You dismissed anyone who had a difference of opinion based on your body of work. I won't deny that you are well versed in the area we are in discussion over, but you can't deny that a fair number of academics, some even like yourself, support the argument I made as well. Where it may not be the most commonly supported viewpoint, it is a valid one none the less.
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Old 07-24-2011, 02:10 PM    (permalink
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I don't see anything wrong with the discussion going on here just don't steer it towards anything political. Thank you, gents.
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Old 09-21-2012, 10:22 PM    (permalink
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wanna bump this bad boy up. I'm in my seminar now, with a large research paper that's 80% of our grade. So, the class is American intervention overseas and I was thinking something along the lines of the American pride (hubris if you will) of the presidents for not wanting to be the president who lost the Vietnam war. It's, I think, an interesting topic and I could research more about vietnam (which sadly is RARELY taught unless you take a specific course on it, really).

thoughts, fellow history buffs/nerds?
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Old 09-21-2012, 10:26 PM    (permalink
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wanna bump this bad boy up. I'm in my seminar now, with a large research paper that's 80% of our grade. So, the class is American intervention overseas and I was thinking something along the lines of the American pride (hubris if you will) of the presidents for not wanting to be the president who lost the Vietnam war. It's, I think, an interesting topic and I could research more about vietnam (which sadly is RARELY taught unless you take a specific course on it, really).

thoughts, fellow history buffs/nerds?
I wrote a paper on how America's use of unmanned aircraft in countries like Pakistan is illegal under international law and violates Pakistan's sovereignty. It got a good mark I think. Although, might be a bit recent for your class.
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Old 09-21-2012, 10:27 PM    (permalink
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Does it have to be during a certain time period?
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Old 09-21-2012, 10:40 PM    (permalink
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Does it have to be during a certain time period?
nope, one kid's writing on Jefferson's handling of the Barbary pirates. Any ideas are appreciated. Just trying to brainstorm. If I'm writing a big ass research paper, i want it to be on something i like and can research and write easily and with excitement
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Old 09-21-2012, 10:42 PM    (permalink
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nope, one kid's writing on Jefferson's handling of the Barbary pirates. Any ideas are appreciated. Just trying to brainstorm. If I'm writing a big ass research paper, i want it to be on something i like and can research and write easily and with excitement
Can you go "opposite" and detail America staying out of Europe/Asia? Washington Farewell, Monroe Doctrine, FDR first term and so on? It's out the box and can get you a lot of points.
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Old 09-21-2012, 10:46 PM    (permalink
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Can you go "opposite" and detail America staying out of Europe/Asia? Washington Farewell, Monroe Doctrine, FDR first term and so on? It's out the box and can get you a lot of points.
hmmm, I think I might. That may be an awesome/interesting point. Washington farewell would be awesome. Can analyze it saying maybe America would've been better off with an isolationist policy. Interesting. I'll have to talk to my prof about it
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