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Old 04-10-2012, 01:06 PM    (permalink
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It's really rather interesting, particularly when determining one's moral or ethical philosophy. I'm intrigued by the application of his ideas in regard to such issues as the banality of evil and moral luck. I feel that to some degree, particularly in the case of moral luck, this stance becomes problematic in application. While it's theoretically ideal to live one's life this way and thus appropriate when discussing existentialism, I'm not sure it can be seen through in practice.
I wrote my final paper in existentialism on that very topic defending an ethics/creating an ethics that works within an existential system. It really depends on what kind of ethical system you take up is where this becomes problematic. I tend to lean with Foot's critique of Kant that there is no determination to do anything and that makes it all the more good in itself, good for the sake of good.
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Old 05-16-2012, 11:42 PM    (permalink
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We were discussing this in my philosophy class today and wasn't sure where else to post it.

What if there was a race much more intelligent than humans; would it be ethnically right for them to use us for food just like humans use animals for food?
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Old 05-16-2012, 11:45 PM    (permalink
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Of course. If we justify ourselves feeding off of other animals as being the dominant species in the food chain, we can't really ***** if a species more intelligent than us feeds on our kind as well. If we lose our spot on top of the chain we just have to adapt, no sense at that point arguing over whether it is ethical haha.
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Old 05-16-2012, 11:46 PM    (permalink
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We were discussing this in my philosophy class today and wasn't sure where else to post it.

What if there was a race much more intelligent than humans; would it be ethnically right for them to use us for food just like humans use animals for food?
It would depend on context. From our viewpoint, it'd certainly not be ethical, but from their viewpoint it would be. I feel like what we consider to be ethical universals are only universal in that most humans are essentially equal. We would be inferior to this race, and they would have their own ethics.
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Old 05-16-2012, 11:49 PM    (permalink
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It would be bias from both sides, but since we have seemed to adopt a justification for eating lesser intelligent and or capable animals to satisfy our own ethical system we can't ***** if something comes along and bumps us off our thrown using our own ethics on the matter. It would be hypocritical.
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Old 05-17-2012, 12:16 AM    (permalink
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It would be bias from both sides, but since we have seemed to adopt a justification for eating lesser intelligent and or capable animals to satisfy our own ethical system we can't ***** if something comes along and bumps us off our thrown using our own ethics on the matter. It would be hypocritical.
I don't think hypocrisy is unethical, though. It seems uncontroversial to make the claim that eating other humans is universally unethical. Eating lesser animals is not consider universally wrong. As beings that are capable of having rational discourse regarding ethics, we would be seemingly justified in making the claim that it is unethical for more advanced beings to eat us.
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Old 05-17-2012, 12:26 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by hawkeye123 View Post
We were discussing this in my philosophy class today and wasn't sure where else to post it.

What if there was a race much more intelligent than humans; would it be ethnically right for them to use us for food just like humans use animals for food?
Well it depends on the frame of reference. But to put it another way. We don't eat monkey's in the industrial world nor do we eat dolphin those two are the next two on the intelligence hierarchy. So I would imagine that this superior animal (if it had human ethics) would likely feel the same way.
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oh please. as if canadians even know what beer is.
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Old 05-17-2012, 12:52 AM    (permalink
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Well it depends on the frame of reference. But to put it another way. We don't eat monkey's in the industrial world nor do we eat dolphin those two are the next two on the intelligence hierarchy. So I would imagine that this superior animal (if it had human ethics) would likely feel the same way.
I don't think not eating monkeys or dolphins is related to their intelligence, rather a historic inefficiency in harvesting them.
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Old 05-17-2012, 01:01 AM    (permalink
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I don't think not eating monkeys or dolphins is related to their intelligence, rather a historic inefficiency in harvesting them.
Well I would say that for monkeys but Dolphins are just as easy as Tuna.
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oh please. as if canadians even know what beer is.
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Old 05-17-2012, 01:04 AM    (permalink
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Well I would say that for monkeys but Dolphins are just as easy as Tuna.
They're far less numerous and travel in smaller groups, and I'm not sure of much meat they yield(when compared to the work it takes to catch them). Likely very inefficient to catch, and thus no opportunity to become a staple of any diet or people.
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Old 05-17-2012, 01:12 AM    (permalink
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They're far less numerous and travel in smaller groups, and I'm not sure of much meat they yield(when compared to the work it takes to catch them). Likely very inefficient to catch, and thus no opportunity to become a staple of any diet or people.
Meh fair enough. But current day many if not most people buy dolphin free tuna for the moral objection to eating dolphin.
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oh please. as if canadians even know what beer is.
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Old 05-17-2012, 01:58 AM    (permalink
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I think that people object to killing/eating Dolphins for the same reasons they object to killing dogs or cats: we like them, because they entertain us. Crows are one of the more intelligent species on the planet, seem to be self aware, and have demonstrated the ability to use tools in a novel fashion. If you kill one, though, nobody cares.

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Old 05-17-2012, 07:45 AM    (permalink
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Question: Can we effectively communicate with this species?
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Old 05-17-2012, 07:56 AM    (permalink
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I think that people object to killing/eating Dolphins for the same reasons they object to killing dogs or cats: we like them, because they entertain us. Crows are one of the more intelligent species on the planet, seem to be self aware, and have demonstrated the ability to use tools in a novel fashion. If you kill one, though, nobody cares.
Isn't it just because Dolphins are somewhat endangered?
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Old 05-17-2012, 08:07 AM    (permalink
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Isn't it just because Dolphins are somewhat endangered?
Many fish are endangered (I know dolphin is a mammal) but we still eat them.
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Old 05-17-2012, 09:03 AM    (permalink
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Question: Can we effectively communicate with this species?
If they are more intelligent then we are I'm going to assume that at some basic level we could communicate with them.

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I don't think hypocrisy is unethical, though. It seems uncontroversial to make the claim that eating other humans is universally unethical. Eating lesser animals is not consider universally wrong. As beings that are capable of having rational discourse regarding ethics, we would be seemingly justified in making the claim that it is unethical for more advanced beings to eat us.
But that is exactly my point, we rationalize that by claiming that those species are just of lesser intelligence than we are and that somehow makes it more ethical for us to consume them in the manner we do. If these higher beings of intellect take the same stance I just don't see how we could justify it being unethical seeing that we use the same type of reasoning to justify our way of eating off lesser intelligent animals. I mean there are even philosophers and psychologists who would argue that animals have a sense of ethics as well (not that I buy that), every creature is going to have an objection with its own kind being hunted and killed. I just dont think that we have any basis to say that since we are at least more intellectual and have a relative system of ethics to follow regarding what we eat we can say it is unethical for higher beings to eat us. The only beings it matters to that we can think ethically are ourselves, these other beings would have their own set of ethics which being a hypothetical situation we cant really assume what it is but if they are eating us than I'd assume that their ethical theory would justify that behavior. I just can't even buy the whole argument that since we can rationalize and have discourse on ethics that we somehow have proven ourselves ethically wrong to eat. Why would they care in the least bit that we are capable of such things, when we ourselves pretty much rationalize the killing of any species by claiming they are just not as intelligent as we are? I'm going to assume they would take the same stance.

And hypocrisy may not be unethical, but it is certainly unsound logic.
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Jesse realizing Walt was Santa Claus could really shake things up.

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Old 05-17-2012, 10:02 AM    (permalink
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speaking of eating animals.. this is a really disgusting video. don't watch if you're eating something.



totally relevant to philosophy.
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Old 05-17-2012, 10:11 AM    (permalink
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speaking of eating animals.. this is a really disgusting video. don't watch if you're eating something.



totally relevant to philosophy.
OK so I was 100% cool with that until the ******* thing started moving on the plate.
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oh please. as if canadians even know what beer is.
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Old 05-17-2012, 10:24 AM    (permalink
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If they are more intelligent then we are I'm going to assume that at some basic level we could communicate with them.

The reason I ask is, what would you do if a pig stopped while being chased and pleaded to you, in perfect English no less, that your actions were unethical. Would that make you more or less inclined to turn him into bacon?
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Old 05-17-2012, 11:11 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by CJSchneider View Post
The reason I ask is, what would you do if a pig stopped while being chased and pleaded to you, in perfect English no less, that your actions were unethical. Would that make you more or less inclined to turn him into bacon?
I mean they basically do try to communicate when they are squealing as you chase them, or a dog whimpering when you beat it. I mean whose to say we would be intelligent enough to speak their language, our language could sound like a dog barking to them. Again for us we would say it was unethical because we are being eaten, but I would bet that they would rationalize it the same way we do when we eat lesser prey and for us to turn around and be upset over using the same logic we use but only because were the ones being eaten is just unsound in my opinion. I just would take the side that it would be perfectly acceptable for them to eat us if theyre using the same logic we use when it comes to how we eat other species. I'm not a fan of you can have your cake and eat it to, which is what it feels like when we rationalize our behavior with other creatures one way but don't uphold it if another species comes along and uses it against ourselves.
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Old 05-17-2012, 11:15 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Jvig43 View Post
I mean they basically do try to communicate when they are squealing as you chase them, or a dog whimpering when you beat it. I mean whose to say we would be intelligent enough to speak their language, our language could sound like a dog barking to them. Again for us we would say it was unethical because we are being eaten, but I would bet that they would rationalize it the same way we do when we eat lesser prey and for us to turn around and be upset over using the same logic we use but only because were the ones being eaten is just unsound in my opinion. I just would take the side that it would be perfectly acceptable for them to eat us if theyre using the same logic we use when it comes to how we eat other species. I'm not a fan of you can have your cake and eat it to, which is what it feels like when we rationalize our behavior with other creatures one way but don't uphold it if another species comes along and uses it against ourselves.
But that is why I asked could we effectively communicate and indicated the pig could speak in your language. Of course any animal we ethically eat cries out in fear as the slaughter process brings them closer to being a meal. Alas, if it was in our language, would that change anything?
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Old 05-17-2012, 11:20 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by CJSchneider View Post
But that is why I asked could we effectively communicate and indicated the pig could speak in your language. Of course any animal we ethically eat cries out in fear as the slaughter process brings them closer to being a meal. Alas, if it was in our language, would that change anything?
If cows, fish, pigs, and chickens could speak English, I definitely wouldn't eat them.
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Old 05-17-2012, 11:26 AM    (permalink
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If cows, fish, pigs, and chickens could speak English, I definitely wouldn't eat them.
OK, but now what if you spoke their language?

Personally, I feel communication is almost a moot point. If you feel like you've deemed them a lesser species already, they're a meal. Everybody knows the animals that eventually become our food don't look forward to the final process, and even though the people who butcher them don't know what exactly they are trying to communicate, its a safe assumption that they aren't thankful that they're finally being put to good use.

If a far advanced species would come along and decide that we were no longer the top of all food chains, well thats gotta suck for us, because what they'd be doing is no different than what we do, regardless of our ability to communicate with them or not. I gotta side with Jvig. However we got here is irrelevant, but we are in the fortunate opportunity to be at the top of almost every food chain. If something were to happen that changes it, it doesn't make it any less moral if another species would eat us than what we do for food.
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Old 05-17-2012, 11:31 AM    (permalink
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I also do believe that some animals have a sense of ethics, though it is probably different than what humans call ethics. For humans the focus is on equality or fair opportunity, but with a pack of wolves for example, dominant males and females get first dibs on their prey. Usually because they have the most responsibility and do most of the hunting work, so you get a certain amount based on what you provide for the pack, as an example. "Lesser" wolves who challenge that face repercussions, or need to step up and take on a more dominant role, both in the pack and in hunting.
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Old 05-17-2012, 11:33 AM    (permalink
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OK, but now what if you spoke their language?

Personally, I feel communication is almost a moot point.
Ahh, but your conscience is very critical to this issue. As JR stated, if those animals could speak English he would not eat them. Why is that? I assume because their squeals and guttural moans would now convey emotional messages that would deeper impact our conscience.
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