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Old 01-15-2010, 11:24 AM    (permalink
cotts1
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Ugghh ... Haden @ #2 then follow that up with another undersized CB. I would hate that draft. Do you mean CJ Wilson in rd 3? I don't know of a CJ Williams ... Not splitting hairs, just curious. I like Haden's skills if we were to trade up the board & get more picks and he was there at like 10 I would be cool with that but not @ #2 overall Norman. You like making my blood boil don't you?! HA! ;o)



Your strategy of drafting "skill" with high round picks has really been working good for Detroit the past decade. Shall I list the busts? Right now there are as many or more undrafted or late round picks @ RB & WR in this league as there are lineman. (For every Stafford a Romo .. for every Pettigrew a Gates .. for every K. Smith a R. Grant .. for every CJ a Donald Driver) I'm just say'n ...

Also, that is untrue about the Colts actually ... TE is a lineman so is DE. Clark (02) Freeney (03) both first round picks. Tony Ugoh was pick #42 (rd 2) in 07 which technically is not a 1st rounder, but a pretty high pick imo. In conclusion, ditto of what the others said about a 4x NFL MVP calling the shots back there, making the line look better than they are.
You think Matt Millen knows what skill is?????????? You act like I would have taken Charles Rogers, Mike Williams, Roy Williams, Kevin Jones, etc. I hated all those picks.....When I say skill, I mean playmaker, not a player who happens to play a skill position.

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Old 01-15-2010, 11:31 AM    (permalink
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The Colts actually traded their first round pick the following year for the opportunity to draft Ugoh.
I'll give you that, even though he technically still was a 2nd round pick. The point is the Colts O-line does as good a job as anyone with mainly mid-round talent that they coach up. You CAN'T teach things like speed, agility, ball-hawking instincts (basically what Eric Berry brings to the table) but you CAN teach a big, strong, athletic guy proper footwork, blocking assignments and angles.
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Old 01-15-2010, 11:36 AM    (permalink
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I really like all three of those guys. McCarthy is a pretty underrated playmaker. I was trying to think of the type of safety I want next to Delmas. A ballhawk?



I'd really like this draft. At the top of round 2 I think Everson Griffin might slip as well. Kyle Wilson is a stud and a great returner.
I would love Everson Griffin at 34...wouldn't mind Wilson in round 3 either.
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Old 01-15-2010, 11:49 AM    (permalink
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I'll give you that, even though he technically still was a 2nd round pick. The point is the Colts O-line does as good a job as anyone with mainly mid-round talent that they coach up. You CAN'T teach things like speed, agility, ball-hawking instincts (basically what Eric Berry brings to the table) but you CAN teach a big, strong, athletic guy proper footwork, blocking assignments and angles.
Dude, you need to hit the sig request thread and ask BoneKrusher to make you a sig that says "Eric Berry gives me a woody". And the pic can be of Berry laying some wood on an unfortunate victim.
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Old 01-15-2010, 01:06 PM    (permalink
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You think Matt Millen knows what skill is?????????? You act like I would have taken Charles Rogers, Mike Williams, Roy Williams, Kevin Jones, etc. I hated all those picks.....When I say skill, I mean playmaker, not a player who happens to play a skill position.
Millen does not know how to spell skill. However this trend did not stop with Millen fella ... last draft we took QB, TE, (S) ,WR/KR! So with 3 of the first 4 picks we went (offensive) "skill" position players & according to your definition all 4 would qualify as skill guys since Delmas is a playmaker ...

My main point is that our Dline is void of athletic talent & our defense has been neglected for the most part the past decade with high end draft picks. You can be 295 or 330 & be skilled imho. I'm pretty sure you agree, with the playmaker comment above ... which is why I think the trend turns around this year! Either Suh/McCoy would bring "skill" to that position that say Landen Cohen is lacking. Or skill from say a drafted guy like Hughes/Griffen off the edge that a DeWayne White or Jason Hunter lacks. These said drafted players start winning one on one match ups up front we don't need highly drafted DB's trying to cover WR's for 6 seconds!
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Old 01-15-2010, 01:16 PM    (permalink
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I'll give you that, even though he technically still was a 2nd round pick. The point is the Colts O-line does as good a job as anyone with mainly mid-round talent that they coach up. You CAN'T teach things like speed, agility, ball-hawking instincts (basically what Eric Berry brings to the table) but you CAN teach a big, strong, athletic guy proper footwork, blocking assignments and angles.
As for another top 40 pick on a Safety (especially at the #2 spot) seems foolish being that it would the 4th at that position in the past like 5 drafts (Bullocks, Alexander, Delmas, Berry) ?!?!
Argh, to me that is insanity. (doing the same thing over & over again expecting different results)
Something comparable would be like the Arizona Cardinals going out & drafting a RB with their 1st pick this year. Beanie Wells is establishing himself as of late, but every team needs a 1-2 punch at RB right ... so let's get Jahvid Best with our 1st round pick?! You may argue that 2 safties are on the field at the same time & RB's are not, but there are plenty of organizations that utilize 2 back sets, including Zona. (Hightower & Wells on field same time) That's a spoil of riches at 1 position, they may be able to afford it since they are a division champion but the Lion's have holes in needier places than S. I still think they have hope for Ko Simpson next to Delmas back there (Bullocks returns from injury as well) and maybe drafting a S in the 4th or 5th ... just my opinion though.
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Old 01-15-2010, 01:31 PM    (permalink
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As for another top 40 pick on a Safety (especially at the #2 spot) seems foolish being that it would the 4th at that position in the past like 5 drafts (Bullocks, Alexander, Delmas, Berry) ?!?!
Argh, to me that is insanity. (doing the same thing over & over again expecting different results)
Something comparable would be like the Arizona Cardinals going out & drafting a RB with their 1st pick this year. Beanie Wells is establishing himself as of late, but every team needs a 1-2 punch at RB right ... so let's get Jahvid Best with our 1st round pick?! You may argue that 2 safties are on the field at the same time & RB's are not, but there are plenty of organizations that utilize 2 back sets, including Zona. (Hightower & Wells on field same time) That's a spoil of riches at 1 position, they may be able to afford it since they are a division champion but the Lion's have holes in needier places than S. I still think they have hope for Ko Simpson next to Delmas back there (Bullocks returns from injury as well) and maybe drafting a S in the 4th or 5th ... just my opinion though.
You are missing the far more accurate example: should the Lions have passed on the talent of Calvin Johnson because of Mike Williams and Charles Rodgers?
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Old 01-15-2010, 01:52 PM    (permalink
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Millen does not know how to spell skill. However this trend did not stop with Millen fella ... last draft we took QB, TE, (S) ,WR/KR! So with 3 of the first 4 picks we went (offensive) "skill" position players & according to your definition all 4 would qualify as skill guys since Delmas is a playmaker ...

My main point is that our Dline is void of athletic talent & our defense has been neglected for the most part the past decade with high end draft picks. You can be 295 or 330 & be skilled imho. I'm pretty sure you agree, with the playmaker comment above ... which is why I think the trend turns around this year! Either Suh/McCoy would bring "skill" to that position that say Landen Cohen is lacking. Or skill from say a drafted guy like Hughes/Griffen off the edge that a DeWayne White or Jason Hunter lacks. These said drafted players start winning one on one match ups up front we don't need highly drafted DB's trying to cover WR's for 6 seconds!
Again you didn't understand what I said. I said I prefer taking skill, REGARDLESS of position. If I thought Suh was a better prospect than Berry, I would say we should draft Suh!!!!..... However, I don't think he is better.........

Again, you can find athletic DT's in round 2,3. You ain't gonna find an elite safety who can play CB outside the top 5.
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Old 01-15-2010, 01:58 PM    (permalink
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Bullocks and Alexander should have no bearing on any future picks....they were horrible picks by a horrible GM.....they are no longer part of this team, completely irrelevant.
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Old 01-15-2010, 02:04 PM    (permalink
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(Hightower & Wells on field same time) That's a spoil of riches at 1 position, they may be able to afford it since they are a division champion but the Lion's have holes in needier places than S. I still think they have hope for Ko Simpson next to Delmas back there (Bullocks returns from injury as well) and maybe drafting a S in the 4th or 5th ... just my opinion though.
The Lions had bigger needs than WR in 2007 when they drafted CJ. I guess they should have taken Gaines Adams, Amobi Akoye, or Jamaal Anderson huh? Those were bigger needs but even Matt Millen knew he couldn't pass on such an exceptional talent in Calvin Johnson.
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Old 01-15-2010, 02:05 PM    (permalink
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You are missing the far more accurate example: should the Lions have passed on the talent of Calvin Johnson because of Mike Williams and Charles Rodgers?
WR is different than S
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Old 01-15-2010, 02:05 PM    (permalink
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Again you didn't understand what I said. I said I prefer taking skill, REGARDLESS of position. If I thought Suh was a better prospect than Berry, I would say we should draft Suh!!!!..... However, I don't think he is better.........

Again, you can find athletic DT's in round 2,3. You ain't gonna find an elite safety who can play CB outside the top 5.
You do realize that only 1 Safety in the history of NFL football has been drafted in the top 5 so you arguement holds no water. Obviously you can find good Safeties later in the draft.
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Old 01-15-2010, 02:07 PM    (permalink
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Dude, you need to hit the sig request thread and ask BoneKrusher to make you a sig that says "Eric Berry gives me a woody". And the pic can be of Berry laying some wood on an unfortunate victim.
Like I honestly will ask bonekrusher to make me a sig of Berry if we draft him.....
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Old 01-15-2010, 02:09 PM    (permalink
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You do realize that only 1 Safety in the history of NFL football has been drafted in the top 5 so you arguement holds no water. Obviously you can find good Safeties later in the draft.
That's because none of those safeties could also play CB!!!!!! except the late great Sean T....
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Old 01-15-2010, 02:12 PM    (permalink
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The Lions had bigger needs than WR in 2007 when they drafted CJ. I guess they should have taken Gaines Adams, Amobi Akoye, or Jamaal Anderson huh? Those were bigger needs but even Matt Millen knew he couldn't pass on such an exceptional talent in Calvin Johnson.
Please, don't use Matt Millen as an example of a GM who knew what he was doing. They don't equate. I would have preferred Joe Thomas over Calvin Johnson. Last I looked, Thomas made the NFL All Pro team while I don't see Johnson's name on it.
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Old 01-15-2010, 02:19 PM    (permalink
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Please, don't use Matt Millen as an example of a GM who knew what he was doing. They don't equate. I would have preferred Joe Thomas over Calvin Johnson. Last I looked, Thomas made the NFL All Pro team while I don't see Johnson's name on it.
Wow I mean are you trying to say Calvin Johnson is not one of the top 3 most talented WR's in the league? You can't compare Thomas to CJ....CJ has to rely on his QB to get him the ball. Joe Thomas just has to block the guy across from him. Tell me this....Who is more likely to win a game for you...Joe Thomas or Calvin Johnson?
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Old 01-15-2010, 02:19 PM    (permalink
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I'm sure Berry will get a very fair look, Stafford and contest to how good he is.

This is really the first time I think we can't go wrong with 3 prospects.
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Old 01-15-2010, 02:19 PM    (permalink
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Again you didn't understand what I said. I said I prefer taking skill, REGARDLESS of position. If I thought Suh was a better prospect than Berry, I would say we should draft Suh!!!!..... However, I don't think he is better.........

Again, you can find athletic DT's in round 2,3. You ain't gonna find an elite safety who can play CB outside the top 5.
Suh and McCoy aren't athletic DT prospects, they're elite DT prospects.

You can find good safeties in rounds 2 and 3 as well.

The argument you make in favour of Berry can be made for Suh and McCoy as well...
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Old 01-15-2010, 02:20 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by cotts1 View Post
That's because none of those safeties could also play CB!!!!!! except the late great Sean T....
NFL teams don't draft players in the top 5 to have them try and switch positions. There are zero guarantees that Berry could even make the switch after playing his whole career at S for Tennessee. I also don't think Sean Taylor at 6'4", 235 lbs was in any way able to play CB either. He never played it in college or in the pros.
Now if Berry were a CB with great 4.30 speed and had played the position his whole career in college and had proven to be an All star at that position, then there is no doubt, he would be a top CB prospect and likely top 5 pick, however he played Safety and that is what he will play in the pros.
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Old 01-15-2010, 02:31 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Iamcanadian View Post
NFL teams don't draft players in the top 5 to have them try and switch positions. There are zero guarantees that Berry could even make the switch after playing his whole career at S for Tennessee. I also don't think Sean Taylor at 6'4", 235 lbs was in any way able to play CB either. He never played it in college or in the pros.
Now if Berry were a CB with great 4.30 speed and had played the position his whole career in college and had proven to be an All star at that position, then there is no doubt, he would be a top CB prospect and likely top 5 pick, however he played Safety and that is what he will play in the pros.
I meant except Sean Taylor, as in he didn't play CB, he was just a beast which is why he was top 5.

Berry would line up at CB at certain times throughout a game in college. He can play the position, it's not a question of that. He prefers to play safety, so that's where he plays. Monte Kiffin has been quoted as saying Berry is the best DB prospect he has EVER seen. He's said Berry could play any position in an NFL secondary at an elite level. Yes he is alittle bias, but do you think he's just making all this up or something? Monte was a great D-coordinator for a long time, he knows what he's talking about.

Players make position changes all the time...many college DE's switch to OLB. many college CB's switch to S? many college WR's switch to TE. Jason Peters played TE in college, he's now an all-star LT....go figure. Berry can play CB or S and if you don't think he can then I don't know what else to tell you man.....

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Old 01-15-2010, 02:37 PM    (permalink
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Wow I mean are you trying to say Calvin Johnson is not one of the top 3 most talented WR's in the league? You can't compare Thomas to CJ....CJ has to rely on his QB to get him the ball. Joe Thomas just has to block the guy across from him. Tell me this....Who is more likely to win a game for you...Joe Thomas or Calvin Johnson?
Here is the NFL All Pro team for this year and I see Joe Thomas on it but I don't see Calvin among the top 4 WR's in the NFL.

2009 All-Pro Team


FIRST TEAM

OFFENSE

Quarterback: Peyton Manning, Indianapolis.
Running Backs: Chris Johnson, Tennessee; Adrian Peterson, Minnesota.
Fullback: Leonard Weaver, Philadelphia.
Tight End: Dallas Clark, Indianapolis.
Wide Receivers: Andre Johnson, Houston; Wes Welker, New England.
Tackles: Ryan Clady, Denver; Joe Thomas, Cleveland.
Guards: Steve Hutchinson, Minnesota; Jahri Evans, New Orleans.
Center: Nick Mangold, New York Jets.
Placekicker: Nate Kaeding, San Diego.
Kick Returner: Joshua Cribbs, Cleveland.

DEFENSE

Ends: Jared Allen, Minnesota; Dwight Freeney, Indianapolis.
Tackles: Jay Ratliff, Dallas; Kevin Williams, Minnesota.
Outside Linebackers: Elvis Dumervil, Denver; DeMarcus Ware, Dallas.
Inside Linebacker: Patrick Willis, San Francisco; Ray Lewis, Baltimore.
Cornerbacks: Charles Woodson, Green Bay; Darrelle Revis, New York Jets.
Safeties: Darren Sharper, New Orleans; Adrian Wilson, Arizona.
Punter: Shane Lechler, Oakland.

SECOND TEAM

OFFENSE

Quarterback: Drew Brees, New Orleans.
Running Backs: Ray Rice, Baltimore; Steven Jackson, St. Louis.
Fullback: Le'Ron McClain, Baltimore.
Tight End: Antonio Gates, San Diego.
Wide Receivers: Reggie Wayne, Indianapolis; Larry Fitzgerald, Arizona.
Tackles: Michael Roos, Tennessee; Jake Long, Miami.
Guards: Logan Mankins, New England; Kris Dielman, San Diego.
Center: Andre Gurode, Dallas.
Placekicker: David Akers, Philadelphia.
Kick Returner: DeSean Jackson, Philadelphia.

DEFENSE

Ends: Trent Cole, Philadelphia; Julius Peppers, Carolina.
Tackles: Darnell Dockett, Arizona; Haloti Ngata, Baltimore.
Outside Linebackers: Brian Cushing, Houston; LaMarr Woodley, Pittsburgh.
Inside Linebackers: David Harris, New York Jets; Jon Beason, Carolina.
Cornerbacks: Nnamdi Asomugha, Oakland; Asante Samuel, Philadelphia, and Leon Hall, Cincinnati (tie).
Safeties: Brian Dawkins, Denver; Ed Reed, Baltimore, and Nick Collins, Green Bay (tie).
Punter: Andy Lee, San Francisco, and Donnie Jones, St. Louis (tie).

Joe Thomas is far more likely to win games for his team than Johnson. Without a LT, you QB cannot get the ball to Johnson. In fact, WR's are considered a secondary position on a football team for that very reason, because they have to depend on their QB. NFL GM's will take a potential All Pro LT way before they would draft a WR.
How old are you because an awful lot of your ideas seem rather immature to me. I mean you claim Johnson can win games on his own when all he's done so far is help win 2 out of 32 games in his career. Makes your arguement pointless. Cleveland is pretty bad also with no QB and certainly no WR's and yett they have won more games than us so Thomas must be doing something to contribute.
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Old 01-15-2010, 02:40 PM    (permalink
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Suh and McCoy aren't athletic DT prospects, they're elite DT prospects.

You can find good safeties in rounds 2 and 3 as well.

The argument you make in favour of Berry can be made for Suh and McCoy as well...
Your right they are elite DT's, I still think Berry is a better prospect... I don't let position dictate who to draft, skill dictates that.

If you guys think Berry is such a waste then how come he is the consensus number 1 player among many draft analysts?
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Old 01-15-2010, 02:48 PM    (permalink
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Here is the NFL All Pro team for this year and I see Joe Thomas on it but I don't see Calvin among the top 4 WR's in the NFL.

2009 All-Pro Team


FIRST TEAM

OFFENSE

Quarterback: Peyton Manning, Indianapolis.
Running Backs: Chris Johnson, Tennessee; Adrian Peterson, Minnesota.
Fullback: Leonard Weaver, Philadelphia.
Tight End: Dallas Clark, Indianapolis.
Wide Receivers: Andre Johnson, Houston; Wes Welker, New England.
Tackles: Ryan Clady, Denver; Joe Thomas, Cleveland.
Guards: Steve Hutchinson, Minnesota; Jahri Evans, New Orleans.
Center: Nick Mangold, New York Jets.
Placekicker: Nate Kaeding, San Diego.
Kick Returner: Joshua Cribbs, Cleveland.

DEFENSE

Ends: Jared Allen, Minnesota; Dwight Freeney, Indianapolis.
Tackles: Jay Ratliff, Dallas; Kevin Williams, Minnesota.
Outside Linebackers: Elvis Dumervil, Denver; DeMarcus Ware, Dallas.
Inside Linebacker: Patrick Willis, San Francisco; Ray Lewis, Baltimore.
Cornerbacks: Charles Woodson, Green Bay; Darrelle Revis, New York Jets.
Safeties: Darren Sharper, New Orleans; Adrian Wilson, Arizona.
Punter: Shane Lechler, Oakland.

SECOND TEAM

OFFENSE

Quarterback: Drew Brees, New Orleans.
Running Backs: Ray Rice, Baltimore; Steven Jackson, St. Louis.
Fullback: Le'Ron McClain, Baltimore.
Tight End: Antonio Gates, San Diego.
Wide Receivers: Reggie Wayne, Indianapolis; Larry Fitzgerald, Arizona.
Tackles: Michael Roos, Tennessee; Jake Long, Miami.
Guards: Logan Mankins, New England; Kris Dielman, San Diego.
Center: Andre Gurode, Dallas.
Placekicker: David Akers, Philadelphia.
Kick Returner: DeSean Jackson, Philadelphia.

DEFENSE

Ends: Trent Cole, Philadelphia; Julius Peppers, Carolina.
Tackles: Darnell Dockett, Arizona; Haloti Ngata, Baltimore.
Outside Linebackers: Brian Cushing, Houston; LaMarr Woodley, Pittsburgh.
Inside Linebackers: David Harris, New York Jets; Jon Beason, Carolina.
Cornerbacks: Nnamdi Asomugha, Oakland; Asante Samuel, Philadelphia, and Leon Hall, Cincinnati (tie).
Safeties: Brian Dawkins, Denver; Ed Reed, Baltimore, and Nick Collins, Green Bay (tie).
Punter: Andy Lee, San Francisco, and Donnie Jones, St. Louis (tie).

Joe Thomas is far more likely to win games for his team than Johnson. Without a LT, you QB cannot get the ball to Johnson. In fact, WR's are considered a secondary position on a football team for that very reason, because they have to depend on their QB. NFL GM's will take a potential All Pro LT way before they would draft a WR.
How old are you because an awful lot of your ideas seem rather immature to me. I mean you claim Johnson can win games on his own when all he's done so far is help win 2 out of 32 games in his career. Makes your arguement pointless. Cleveland is pretty bad also with no QB and certainly no WR's and yett they have won more games than us so Thomas must be doing something to contribute.

LOL...Detroit beat your Joe Thomas led Cleveland Browns this year didn't they. Calvin Johnson had 161 yards and a TD in that game.......What did Joe Thomas do in that game?

You saying Joe Thomas is the reason for Cleveland winning more games this year than Lions is ridiculous. Cleveland has an overall better team. Both are great players, but I would be willing to bet you 75% of GM's would still take Calvin over Joe Thomas. Why? because there are Joe Thomas' coming out every year, you can find Joe Thomas' in the 1st round, the 2nd round, even the 3rd round. Calvin Johnson's do not come along very often, you won't find a Calvin Johnson in round 2 or round 3. Yadig?

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Old 01-15-2010, 02:56 PM    (permalink
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Your right they are elite DT's, I still think Berry is a better prospect... I don't let position dictate who to draft, skill dictates that.

If you guys think Berry is such a waste then how come he is the consensus number 1 player among many draft analysts?
Dude, your man-crush for Berry is intense.

I don't think that anyone has said that Berry would be a waste. I think that the general feeling is that Suh is a better prospect and fills a bigger need at the same time. McCoy and Berry might be a toss up.

If the Lions draft Berry, I'll still be happy. I know he's an amazing prospect. I'd just be happier if it were Suh or McCoy. Don't take this personally man, adopt some objectivity.
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Old 01-15-2010, 02:58 PM    (permalink
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I meant except Sean Taylor, as in he didn't play CB, he was just a beast which is why he was top 5.

Berry would line up at CB at certain times throughout a game in college. He can play the position, it's not a question of that. He prefers to play safety, so that's where he plays. Monte Kiffin has been quoted as saying Berry is the best DB prospect he has EVER seen. He's said Berry could play any position in an NFL secondary at an elite level. Yes he is alittle bias, but do you think he's just making all this up or something? Monte was a great D-coordinator for a long time, he knows what he's talking about.

Players make position changes all the time...many college DE's switch to OLB. many college CB's switch to S? many college WR's switch to TE. Jason Peters played TE in college, he's now an all-star LT....go figure. Berry can play CB or S and if you don't think he can then I don't know what else to tell you man.....
This last part is true but you will only find a top 5 drafted player switching positions if he fails at the position he was drafted to play. You simple don't get drafted in the top 5 with the idea that you can switch positions. They want sure things when they draft you in the top 5, they aren't going to pay you all that money to find out if you can switch, far too risky for all the money involved.
Now, I'm not saying Berry cannot play CB, all I'm saying is he will be a Safety in the NFL and likely a very good one but there is a reason why a NFL CB makes almost twice as much money as a NFL Safety and it has a lot to do with the importance of the position to a pro football team.

I don't know what Kiffen's reason are for making that statement, perhaps he was using it as a recruiting tool to improve their chances at getting DB's. I do know this, that I have heard coaches say all the time that so and so will be a great NFL Player. The former coach who trained Henson, the former Michigan QB, before his selection in the supplemental draft, said he would have gone #1 overall if he had taken part in the regular draft yet he ended up going in round 3 if I remember right. Since then, I don't take what coaches say too seriously. They tend to exaggerate especially when they are recruiting.
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