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Old 01-15-2010, 02:06 PM    (permalink
cotts1
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Originally Posted by noondog View Post
Dude, your man-crush for Berry is intense.

I don't think that anyone has said that Berry would be a waste. I think that the general feeling is that Suh is a better prospect and fills a bigger need at the same time. McCoy and Berry might be a toss up.

If the Lions draft Berry, I'll still be happy. I know he's an amazing prospect. I'd just be happier if it were Suh or McCoy. Don't take this personally man, adopt some objectivity.
I mean I guess my man crush for berry is only paralleled by your crush for ndamukong suh..........??.....

I've said many times, I won't be upset if Suh is picked.... he is a phenomenal prospect.

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Old 01-15-2010, 02:12 PM    (permalink
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I'd give my anal virginity to have Suh be the pick but if not then Okung-McCoy-Berry are all on equal footing to me.
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oh please. as if canadians even know what beer is.
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Old 01-15-2010, 02:28 PM    (permalink
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This last part is true but you will only find a top 5 drafted player switching positions if he fails at the position he was drafted to play. You simple don't get drafted in the top 5 with the idea that you can switch positions. They want sure things when they draft you in the top 5, they aren't going to pay you all that money to find out if you can switch, far too risky for all the money involved.
Now, I'm not saying Berry cannot play CB, all I'm saying is he will be a Safety in the NFL and likely a very good one but there is a reason why a NFL CB makes almost twice as much money as a NFL Safety and it has a lot to do with the importance of the position to a pro football team.

I don't know what Kiffen's reason are for making that statement, perhaps he was using it as a recruiting tool to improve their chances at getting DB's. I do know this, that I have heard coaches say all the time that so and so will be a great NFL Player. The former coach who trained Henson, the former Michigan QB, before his selection in the supplemental draft, said he would have gone #1 overall if he had taken part in the regular draft yet he ended up going in round 3 if I remember right. Since then, I don't take what coaches say too seriously. They tend to exaggerate especially when they are recruiting.
Let me also say in regards to Joe Thomas being an all-pro and CJ not. CJ did miss a few weeks due to injury this year, and also had Daunte Culpepper and Drew Stanton throwing him the ball for a fairly significant portion of the season.

Drew Henson doesn't really relate because he chose baseball over football. NFL teams knew that, and the fact he still was picked in the 3rd round of the supplemental draft only shows how talented he was. He may have been an all-pro QB if he had went into the NFL after college. We'll never know, but history is on the side of Michigan QB's succeeding in the NFL.
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Old 01-15-2010, 02:31 PM    (permalink
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weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

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Old 01-15-2010, 03:41 PM    (permalink
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Cotts1, my man, I feel your passion ... but let me make a few comments here to see if we are on the same level of understanding.

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Bullocks and Alexander should have no bearing on any future picks....they were horrible picks by a horrible GM.....they are no longer part of this team, completely irrelevant.
Bullocks is on IR & still collecting a check from the Detroit Lions. Whether he is in their long term plans is another question ...

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I meant except Sean Taylor, as in he didn't play CB, he was just a beast which is why he was top 5.

Berry would line up at CB at certain times throughout a game in college. He can play the position, it's not a question of that. He prefers to play safety, so that's where he plays. Monte Kiffin has been quoted as saying Berry is the best DB prospect he has EVER seen. He's said Berry could play any position in an NFL secondary at an elite level. Yes he is alittle bias, but do you think he's just making all this up or something? Monte was a great D-coordinator for a long time, he knows what he's talking about.

[Players make position changes all the time...many college DE's switch to OLB. many college CB's switch to S? many college WR's switch to TE. Jason Peters played TE in college, he's now an all-star LT....go figure. Berry can play CB or S and if you don't think he can then I don't know what else to tell you man.....

Along those same lines recently Jim Schwarz said Jeff Backus had a Pro Bowl type season & should have been considered at the Tackle position for the game. He is a little bias too ... should we believe him b/c he said that? NO WAY! What coaches say about players on the team they currently coach is not something we should gauge a guys talent level on, regardless of the caliber of the coach (ie Monte Kiffin). I'm sure Nick Saban will deflect/defend conditioning & work ethic questions regarding Mt. Cody teh next 3 months leading up to the draft. So should I take him at his word that the guy is not going to show at 400+ to training camp after I pay him all that $$? HARDLY!


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Your right they are elite DT's, I still think Berry is a better prospect... I don't let position dictate who to draft, skill dictates that.

If you guys think Berry is such a waste then how come he is the consensus number 1 player among many draft analysts?
Do you realize how ridiculous this is? You said "I don't let position dictate who to draft". So "what if" QB Jimmy Clausen is the clear cut #1 prospect on the board and St. Louis takes Suh ... according to your logic the Lions take a QB @ #2 since his skill dictates he is the BPA. Ridiculous. It's part of it, no question. But there also has to be a weighted decision based on the position he plays cotts1! There just has to be! I certainly have never called Berry a waste. He is an amazing talent ... for another team. We have several other needs & obvious holes to fill on a team that has won 2 games in 2 season, that a S #2 just does not make sense ... regardless of the players projected skill set at the position. It's the position, not the player!
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Old 01-15-2010, 07:45 PM    (permalink
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WR is different than S
S is different than RB too.

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Please, don't use Matt Millen as an example of a GM who knew what he was doing. They don't equate. I would have preferred Joe Thomas over Calvin Johnson. Last I looked, Thomas made the NFL All Pro team while I don't see Johnson's name on it.
Calvin Johnson was the better pick than Joe Thomas. Franchise LT's are found every draft, WR's with the skill set of Calvin Johnson come along once a decade.
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Old 01-15-2010, 07:46 PM    (permalink
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I was gun ho on the Berry bandwagon, but now you can ONLY justify the pick if you believe he can play CB. The talent at Safety in this class is crazy good.

But the talent at Defensive Tackle is great as well.

I can make the argument that if Joe Haden runs a sub 4.4 40 he should be our pick.
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Old 01-15-2010, 08:32 PM    (permalink
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I would like to hear the key reasons of why you would take Haden at #2.
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Old 01-15-2010, 08:45 PM    (permalink
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Because he thinks Ernie Sims is good and is therefore a very problematic thinker?
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Old 01-15-2010, 09:14 PM    (permalink
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Because he thinks Ernie Sims is good and is therefore a very problematic thinker?
Maybe we move Sims to S & draft Haden #2 ... our defensive backfield problems wold then be solved! I could not even type that without grinning, then slightly throwing up in my mouth ...
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Old 01-16-2010, 07:08 AM    (permalink
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Calvin Johnson was the better pick than Joe Thomas. Franchise LT's are found every draft, WR's with the skill set of Calvin Johnson come along once a decade.
i would trade calvin for joe thomas any day of the year. give me a competent offensive coordinator who moves the chains and julian edelman instead.
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Old 01-16-2010, 10:24 AM    (permalink
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I would like to hear the key reasons of why you would take Haden at #2.
A shut down corner is worthy of the costs of a high draft pick. The quality of depth in this draft at corner is worse than the quality of defensive tackle. Corner is a bigger need than defensive tackle as we lack one solid starter at CB where as I believe we have one starting DT already on our roster.
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Old 01-16-2010, 10:25 AM    (permalink
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i would trade calvin for joe thomas any day of the year. give me a competent offensive coordinator who moves the chains and julian edelman instead.
Fine, I disagree entirely but you are certainly entitled to your opinion. I just believe it's far far far easier to find a stud LT than a freak WR.
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Old 01-16-2010, 12:50 PM    (permalink
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But a stud left tackle is far more valuable to a team than a freak wide receiver. I'm pleased with Calvin but, like Prowler, I'd trade him straight up for Joe Thomas if the opportunity presented itself.
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Old 01-16-2010, 01:24 PM    (permalink
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A shut down corner is worthy of the costs of a high draft pick. The quality of depth in this draft at corner is worse than the quality of defensive tackle. Corner is a bigger need than defensive tackle as we lack one solid starter at CB where as I believe we have one starting DT already on our roster.
You are getting really poor value by taking Haden. Plus with the way pass inteference is called now a days you better hope he is a STUD.
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Old 01-16-2010, 02:22 PM    (permalink
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A shut down corner is worthy of the costs of a high draft pick. The quality of depth in this draft at corner is worse than the quality of defensive tackle. Corner is a bigger need than defensive tackle as we lack one solid starter at CB where as I believe we have one starting DT already on our roster.
Please Joe Haden at 2? He isn't even the best corner in his conference. Patrick Peterson, who will come out next year is better than Haden.

I'd take both DTs, Berry, McClain, or Okung before I would draft Haden at 2.
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Old 01-16-2010, 02:32 PM    (permalink
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Relatively weak CB class...Haden just happens to be the best of the lot. Not an elite CB imho.

Sort of a similar situation with Okung and OT class.
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Old 01-16-2010, 02:53 PM    (permalink
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i would trade calvin for joe thomas any day of the year. give me a competent offensive coordinator who moves the chains and julian edelman instead.
This is just insane to me. Jeff Backus wasn't even too bad this year, sure Thomas would be an upgrade. Although if you think it would make us better on offense with Thomas and no CJ your craaaaaaaaaaaaaazy!!!! CJ is a playmaker, anytime he touches the ball he is a threat to go the distance. A LT can only do so much to, Stafford/Smith will still have to rely on a no-name LG, crappy Raiola, inconsistent Peterman, and even more inconsistent Cherlius to do their jobs......

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Old 01-16-2010, 05:46 PM    (permalink
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for the system of offense that we run, we absolutely need a calvin johnson type to stretch the field vertically. in my ideal world though i would prefer to just do easy underneath routes ala the patriots and work horizontally with a few vertical shots thrown in. i think with a joe thomas we would have a more consistent offense since we'd be able to dominate one side of the field on run and pass plays. cj tends to just entice our qbs to force throws and is too inconsistent to be a championship caliber team. and yeah after a few more drafts and we acquire more talent then it'll be a moot point and we'll have the proper personnel with experience to run our offense.
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Old 01-28-2010, 12:14 PM    (permalink
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I'm not going to fall folly to the pipe dream of FA. so here is what I see in the draft.

1. Suh else Okung - The one thing I've seen out of this FO is that it will take a #1 of the position if available. While yes Berry is the best available at his position I don't hink Ko Simpson is that bad at the SS position or at least not as bad as our starting UT, CBs, or LT. Yes, I did see what the OL Coach and OC said about Backus but I'm not buying it.

2. Kyle Wilson CB

3. George Selvie - Big pipe dream for me because I really like Selvie even more so than Brandon Grahm.

4. Mike Johnson OG Alabama - OGs usually drop like rocks unless they have aspirations of being an OT like in the case with Brandon Albert. Last year Duke Robinson everyone's top OG plumited to the 6th round. Max Jean Gillis dropped far as well when he came out.

5. Jacoby Ford WR - We need a new return threat and lets hope that Ford fills that gap.

6. Walter McFadden -I liked what I saw from him in the bowl game I don't even know if he will be here in the 6th
Is it coincidence that all of my picks that are at the senior bowl are kicking ass? This means that we are not getting any of these players at the spots I have them going :( .
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oh please. as if canadians even know what beer is.
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Old 01-28-2010, 09:59 PM    (permalink
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NFL teams don't draft players in the top 5 to have them try and switch positions. There are zero guarantees that Berry could even make the switch after playing his whole career at S for Tennessee. I also don't think Sean Taylor at 6'4", 235 lbs was in any way able to play CB either. He never played it in college or in the pros.
Now if Berry were a CB with great 4.30 speed and had played the position his whole career in college and had proven to be an All star at that position, then there is no doubt, he would be a top CB prospect and likely top 5 pick, however he played Safety and that is what he will play in the pros.
Ronnie Lott was the #8 overall pick in the 82 draft if i remember correctly. He made the switch to corner his rookie year where he broke a rookie record taking 3 INT's to the house and finished 2nd in the ROY voting to Lawrence Taylor. They also won the Super Bowl that year. Lott then moved back to Safety before the 85 season where he finished his HOF career. He made all pro 11 times as a corner/FS/SS. This was all in the early/mid 80's where the passing game was not as developed as it is today and thus less important; so I would consider taking a S #8 overall then comparable to #2 overall today. I personally would not mind drafting Berry anyways despite being a Safety, but If they think he can play corner im OK with it.

Also Eric Berry played corner in HS and was recruited as a corner to Tenn. I even think he started at corner a few games at the start of his frosh year there. Monte Kiffen also lined him up in the slot quite a bit this year and has said he could play corner if they thought thats where he would make the biggest impact.
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Old 01-28-2010, 10:19 PM    (permalink
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Suh/McCoy and Kyle Wilson would be an amazing first two rounds. Wilson needs to stop dominating the Senior Bowl week so he is available at #34.
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Old 01-28-2010, 10:35 PM    (permalink
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I'm realllllllllly looking forward to the draft. It feels weird thinking that the Lions management will actually pick some good players.
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Old 01-28-2010, 11:04 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by P-L View Post
Suh/McCoy and Kyle Wilson would be an amazing first two rounds. Wilson needs to stop dominating the Senior Bowl week so he is available at #34.
I think Wilson's top end is the top of round 2, and the Lambs likely won't be selecting a CB there. Wilson's size will keep him out of round 1 imo. We may be able to get him.

I'd still prefer Iupati though...
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Old 01-28-2010, 11:09 PM    (permalink
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I'm realllllllllly looking forward to the draft. It feels weird thinking that the Lions management will actually pick some good players.
You guys have damn good picks every year. How can you act like you always end up with bad players? Not like you pick at the end of the rounds.

Oh wait... you took Brandon Pettigrew. :D Passed up on some real nice gems... but you did get the #1 TE! :P
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