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Old 02-23-2010, 02:51 PM    (permalink
yourfavestoner
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Originally Posted by bigbluedefense View Post
You're right. He is the best back of the decade. I'm not questioning that at all.

But when you compare him to the all time greats, thats when unfortunately you have to critique the guy in unjust ways at times. Because it's hard for me to call him a top 5 back of all time with his current qualifications. I think his lack of success in the playoffs as a whole, regardless of the reasons, are valid to excuse him from the top 5 discussion.

Again, 1st ballot HOFer, incredible back, best of this decade. But when we talk about top 5 of all time, you have to bring more to the table than LDT did. Thats all I'm saying.

Its not a knock on LDT per say, there are a ton of incredible backs out there, which is why i can't put him in the top 5 of all time.

That's all I'm saying.

He has great #s for sure, but when we talk about top 5 guys, I just don't think he's 1 of those guys.

Top 10? Absolutely. Somewhere in that 6-10 range. Just not top 5.
This brings me to a point I was going to make when the RB GOAT vote came up...

How the hell is Eric Dickerson not considered a top 3 running back of All-Time? You'll see him shoved in there somewhere in the top 10 usually, but he's never in the discussion for GOAT.
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Old 02-23-2010, 02:53 PM    (permalink
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This brings me to a point I was going to make when the RB GOAT vote came up...

How the hell is Eric Dickerson not considered a top 3 running back of All-Time? You'll see him shoved in there somewhere in the top 10 usually, but he's never in the discussion for GOAT.
he's not?

he's in my top 5 for sure.

Jim Brown
Barry Sanders
Walter Payton
Eric Dickerson
OJ Simpson

Jim Brown is my clearcut #1. The other 4 you can mix and match in a variety of ways.
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Old 02-23-2010, 03:01 PM    (permalink
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he's not?

he's in my top 5 for sure.

Jim Brown
Barry Sanders
Walter Payton
Eric Dickerson
OJ Simpson

Jim Brown is my clearcut #1. The other 4 you can mix and match in a variety of ways.
Completely agree with you. However, it seems like most people have some combination of either LT/Emmitt Smith/Tony Dorsett/Marcus Allen ahead of Dickerson All-Time.

I also wish Earl Campbell wouldn't have gotten run into the ground in 4 years. He's the closest thing we've seen to Jim Brown.
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Old 02-23-2010, 03:05 PM    (permalink
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Completely agree with you. However, it seems like most people have some combination of either LT/Emmitt Smith/Tony Dorsett/Marcus Allen ahead of Dickerson All-Time.

I also wish Earl Campbell wouldn't have gotten run into the ground in 4 years. He's the closest thing we've seen to Jim Brown.
Campbell could have possibly been better than Brown. Its a shame what happened to him.

Dickerson was much better than all those guys you mentioned. I think what hurt Dickerson was how the latter part of his career was mediocre. If the guy didn't screw up the end of his career, he couldve been the GOAT.

OJ Simpson is another guy who doesn't get the recognition he deserves bc...well...you know.
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Old 02-23-2010, 05:16 PM    (permalink
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Report: Sproles won't be back on one-year deal

Looking pretty thin at RB.
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Old 02-23-2010, 05:20 PM    (permalink
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Choo choo time to get on the Deangelo Williams/Jonathan Dwyer train.
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Old 02-23-2010, 05:32 PM    (permalink
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Sporles can come back up Jamaal Charlezzzzzzz forget smash and dash will just have dash and dash... :)
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Old 02-23-2010, 09:09 PM    (permalink
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he's not?

he's in my top 5 for sure.

Jim Brown
Barry Sanders
Walter Payton
Eric Dickerson
OJ Simpson

Jim Brown is my clearcut #1. The other 4 you can mix and match in a variety of ways.
Barry Sanders made the play offs like 5 times in his career and the team only won 1 or 2 of those games. Doesn't he fall into the same category as Tomlinson for lack of "career defining games"?
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Old 02-23-2010, 09:12 PM    (permalink
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Dwyer on the Chargers would be pure sex.
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Old 02-23-2010, 09:15 PM    (permalink
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I think if Spiller falls to the Chargers some sexiness would ensue. He would replace all facets of the game they need, return-man, 3rd down back etc. They'd probably need to to draft a late round thumper or sign a vet to help share the load. I think RB is far and away the #1 need for San Diego.
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Old 02-23-2010, 09:17 PM    (permalink
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Not only do I not really want to see LT here but I just could never see it happening.
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Old 02-23-2010, 09:18 PM    (permalink
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Sporles can come back up Jamaal Charlezzzzzzz forget smash and dash will just have dash and dash... :)
If they had gettin' away from the cops speed, they could be Dine 'N Dash!

*badum ching*

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Damn Ke$ha is sexy.
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Old 02-23-2010, 09:47 PM    (permalink
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If they had gettin' away from the cops speed, they could be Dine 'N Dash!

*badum ching*

Ohhhhhhhhh I see what you did there :)
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Old 02-23-2010, 09:56 PM    (permalink
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Anyone that watched Barry doesn't need anything other than their two eyes to tell you he was better. Barry was ******* incredible.
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Old 02-23-2010, 10:04 PM    (permalink
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the fact that barry played on a **** team likely plays a role. not that the chargers were all world every year for ldt but:

Tomlinson

5-11 No Playoffs
8-8 No Playoffs
4-12 No Playoffs
12-4 Played Great
9-7 No Playoffs
14-2 Dominated
11-5 Injured
8-8 Injured
13-3 Leading rusher was Sproles
I would never argue Ladainian over Barry but playoffs have never been a serious factor in RB comparisons to my knowledge. The guy had some untimely injuries and a bunch of bad teams early on. That was a big part of the 'all pro' comparisons, I mean LT turned in a 1600 yard rush, 100 catch season and didn't meake the Pro bowl in 2003.

and nj, you can't remember ANY Ladainian runs? Come on now. The single season record breaker even came against Denver.

/\that 8-8 'playoff' season is quite the sore thumb. :D
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Old 02-23-2010, 10:21 PM    (permalink
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Alright, calm down everybody. I never once said that Tomlinson was a better back, I suggested that Sanders never had any career defining games. If we're talking about regular season beat downs, Tomlinson had plenty of those. A career defining game should mean a game of more importance than a regular season slaughter which largely depends on the defense of your opponent.

I know Sanders was a better back, but to suggest that Tomlinson doesn't belong in the same category of him because of career defining games is silly. There are plenty of reasons why Sanders is better than Tomlinson, however this just isn't one of them.

despite nxj9 quoting me, he makes my point for me. It's all the other amazing things that Barry did that makes him better.
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Old 02-23-2010, 10:45 PM    (permalink
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Barry's Thanksgiving game against the Bears wasn't a career defining game? Does a game have to be in the playoffs to be career defining?
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Old 02-23-2010, 10:49 PM    (permalink
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i was perfectly calm. it just sounded like the kind of point that hundreds of people who were born in the last decade would love to glom onto. so i intentionally forestalled that discussion. =P



i dunno. if we're going to argue them for qbs, why not? it's arguably as important to marino's career as it is to, say, barry's.



i might've confused "can't" with "refuse to".

but seriously, i can't think of a single LDT run that compares to the standard nfl films sanders highlight (the big spin move), for instance.



stabstabstab.
Hm I'm probably not the best person to ask for individual LT highlights that stand out because I could throw a few dozen out...personal fave is probably turning Ty Law into dust, in open space. The man sat down on the field.




Some good ones up there. LT was a cutback runner so he left a wholllle bunch of people staring at nothing, that little sideways hop step he could pull off without losing forward momentum...insane. Plus his stiff arm was sick. All contributed to some amazing looking runs.

as for playoffs, I donno, I think it's not so much a factor for RBs because there are just so very many phenomenal players at that position who didn't achieve much postseason success.
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Old 02-24-2010, 12:15 AM    (permalink
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Barry Sanders made the play offs like 5 times in his career and the team only won 1 or 2 of those games. Doesn't he fall into the same category as Tomlinson for lack of "career defining games"?

Sanders' 6 games is too small a sample imo. Walter Payton played 9 games in the postseason and has the same number of 100 yd games as Barry - 1. Payton's career playoff ypc was also 3.51 compared to Barry's 4.24. Even Jim Brown had a 3.65 ypc, one 100-yd game and just 1 TD in 4 postseason games including a game of 8 yds on 7 att.

Nobody seems to penalise Gale Sayers who never even played a postseason game in his career. Sayers (and Butkus) of course had the misfortune of being stuck on some dreadful teams.

Walter's Bears (pre 1984) and Barry's Lions were never built to go far in the playoffs. Those teams were often just about good enough to reach the playoffs but go no further when faced against superior opposition (often on the road). Sometimes those teams were only in the playoffs because of Payton and Sanders. An example being Payton's Bears getting crushed 37-7 by a far better Dallas team in 1977 after Payton had the best season of his career. In fact Payton didn't notch his first playoff win until he was 30.

I can also remember Detroit giving up 41 and 58 pts to Washington and Philadelphia in the playoffs in the 90s. Both times Sanders was effectively taken out of the game and never allowed to get into a rhythm with only 11 and 10 carries respectively. Can't blame Barry for the Lions throwing 6 interceptions against the Eagles and going into HT down 38-7. Even when Dallas got beaten badly by the Lions in the 1991 playoffs the Cowboys swarmed around Sanders. Their gameplan that day was if the Lions are going to beat us they will have to do it with the pass, which Detroit duly did when Erik Kramer had the game of his life.

Tomlinson had much stronger teams around him during his prime. He had the franchise QB (two in fact) that Sanders and Payton never had.
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Old 02-24-2010, 12:43 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by boknows34 View Post
Sanders' 6 games is too small a sample imo. Walter Payton played 9 games in the postseason and has the same number of 100 yd games as Barry - 1. Payton's career playoff ypc was also 3.51 compared to Barry's 4.24. Even Jim Brown had a 3.65 ypc, one 100-yd game and just 1 TD in 4 postseason games including a game of 8 yds on 7 att.

Nobody seems to penalise Gale Sayers who never even played a postseason game in his career. Sayers (and Butkus) of course had the misfortune of being stuck on some dreadful teams.

Walter's Bears (pre 1984) and Barry's Lions were never built to go far in the playoffs. Those teams were often just about good enough to reach the playoffs but go no further when faced against superior opposition (often on the road). Sometimes those teams were only in the playoffs because of Payton and Sanders. An example being Payton's Bears getting crushed 37-7 by a far better Dallas team in 1977 after Payton had the best season of his career. In fact Payton didn't notch his first playoff win until he was 30.

I can also remember Detroit giving up 41 and 58 pts to Washington and Philadelphia in the playoffs in the 90s. Both times Sanders was effectively taken out of the game and never allowed to get into a rhythm with only 11 and 10 carries respectively. Can't blame Barry for the Lions throwing 6 interceptions against the Eagles and going into HT down 38-7. Even when Dallas got beaten badly by the Lions in the 1991 playoffs the Cowboys swarmed around Sanders. Their gameplan that day was if the Lions are going to beat us they will have to do it with the pass, which Detroit duly did when Erik Kramer had the game of his life.

Tomlinson had much stronger teams around him during his prime. He had the franchise QB (two in fact) that Sanders and Payton never had.
I don't blame Payton or Sanders for their lack of team success. I just don't think Tomlinson should be blamed either. Even if Tomlinson had better teams around him, he can't control how his teammates perform, the way the ball bounces, the scheme and game plan, etc. etc.

Again, I'm not comparing Barry Sanders to LaDainian Tomlinson as players. I just don't think you can make an excuse to exclude one from the list of top 5 backs and then arbitrarily decide to skip that excuse for another guy.
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Old 02-24-2010, 01:56 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by FlyingElvis View Post
Yeah, I roll my eyes every time I hear some talking head mention how LT could fill a "Faulk-like role" in NE.

Um, why would we need someone else to fill the role NAMED for the guy we have on our roster?
Tomlinson is no longer a good receiver, he's not even capable of filling a Faulk like role. People are vastly overestimating how much he has left, the guy was one of the worst running backs in the league last year.
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Old 02-24-2010, 02:25 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by 703SKINS202 View Post
When I look back at LT and compare him to the greats, I always just was bothered by the way he performed in the postseason. I think it boiled down to his leadership qualities and maturity. Even though he was injured you got to get in the game and at least try, its a shot at a SB, something that may only come once in your lifetime The way he acted in the colts playoff game was immature and that stupid dancing video he put out this year only confirms to me that he just doesn't get it. The greats are defined by titles not just career numbers. I know Chargers fans will blast me for this but this is just the way I have always felt.
Well during the time he was injured in the playoffs he may have just been a hindrance. Sometimes a man's will won't do the impossible.
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Oh, my bad. Didn't realize SWDC was the pinnacle of class and grace.
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Old 02-24-2010, 04:06 AM    (permalink
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in HD


hopefully this guy can take over for the chargers

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Old 02-24-2010, 11:14 AM    (permalink
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Hm I'm probably not the best person to ask for individual LT highlights that stand out because I could throw a few dozen out...personal fave is probably turning Ty Law into dust, in open space. The man sat down on the field.




Some good ones up there. LT was a cutback runner so he left a wholllle bunch of people staring at nothing, that little sideways hop step he could pull off without losing forward momentum...insane. Plus his stiff arm was sick. All contributed to some amazing looking runs.

as for playoffs, I donno, I think it's not so much a factor for RBs because there are just so very many phenomenal players at that position who didn't achieve much postseason success.
He stole that hopstep from Fred Taylor :P
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Old 02-24-2010, 12:30 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Bengalsrocket View Post
Barry Sanders made the play offs like 5 times in his career and the team only won 1 or 2 of those games. Doesn't he fall into the same category as Tomlinson for lack of "career defining games"?
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Originally Posted by njx9 View Post
the fact that barry played on a **** team likely plays a role. not that the chargers were all world every year for ldt but:

Tomlinson

5-11
8-8
4-12
12-4
9-7
14-2
11-5
8-8
13-3

84-60
58.3%

Sanders

7-9
6-10
12-4
5-11
10-6
9-7
10-6
5-11
9-7
5-11

78-82
48.7%

further, it seems silly to suggest barry doesn't have career defining games. i can remember at least ten distinct sanders RUNS, let alone games, that could define his career. i can't remember any for tomlinson. which isn't to say he wasn't a fantastic player. but that we're talking about arguably the all-time best player vs. a top5-10 guy. *shrug*

sanders was a 6 time first team all-pro (to LDT's 3), averaged over 5ypc 5 times (LDT did that once), had the 'magic' 2000 yard season, and led the league in rushing on four occasions, in spite of playing alongside better running backs, while LDT only did it twice.

which isn't to say stats are everything in the argument. simply that LDT falls short in nearly every visible category for comparison (and, imo, every category involving watching the two players, though your miles may vary). thus, he'd need something else to join that 'arguably the best ever' group. and he doesn't have anything else.

*shrug* again, nothing against LDT. i tend to agree with bbd's assessment is all.

This^

No running back outside perhaps Jim Brown carried his team more than Barry Sanders. You may have heard me say in the past how his vision is extremely overrated as a back (it was), but that doesn't discount how great he was.

I mean, come on, he played for Detroit.

Detroit.

The only reason why they were half decent then was bc he was on the team. He eventually retired in disgust bc he knew he'd probably shatter every record if he played for a good team.
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