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Old 07-23-2012, 03:22 PM    (permalink
BloodBrother
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Bonds should be in the HOF not only for being great at baseball(pre steroid use), but he should get in because that dude MASTERED the use of steroids as well

nobody maximized their real talent + steroid use like Bonds did.
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Old 07-23-2012, 03:22 PM    (permalink
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I have nothing against Rose. He should be in the HOF. He's just not better than Bonds was, even pre-roid use. Bonds brought more to the table than Rose ever did.



They do, doesn't necessarily mean it will make them better.
so if a player possesses the intangibles like Bonds and Clements already do, they would do nothing if it makes them stronger?
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Old 07-23-2012, 03:24 PM    (permalink
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I hate Barry Bonds as much as the next guy, but it's a shame that he used steroids. The guy might have been a top-10 player all time even without steroid.
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Brilliant letting one of Scott Pioli's henchmen have his own team to ruin.  One of the premier GM jobs in the NFL and it gets handed to a stupid **** who makes three facepalm moves for every good one.  Awesome.  Just like handing a new Mercedes to a 16 year old girl who's already been in three wrecks. 
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Old 07-23-2012, 03:27 PM    (permalink
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so if a player possesses the intangibles like Bonds and Clements already do, they would do nothing if it makes them stronger?
What intangibles are you speaking of here?
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Old 07-23-2012, 03:28 PM    (permalink
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Hey, at least Bengals isn't making an argument for Joe Morgan. Now there's probably the biggest a-hole in baseball.
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Old 07-23-2012, 03:29 PM    (permalink
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What intangibles are you speaking of here?
Patience, discipline, eye at the plate.

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Hey, at least Bengals isn't making an argument for Joe Morgan. Now there's probably the biggest a-hole in baseball.
I hate Joe. Ive met him. Not a nice man.
Same with Johnny Bench.
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Old 07-23-2012, 03:29 PM    (permalink
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I hate Barry Bonds as much as the next guy, but it's a shame that he used steroids. The guy might have been a top-10 player all time even without steroid.
I dislike him probably more than the next guy, but there's no doubt in my mind Bonds would have been top 10 without steroids. He was basically had the Willie Mays all around skill set, except better in most areas.
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Old 07-23-2012, 03:30 PM    (permalink
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I love Mac, but comparing him to Barry ******* Bonds is idiotic at best.
Is that why Barry Bonds got so butthurt by how well McGwire was hitting that he decided to take HGH and steroids? That Napoleon complex only works if you see yourself less than someone else--and clearly Bonds thought of himself as less than McGwire.

Yes, Barry Bonds ended up with better numbers. Yes, Barry Bonds was a better player than Mark McGwire, but if we are talking about players who should NEVER EVER be overlooked to get into the Hall of Fame, Mark McGwire is right up there with any of them.

Mark McGwire is right there with Jimmie Foxx in career wRC+. There are exactly 12 players with a career wRC+ that is higher than McGwire's. Mark McGwire with 7660 PAs is the only player in the 500 HR club with less than 9660 PAs to his name.

In the history of MLB, no player has a better HR/PA ratio than McGwire.

Again, you are right. McGwire isn't Barry Bonds. Bonds could run. Bonds could field. Bonds hit for a better average.

But that doesn't mean there shouldn't be an uproar that McGwire isn't in the HOF.
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Old 07-23-2012, 03:33 PM    (permalink
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Patience, discipline, eye at the plate.



I hate Joe. Ive met him. Not a nice man.
Same with Johnny Bench.
It's bad when I almost would rather listen to Hawk Harrelson than Joe Morgan. Hawk may be annoying and a borderline ruhtard with most of his comments, but at least he doesn't find away in every conversation to criticize another player and bring up how much better he was.

Also, I really hope those rumors are true for Dempster and Delgado. All day Theo circle jerk at my place if they come true!
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Old 07-23-2012, 03:33 PM    (permalink
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Bonds should be in the HOF not only for being great at baseball(pre steroid use), but he should get in because that dude MASTERED the use of steroids as well

nobody maximized their real talent + steroid use like Bonds did.
I absolutely agree that Bonds mastered the art of maximizing his talent with steroid use. At the same time, it's kind of difficult to enshrine someone for their ability to cheat the best--considering it's against the rules and the law.

But on the other hand, how many legends are there of HOF pitchers who were masters at doctoring the ball...

Eh... sports are all about gamesmanship I guess. Not that I agree with it, but the precedent has been set.

What the heck, go for it. Enshrine Bonds as a player and contributor to the game for his mastery of PEDs.
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Old 07-23-2012, 03:37 PM    (permalink
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I think people are just taking it the wrong way when Brodeur and I say that people arent nearly as good as Bonds. We're not saying the other guys are bad or anything like that, just that Bonds was insanely amazing.

Pete Rose and Mark McGwire were awesome. I just dont consider them to be top 5 all time as I do with Bonds.
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Old 07-23-2012, 03:37 PM    (permalink
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It's bad when I almost would rather listen to Hawk Harrelson than Joe Morgan. Hawk may be annoying and a borderline ruhtard with most of his comments, but at least he doesn't find away in every conversation to criticize another player and bring up how much better he was.

Also, I really hope those rumors are true for Dempster and Delgado. All day Theo circle jerk at my place if they come true!
He wasn't pleasant to be around. Dismissed everyone as unworthy at times.
It must kill him to see a talented 2B like Brandon Phillips besting him
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Old 07-23-2012, 03:38 PM    (permalink
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Patience, discipline, eye at the plate.
If they already have all of that, they likely would become great players, or at least they should with that skillset. The roid use would just help them sustain their elite level of play for a longer period of time + not have the aches and pains that most players go through during a long season year after year.

More often than not though, we see guys who are marginal talents who are pressured into taking it in hopes of improving their play....in hopes of them being able to make good money/get that long term contract
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Old 07-23-2012, 03:41 PM    (permalink
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I absolutely agree that Bonds mastered the art of maximizing his talent with steroid use. At the same time, it's kind of difficult to enshrine someone for their ability to cheat the best--considering it's against the rules and the law.

But on the other hand, how many legends are there of HOF pitchers who were masters at doctoring the ball...

Eh... sports are all about gamesmanship I guess. Not that I agree with it, but the precedent has been set.

What the heck, go for it. Enshrine Bonds as a player and contributor to the game for his mastery of PEDs.
This is the thing. Each era had guys doing things to gain an advantage. When Bonds was taking roids, it was during what is now dubbed as the "steroid era"

we'll never know how many opposing pitchers he faced who were juicing as well. In the end, I think most if not all of these guys will get into the HOF...but it will be quite awhile. Hell, some of them might already be dead by the time they are enshrined
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Old 07-23-2012, 03:42 PM    (permalink
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I dislike him probably more than the next guy, but there's no doubt in my mind Bonds would have been top 10 without steroids. He was basically had the Willie Mays all around skill set, except better in most areas.
Top 10 yes but not in Mays class as a player. Probably a good comparison for Bonds without steroids would be Ken Griffey. Similar players to me.
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Old 07-23-2012, 03:44 PM    (permalink
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Top 10 yes but not in Mays class as a player. Probably a good comparison for Bonds without steroids would be Ken Griffey. Similar players to me.
Bonds got on base way more than Junior
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Old 07-23-2012, 03:45 PM    (permalink
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McGwire was a 1 trick pony and that 1 trick was greatly enhanced by the steroids he took. Bonds was a great all around player in every facet of the game.
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Old 07-23-2012, 03:46 PM    (permalink
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What's funny was MLB was just waiting for A-rod to break all of those records to wipe their hands clean of this steroid mess, only for him to get busted

I think it's also naive to think that Pujols has been clean his whole career as well
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Old 07-23-2012, 03:47 PM    (permalink
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Bonds got on base way more than Junior
Junior had a better smile, though
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Old 07-23-2012, 03:48 PM    (permalink
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Bonds got on base way more than Junior
I love Griffey but Bonds OBP even before steroids were insane. Always had that great eye at the plate.
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Old 07-23-2012, 03:49 PM    (permalink
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Junior had a better smile, though
And could wear a hat backwards like nobody else could.
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Old 07-23-2012, 03:54 PM    (permalink
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Junior was 100x cooler than anyone else in MLB.
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Old 07-23-2012, 03:55 PM    (permalink
comahan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Giantsfan1080 View Post
I love Griffey but Bonds OBP even before steroids were insane. Always had that great eye at the plate.
Yea, i mean, his AVERAGE line from 1990-96 was

.308/.436/.601, 36 HR, 110 RBI, 30 2B, 4 3B, 72 K, 114 BB, 38 SB

Thats absolutely absurd. Flirting with 40/40 every season while getting on base at a 436 clip and playing elite defense. So good.

Also, thats including the 94 season where he had 37 HR and 29 SB in 112 games.
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Old 07-23-2012, 03:58 PM    (permalink
Forenci
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The one player I would be devastated by if it was ever found out he took roids is Griff. Bonds is a douche bag and can suck it. I don't care about him.

Griff is such a baller though.
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Old 07-23-2012, 03:59 PM    (permalink
Brodeur
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McGwire was a 1 trick pony and that 1 trick was greatly enhanced by the steroids he took. Bonds was a great all around player in every facet of the game.
He had natural power, regardless of the roids. You should know better than to use roids as an argument, I expect more.
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