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Old 05-21-2012, 10:17 PM    (permalink
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That defense...
We knew it would suck.
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Old 05-21-2012, 10:23 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Brodeur View Post
No they won't. Pittsburgh has much worse issues and they get better attendance figures than that.
http://boston.redsox.mlb.com/news/pr...=.jsp&c_id=bos

Previously held by the Indians.

Yeah, Cleveland fans are so awful.
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Old 05-21-2012, 10:28 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Brodeur View Post
No they won't. Pittsburgh has much worse issues and they get better attendance figures than that.
Yeah, they will. It doesn't happen in 25% of one season. Especially because the same thing happened last season and they finished well out of the playoff race.

I'm annoyed by it, and if I lived in Ohio still I would definitely go (I watch the Indians play the Twins at least once a season), but it is what it is. We don't have an ownership group willing to invest huge amounts of money into the team.

Chris Perez is correct, however, in that it's not the lack of fans so much as it is the ones who boo. How the **** you could boo Chris Perez if you're an Indians fan I have no idea.
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Old 05-21-2012, 10:31 PM    (permalink
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They were like 17th the year they went to the ALCS, so it's not like they bring in massive numbers then either.
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Old 05-21-2012, 10:36 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Brodeur View Post
They were like 17th the year they went to the ALCS, so it's not like they bring in massive numbers then either.
Nobody is saying they are great fans, but they won't always be at the bottom. It's a combination of:

1) The Browns came back, and Cleveland is a Browns town (for whatever stupid reason since that organization couldn't find it's asshole with a map)

2) There is still a lot of resentment over the fact that all of the stars from the 90s (Manny Ramirez, Jim Thome, etc) were allowed to leave. People loved those 90s Indians so much, and they should have won at least one World Series, so it was a blow when the team was split up. A lot of people have never gotten over that.

Also, Jacobs Field was brand new in the 90s. It's still a great stadium, but it's been surpassed.
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Old 05-21-2012, 10:42 PM    (permalink
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How the **** you could boo Chris Perez if you're an Indians fan I have no idea.
it's been 16 innings this year, don't jump on the perez bandwagon just yet; he has pitched better this year than last in that timeframe that is roughly three average starts worth of innings (xFIP is 4.00 this year vs. 5.01 last year), but as far as i'm concerned it is only a matter of time before he starts his descent into mediocrity. i mean yeah, he has generally had a great ERA from year to year, but i trust the lack of sustainability suggested by his piss-poor K/BB/FB% rates; i do think he will strike out more guys this year than last which was terrible for a supposed 'closer', but at some point he is going to give up a homerun when his ground ball rate is below 40%.

also, how does a guy who has pitched 4% of his team's innings speak out on behalf of the rest of his team in regards to overall attendance? he is barely a factor, and is fortunate that saves still have such a masturbatory quality. if he keeps his strikeout rate up maybe he can continue to pass as a closer, but coming off last year it was a wonder that he even beat out pestano for the job.

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Old 05-21-2012, 10:43 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Brodeur View Post
They were like 17th the year they went to the ALCS, so it's not like they bring in massive numbers then either.
They also started that year with no expectations and turned it around and ended up selling out or having close to sell outs every game towards the second half of the season, which is what will happen if were in first going into the all star break.
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Old 05-21-2012, 10:45 PM    (permalink
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it's been 16 innings this year, don't jump on the perez bandwagon just yet; he has pitched better this year than last (xFIP is 4.00 this year vs. 5.01 last year), but as far as i'm concerned it is only a matter of time before he starts his descent into mediocrity. i mean yeah, he has generally had a great ERA from year to year, but i trust the lack of sustainability suggested by his piss-poor K/BB/FB% rates; i do think he will strike out more guys this year than last which was terrible for a supposed 'closer', but at some point he is going to give up a homerun when his ground ball rate is below 40%.

also, how does a guy who has pitched 4% of his team's innings speak out on behalf of the rest of his team in regards to overall attendance? he is barely a factor, and is fortunate that saves have such a masturbatory quality.
Yeah, I don't think he's Mariano Rivera or anything, but he's not booable by any means.
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Old 05-21-2012, 10:55 PM    (permalink
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Yeah, I don't think he's Mariano Rivera or anything, but he's not booable by any means.
the problem was that he blew the first game of the year, when people were actually watching. and honestly, calling out your team's fans for booing isn't going to make them boo less, if anything i would boo him even harder for his perceived sense of entitlement as a coddled crybaby millionaire. he has every right to speak out, regardless of how much money he makes relative to how little he contributes, but in doing so he should probably understand he will get little sympathy. as much as i think it is stupid to adhere to some policy of always being politically correct or whatever, that doesn't make what he said any less counterproductive, that is, if there was any point to what he said in the first place.

if you want more fans to come to games, you can start by bitching to the owner about charging 10 dollars for beer or 7 dollars for a hot dog and not the fans who are stupid enough to watch you throw a ball around for three hours.

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Old 05-21-2012, 10:59 PM    (permalink
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He's not asking for sympathy, he's asking for fan support. Indians fans are insanely negative as if they are waiting for something bad to happen. That's nice that you have fancy stats that indicate he's probably getting a little lucky so far, but people could at least wait until that regression comes before they start booing him (and everyone else).

I don't think the problem with Cleveland fans is apathy (although there is some of that here too), but they are a huge group of bitchers. Which, again, they should direct most of that angst to the Browns and Cavs, both of which have been far stupider with far more resources.
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Old 05-21-2012, 11:01 PM    (permalink
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So which was a more "oh ****!" moment. Moose Tacos HIGH off the foul pole or Ortiz bombing one onto Utah Street?
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Old 05-21-2012, 11:14 PM    (permalink
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He's not asking for sympathy, he's asking for fan support. Indians fans are insanely negative as if they are waiting for something bad to happen. That's nice that you have fancy stats that indicate he's probably getting a little lucky so far, but people could at least wait until that regression comes before they start booing him (and everyone else).

I don't think the problem with Cleveland fans is apathy (although there is some of that here too), but they are a huge group of bitchers. Which, again, they should direct most of that angst to the Browns and Cavs, both of which have been far stupider with far more resources.
on the topic of money, when gas is over $3.50 a gallon, it costs $10 to park, and you have to pay $10 for a ****** cheap beer that somehow gets smaller and smaller every year, why would you feel entitled to have people come watch you. maybe it is less pronounced in other cities, but cleveland isn't exactly a booming metropolis, it is essentially a suburban sprawl surrounding a centralized urban population that isn't going to be attending many games (i don't think i need to explain that point).

those that live in the gentrified parts of cleveland proper are probably responsible for a lot of the people who actually do go to games, but how many of those people are seriously going to go to more than a dozen games a year? the city itself is under 400k in population now (and again, that population is predominantly not the 'demographic' that the MLB is targeting when their prices are so inflated; if they claim otherwise they are lying because families living in these communities can definitely not afford to be spending 50-100 dollars for three hours of entertainment), so it simply isn't feasible to suddenly expect all these people to drive 20-30 minutes to watch games very frequently, especially during the week. it is one thing to go to eight browns games, on sundays. it is entirely different to drive to see the indians play on a wednesday night when there are 81 home games.

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Old 05-21-2012, 11:21 PM    (permalink
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It's gonna be funny to watch them start selling out and see Perez blow a save and everyone just shower boos down at him.
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Old 05-21-2012, 11:23 PM    (permalink
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It's gonna be funny to watch them start selling out and see Perez blow a save and everyone just shower boos down at him.
from the looks of it that would be a much-needed shower
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Old 05-21-2012, 11:32 PM    (permalink
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on the topic of money, when gas is over $3.50 a gallon, it costs $10 to park, and you have to pay $10 for a ****** cheap beer that somehow gets smaller and smaller every year, why would you feel entitled to have people come watch you. maybe it is less pronounced in other cities, but cleveland isn't exactly a booming metropolis, it is essentially a suburban sprawl surrounding a centralized urban population that isn't going to be attending many games (i don't think i need to explain that point).

those that live in the gentrified parts of cleveland proper are probably responsible for a lot of the people who actually do go to games, but how many of those people are seriously going to go to more than a dozen games a year? the city itself is under 400k in population now (and again, that population is predominantly not the 'demographic' that the MLB is targeting when their prices are so inflated; if they claim otherwise they are lying because families living in these communities can definitely not afford to be spending 50-100 dollars for three hours of entertainment), so it simply isn't feasible to suddenly expect all these people to drive 20-30 minutes to watch games very frequently, especially during the week. it is one thing to go to eight browns games, on sundays. it is entirely different to drive to see the indians play on a wednesday night when there are 81 home games.
It costs like 5-10 dollars to see the Indians play. I'm not sure where you get 50-100 dollars even if you're assuming that everyone has to park near the stadium and drink a beer. Also, even if 1/3 of the Cleveland/Akron metro went to two games a year, that would be 2 million visits, divide that by 81, add in the people rich enough to easily afford season tickets, and you have a capacity house every night. The issue is not money, it's simply people waiting to jump on the bandwaggon.

But in any event, of course people have the right to not give a ****, or just sit at home and watch the game on TV. So what?

I guess I just don't see what your point is. Professional athletes are entitled and out of touch? You don't say?
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Old 05-21-2012, 11:41 PM    (permalink
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Attendance is an issue in Cincy somewhat. We dont sell out because we had a decade of sheer incompetence, had our farm system raped etc...no home grown big name players.

Attendance is picking up but Cincinnati being the city it is, wont ever start any big sell out streaks. Just wont happen.
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Old 05-21-2012, 11:43 PM    (permalink
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The issue isn't money?

If I weren't at college and were home, I would have to justify driving to the game 20+ minutes out, find a parking space get food either at a restaurant or decide to eat before hand. If I feel like drinking the beer at the game is $8, or if I feel like eating/drinking beforehand and its $15-$20.

Then there is the ticket, and the time you spend sitting there on your ass pounding beers if the team sucks that given day.

When the team proves it can win over and over, they will see the price tag as more worth it than it is right now.
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Old 05-21-2012, 11:46 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by bearsfan_51 View Post
It costs like 5-10 dollars to see the Indians play. I'm not sure where you get 50-100 dollars even if you're assuming that everyone has to park near the stadium and drink a beer. Also, even if 1/3 of the Cleveland/Akron metro went to two games a year, that would be 6 million visits, divide that by 81 and you have a sold-out house every night. The issue is not money, it's simply people waiting to jump on the bandwaggon.

But in any event, of course people have the right to not give a ****, or just sit at home and watch the game on TV. So what?

I guess I just don't see what your point is. Professional athletes are entitled and out of touch? You don't say?
you completely missed the part where i said 'family'; if a family of four living in the city of cleveland wants to see a game, they are minimum paying around $40 dollars (more if they are parking, but this is a family in cleveland proper, so they can take the RTA or walk or something which the cost i will ignore), and in that scenario you are assuming that they aren't buying their kids cotton candy or any other ********. you fail to see the point that few of these impoverished families are going to be shelling out that money more than a couple times a year, if at all when (speaking somewhat stereotypically here, but let's be real) they would be much more entertained at an NFL and NBA game.

i mean, i don't know if you are unfamiliar with cleveland logistically, but it's pretty clear that the fans they can expect to draw when they charge $7 for a hot dog will have to drive 20 to 30 minutes to get to the stadium and park, and gas is not really a negligible expense for most people. i don't know where you are assuming this figure of 33% of the Cleveland/Akron area going to 2 games a year, when for all you or I know, most of these people don't give a **** about the MLB, so it is foolish to speak in terms of general populations of a region...

they drew over 20k on sunday, they draw half of that on weekdays; it is pretty obvious that the few people who go to games from the city are those younger people living in places like tremont or ohio city where people may have more interest in the event and money to waste, but cleveland isn't the best location to support a baseball team anymore when their fanbase is moving in a ring steadily away from the downtown area. you ******** on the team's fans because of some perceived bandwagon theory doesn't change that.

i don't know why i'm even typing this out, you have proven you won't actually read what i am saying, nor do you care to.

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Old 05-21-2012, 11:46 PM    (permalink
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Any type of social gathering is going to cost money. You are adding **** like going out to eat and drinking a bunch. That costs money no matter what you do.

My god, people. What do you do when you go out? I'm cheap as ****, but I still plan on spending at least 50 bucks to do damn near anything.
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Old 05-21-2012, 11:49 PM    (permalink
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you ******** on the team's fans because of some perceived bandwagon theory doesn't change that.
I'm a ******* Indians fan dummy.

But please explain to me how they aren't bandwaggon supporters. Cleveland fans will support the Browns no matter how ****** and awful they are. They won't do the same for the Indians or the Cavs. That has almost nothing to do with money and everything to do with fan support and apathy. Certain fan bases will support a team when they are good or bad. Indians fans hedge their bets. That is the definition of bandwaggon support.

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When the team proves it can win over and over, they will see the price tag as more worth it than it is right now.
Exhibit A. And that's totally fine. But it is what it is, don't act like it's not.
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Old 05-21-2012, 11:51 PM    (permalink
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I dont think I have ever bought a stadium beer.
Im too rational to be able to legitimize 8 dollars for 12oz of something I could spend 16 dollars on for roughly 300oz of the same thing.

I went to Reds/Nats game last weekend. AMAZING time.
My dad and I took my mom for Mother's Day. So we splurged on tickets. $75 for the tickets, got a Joey Votto Bobblehead for her, plus the seats were in the All-You-Can-Eat section. So endless food and soft drinks for 3 people at the game for 235 bucks including parking.

Expensive? Yeah, I wouldnt buy those seats every game I go to, but was definitely worth it.
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Old 05-21-2012, 11:52 PM    (permalink
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Any type of social gathering is going to cost money. You are adding **** like going out to eat and drinking a bunch. That costs money no matter what you do.

My god, people. What do you do when you go out? I'm cheap as ****, but I still plan on spending at least 50 bucks to do damn near anything.
And this is why I buy a case of beer and start fires in my back yard on the weekend lol
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Old 05-22-2012, 12:05 AM    (permalink
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But please explain to me how they aren't bandwaggon supporters. Cleveland fans will support the Browns no matter how ****** and awful they are. They won't do the same for the Indians or the Cavs. That has almost nothing to do with money and everything to do with fan support and apathy. Certain fan bases will support a team when they are good or bad. Indians fans hedge their bets. That is the definition of bandwaggon support.
i never said there aren't fair weather fans. if I lived 10 minutes away from the stadium, it would be easy for me to get up and drive to a game to watch a .500 team, but increasing the cost of doing so exponentially makes it not worth the hassle, and they play so many games that there is in general an inherent diminishing return.

the browns play 8 home games, all on weekends (except for the rare thursday or monday night games but it is obvious that there is a difference between a thursday night football game and a thursday night baseball game). i don't think the issue is as black and white as you are making it out to be, people can be 'fans' without being thrust into some fair-weather/bandwagon category. and it is easier to continue supporting a **** franchise on a daily basis when there are fewer constraints preventing you from doing so.

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Old 05-22-2012, 12:17 AM    (permalink
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I'm a ******* Indians fan dummy.

But please explain to me how they aren't bandwaggon supporters. Cleveland fans will support the Browns no matter how ****** and awful they are. They won't do the same for the Indians or the Cavs. That has almost nothing to do with money and everything to do with fan support and apathy. Certain fan bases will support a team when they are good or bad. Indians fans hedge their bets. That is the definition of bandwaggon support.



Exhibit A. And that's totally fine. But it is what it is, don't act like it's not.
I wouldn't call it bandwagon as much as not being completely idiotic. If I am not going to have fun going to a baseball game, I am not going to go, plain and simple. I just want to see what happens with attendance in June/July when the Middle/High Schoolers get let out and families have more time on their hands to go to games as well as the students from OSU and OU return home that were raised in the 90's as huge Indians fans.

I'm guessing you will see attendance average around 20k on weekdays if they keep up the play and 30k on weekends... Now if our ******* idiot owner decided to shell out some money once and a while and create some excitement before the season starts, then maybe this wouldn't be an issue.


Also, Browns games are a complete different culture, if you go to Cleveland sporting events you would know that. The tailgating is insane and its just one big party every time for the most part, and the team only plays at home 8 times a year compared to 81.

On the other hand, when the team shows promise, that same Browns atmosphere comes out. Sure people may not have been going the entire year to the games, but most people follow the team and watch them when at home or with friends, at least the people I know and see around campus.
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Old 05-22-2012, 12:30 AM    (permalink
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i never said there aren't fair weather fans. if I lived 10 minutes away from the stadium, it would be easy for me to get up and drive to a game to watch a .500 team, but increasing the cost of doing so exponentially makes it not worth the hassle, and they play so many games that there is in general an inherent diminishing return.

the browns play 8 home games, all on weekends (except for the rare thursday or monday night games but it is obvious that there is a difference between a thursday night football game and a thursday night baseball game). i don't think the issue is as black and white as you are making it out to be, people can be 'fans' without being thrust into some fair-weather/bandwagon category. and it is easier to continue supporting a **** franchise on a daily basis when there are fewer constraints preventing you from doing so.
There are many baseball towns that support their teams win or lose. It's not simply a matter of baseball vs. football.

Also, even if you want to get into the issue of relatives. Indians fans are relatively some of the worst in baseball. A lot of cities deal with the same issues that Cleveland does, and have far more support than Cleveland gives the Indians.

At first I was sticking up for Indians fans, but you've gone too far that it necessitates correction. Most fan bases deal with the same constraints, and don't have nearly the attendance issues that the Indians do.
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