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Old 12-09-2010, 01:10 PM    (permalink
D-Unit
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Originally Posted by Morton View Post
The problem is that you don't spend top 5 money on a S, or at least, you'd RATHER spend top 5 money on a CB than a S.

I think the Cowboys would be best served to go after a guy like DeAndre McDaniel or Mark Barron in later rounds to fix the free safety hole on the roster.
No. That's the OLD SCHOOL train of thought. These are new times. This ain't your grandpappy's NFL football anymore. The new rules have allowed the league to become a pass happy, high scoring affair. In order to combat that, elite defenses are no longer looking for Safeties that operate like extra linebackers. You used to see LBs making transitions to Ss. Not no more. Now days, it's more common to see CBs moving to S. Reason is because teams want every player in the secondary to have stronger coverage skills. Safties are now needing to be just as good in coverage as Corners. Anything less is asking for trouble. Teams that realize this more quickly will succeed faster in this league.

If you think old rules still work, then you need to wake up and look around at the new world around you. Safeties are worth high picks... and they will be paid like Corners as soon as the league catches up to the new trend.

Oh and Eric Berry who was picked in the Top 3 says Hi.
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Old 12-09-2010, 04:26 PM    (permalink
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No. Playing Alan Ball and Gerald Sensabaugh at Safety next year would be a stupid decision.

Peterson at Safety is not a foreign or strange projection. Who's to say he wouldn't be a better safety than he would be at corner? He's had questionable moments at cornerback this season. Bottom line... play him where he would excel most. CB or S. Saying he HAS TO be a corner is too closed minded.

Putting Peterson at Safety has nothing to do with Ball & Sensy who need replaced one way or another. I don't care if it's AOA, a 2nd round pick, FA, whatever. Your right, who is to say he's a better CB then Safety, my thing is, why would you take a guy with a top 5 pick to change his positions immediately? Now I'm not talking moving a RT to LT, DE to DT, CB and FS are truly two different positions.


If you take him that high, it makes the most sense to play him at CB, and if he's not elite then put him at FS. What happens if you draft him at FS, and after a year or 2 he's solid, nothing spectacular but a solid player. Then do you try and put him back at CB after all that time to hope he becomes elite?


I think the consensus is that he'll be a good Safety, or at least can be good one. I think most feel he has potential to be an elite CB with his size, speed, strength and intangibles, I don't see why we'd draft him that high and try something brand new.


I don't think he HAS to be a CB, but I do think he should start out playing CB and be drafted as one.
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I guarantee that if someone picks Cam Newton in the Top 5 they will regret it.
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Old 12-09-2010, 04:29 PM    (permalink
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Besides that, in the 2nd round we'd have pick of the litter of the safeties at our pick probably as one won't go in the 1st round. Now I do like some CB's in the range, specifically Jimmy Smith if he's there, but I don't like the idea of moving a guy to a new spot that high. It's alot of money invested to just *assume* the transition goes smoothly when he has never played there before.
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I guarantee that if someone picks Cam Newton in the Top 5 they will regret it.
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Old 12-09-2010, 05:44 PM    (permalink
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Like Kenny Rogers said... You gotta know when to fold 'em, know when to hold 'em. No when to walk away, know when to run... We basically fought to win games in a meaningless season. Instead of being in better position to rebuild our team for next year and restart our effort, we basically shot ourselves in the foot. Not just for the draft in ruining our draft position, but also in next year's schedule. It'll be harder now, the more we keep winning. This is why some teams... especially US... year after year get stuck doing the same thing over and over again floating between 8-8 and 12-3 records with no championship to show for it. I understand the team on the field wants to win, and they're playing for their jobs, so that's that... but it's almost better if we suck for a season. We already know our team is more talented than our record shows. That just makes us an even more perfect candidate to tank. We can bounce back quicker. Losing Romo to injury was perfect. But we've now botched that. Jerry obviously doesn't have a clue. He should've kept Wade for the rest of the season and took the loses. Then give Garrett the HC job next season. The turnaround would've been miraculous! We can already see how Garrett's changes are positive. Now get us high picks in each round and an easy schedule and BOOM. We're back better than ever!

Look at the last 3 winners... Giants, Steelers, Saints... Not too long ago, they were all picking high in the draft. Giants took Eli, Steelers took Ben and the Saints nabbed Reggie. All key pieces towards their SB runs. Along with the picks they made at the top of each round. Ask them if it was worth being bad for a season to rebuild. They were all just like us. Better on paper than their record showed. They folded their cards correctly, tanked their season's and came back stronger than ever.

We'll keep floating around in mediocrity. But hey... IT'S POSSIBLE to hit on a player when you're picking outside of the top 10! LOL. How short sighted is that? Are drafts just 1 round these days? There is an added benefit of picking high in EVERY round. There is an added benefit of having an easy schedule. Going to the playoffs last year was great. But the tough schedule it got us, kicked us in the nards. We EVEN had limitations on how we could approach FA!!! It's much better to lose for 1 season and come back strong the next, than try to win meaningless games that do NOTHING... and say the reward is preventing a losing culture. A losing culture is built over several losing seasons. Not just 1. Losing this year wouldn't have put us in the category of the Lions... losing EVERY YEAR...

LOL@preventing a losing culture from starting by winning meaningless games.

/rant
You cannot be serious can you? Talent hasnt been the issue. The draft isnt the reason we are where are right now. Accountability, entitlement, and competitiveness within the roster. I love the fact that Wade was fired because we now have our HC. A high pick would've been nice but the only true franchise changing talent was Andrew Luck. This is a great time to evaluate what we have and looking into the future we're starting to see bright spots with Dez, Sean Lee, Brian McCann, and others. I for won am not going to root for my team to lose. Every game is an oppurtunity to get better and i'm glad our team is taking full advantage of it.
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Old 12-09-2010, 06:16 PM    (permalink
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With the way the Refs are calling things and the fines on big hits, Safety might just have become the most important position on the field until some DCs and some hot Talent redefined how the position is played and more quality safeties are produced in College.

Saying goes CB or WRs who can't catch and Safeties are CB who can't cover .... I can see a D Model where the safeties are the fastest guys on the field playing Rovers while the rest of the D is in zone playing space. Can't do that with Roy Williams type safeties.

Anyway, so spending a top 5 on a Safety with instincts and ball skills is quite worth it if you play a zone scheme with your CB and LBers.
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Old 12-09-2010, 06:37 PM    (permalink
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Besides that, in the 2nd round we'd have pick of the litter of the safeties at our pick probably as one won't go in the 1st round. Now I do like some CB's in the range, specifically Jimmy Smith if he's there, but I don't like the idea of moving a guy to a new spot that high. It's alot of money invested to just *assume* the transition goes smoothly when he has never played there before.
Jimmy Smith is a cornerback at Colorado. LMAO. You just contradicted your whole train of thought about moving Peterson to S.

Anyways, I have no problems drafting him as a CB. None. Newman is old and gets beat way to much these days. But how are you going to know that he won't be a better NFL S if you don't play him there? Seriously... if our scouts and coaches decide that they project him to be a better S, then I'm all for supporting whatever they decide to do. But the fact is, we've played ourselves out of getting him without trading up.
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Old 12-09-2010, 06:41 PM    (permalink
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You cannot be serious can you? Talent hasnt been the issue. The draft isnt the reason we are where are right now. Accountability, entitlement, and competitiveness within the roster. I love the fact that Wade was fired because we now have our HC. A high pick would've been nice but the only true franchise changing talent was Andrew Luck. This is a great time to evaluate what we have and looking into the future we're starting to see bright spots with Dez, Sean Lee, Brian McCann, and others. I for won am not going to root for my team to lose. Every game is an oppurtunity to get better and i'm glad our team is taking full advantage of it.
This tells me all I need to know about why we disagree. ...and we'll just have to agree to disagree. I think the talent in our secondary is one of the worst in the NFL. I think the talent along our OL has been overrated for years. Davis is slow and imobile. Kosier is always hurt. Colombo hasn't been the same since injuring himself last year. ..and Gurode can't even snap the ball cleanly anymore.

But apparently you think talent isn't an issue and that we should've been going to the SB this year because the only thing holding us back was Wade. Um ok. Gotcha. I agree to dis-a-greeeeeee.
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Old 12-09-2010, 06:42 PM    (permalink
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With the way the Refs are calling things and the fines on big hits, Safety might just have become the most important position on the field until some DCs and some hot Talent redefined how the position is played and more quality safeties are produced in College.

Saying goes CB or WRs who can't catch and Safeties are CB who can't cover .... I can see a D Model where the safeties are the fastest guys on the field playing Rovers while the rest of the D is in zone playing space. Can't do that with Roy Williams type safeties.

Anyway, so spending a top 5 on a Safety with instincts and ball skills is quite worth it if you play a zone scheme with your CB and LBers.
At least some of us have a sense of what's important. +rep.
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Old 12-09-2010, 07:23 PM    (permalink
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This tells me all I need to know about why we disagree. ...and we'll just have to agree to disagree. I think the talent in our secondary is one of the worst in the NFL. I think the talent along our OL has been overrated for years. Davis is slow and imobile. Kosier is always hurt. Colombo hasn't been the same since injuring himself last year. ..and Gurode can't even snap the ball cleanly anymore.

But apparently you think talent isn't an issue and that we should've been going to the SB this year because the only thing holding us back was Wade. Um ok. Gotcha. I agree to dis-a-greeeeeee.
Nope much more than Wade. Entitlement and lack of accountability from top down. Starts with the owner 1st and foremost. With competition within the roster comes development of players. This still remains the only team where depth chart is set in april. Why it takes injuries for us to discover guys like Miles Austin, Doug Free, and Tashard Choice is a major concern. My guess is meddling from the man writing the checks. We have teams that have had superbowl talent. Last year I thought we were the best team in the league at the end of the season. In 07 I still believe we would've won that game had Wade been calling the defensive plays instead of deferring to Brian Stewart.

Now onto the secondary. IMO we have a fundamental difference when it comes to how to play defense. IMO you can attribute much of the secondaries decline this year to the decline in the front 7. We definitely are not lacking in talent. I've seen worse secondaries win rings i.e the Giants of 07 and the patchwork secondaries Belichek put together. I dont care who you are if you dont get pressure on the qb at this level the secondary will look bad. The only player in our secondary who is below average is Alan Ball. I believe a big part of our pass defense being poor is pass rush and terrible range in coverage by both our inside linebackers.
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Old 12-09-2010, 07:56 PM    (permalink
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Nope much more than Wade. Entitlement and lack of accountability from top down. Starts with the owner 1st and foremost. With competition within the roster comes development of players. This still remains the only team where depth chart is set in april. Why it takes injuries for us to discover guys like Miles Austin, Doug Free, and Tashard Choice is a major concern. My guess is meddling from the man writing the checks. We have teams that have had superbowl talent. Last year I thought we were the best team in the league at the end of the season. In 07 I still believe we would've won that game had Wade been calling the defensive plays instead of deferring to Brian Stewart.

Now onto the secondary. IMO we have a fundamental difference when it comes to how to play defense. IMO you can attribute much of the secondaries decline this year to the decline in the front 7. We definitely are not lacking in talent. I've seen worse secondaries win rings i.e the Giants of 07 and the patchwork secondaries Belichek put together. I dont care who you are if you dont get pressure on the qb at this level the secondary will look bad. The only player in our secondary who is below average is Alan Ball. I believe a big part of our pass defense being poor is pass rush and terrible range in coverage by both our inside linebackers.
So your fundamental issue with the team starts with Jerry. OK, so well... you don't think this team can win a SB until he dies... um ok.

As for your second point... You can't say we have a difference because you think we don't have faults with our talent. So in your opinion our Front 7 is fine and our secondary is fine. We agree to disagree. That's fine with me. I know what I think.

But as for your theory... you misunderstand me. Defense is done as a team. Both the front 7 and the secondary compliment each other. You're a good secondary with a good front 7 and you're a good front 7 with a good secondary. You're only as strong as your weakest link. Right now our weakest link is at Safety. You seem to think we could toss fans on the field at Safety as long as we have a good Front 7. So like I said... we have to agree to disagree.
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Old 12-09-2010, 08:04 PM    (permalink
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Nope much more than Wade. Entitlement and lack of accountability from top down. Starts with the owner 1st and foremost. With competition within the roster comes development of players. This still remains the only team where depth chart is set in april. Why it takes injuries for us to discover guys like Miles Austin, Doug Free, and Tashard Choice is a major concern. My guess is meddling from the man writing the checks. We have teams that have had superbowl talent. Last year I thought we were the best team in the league at the end of the season. In 07 I still believe we would've won that game had Wade been calling the defensive plays instead of deferring to Brian Stewart.

Now onto the secondary. IMO we have a fundamental difference when it comes to how to play defense. IMO you can attribute much of the secondaries decline this year to the decline in the front 7. We definitely are not lacking in talent. I've seen worse secondaries win rings i.e the Giants of 07 and the patchwork secondaries Belichek put together. I dont care who you are if you dont get pressure on the qb at this level the secondary will look bad. The only player in our secondary who is below average is Alan Ball. I believe a big part of our pass defense being poor is pass rush and terrible range in coverage by both our inside linebackers.
I think what you're missing in your mention of that Giants team and those Patriots teams was that they had exceptional leadership inside the locker room. You don't have to be the most talented team in the league but you better have damn good leaders if you're going to be a Super Bowl contender. Guys like Strahan, Shaun O'Hara for the GMen and Brushi, Harrison for the Pats are something that we do not have. Those guys demanded excellence out of their teammates and played with a never say die attitude. I don't think we have that, we don't have those 2 or 3 core leaders who are vocal and constantly get after guys. Now Garrett certainly does a lot more of that than Wade, he's a big rah rah guy, but at the end of the day your HC is not one of the 11 guys on the field who are going to battle. I look around our roster and don't really see a guy like that(Choice and Lee have it in them, they have just not had a large enough role yet to do it). There's a reason why teams like the Ravens, Steelers, Pats, Saints (since Brees) and Colts are constantly performing at a high level and it's not just the roster talent.
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Old 12-09-2010, 08:32 PM    (permalink
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Jimmy Smith is a cornerback at Colorado. LMAO. You just contradicted your whole train of thought about moving Peterson to S.

Anyways, I have no problems drafting him as a CB. None. Newman is old and gets beat way to much these days. But how are you going to know that he won't be a better NFL S if you don't play him there? Seriously... if our scouts and coaches decide that they project him to be a better S, then I'm all for supporting whatever they decide to do. But the fact is, we've played ourselves out of getting him without trading up.

How did I contradict anything I said by saying I like Jimmy Smith? I know what position he plays. All I said was I like him in the 2nd round, period. That means if we happened to go OT in the 1st if we keep winning I like Jimmy Smith in the 2nd, and I also would still like Jimmy Smith in the 2nd if we did take Peterson to play him at safety. Now if you meant I wanted to move Smith to Safety which I think he could, it's different because it's the 2nd round not top 5. On that note I actually really really like Ras I Dowling to move to FS as well and I'd be fine to risk it in the 2nd round.


I'm not dismissing the notion that we would take him to play him at Safety, all I was making reference to was what CB I liked if we happened to not take one in the 1st round. I wouldn't want Smith if we took one in the 1st obviously.


I do agree were probably out of his play anyway, I think we'll beat Washington and Arizona.




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At least some of us have a sense of what's important. +rep.

Not saying you thought I felt the opposite, but I never said a Safety wasn't important or worth a top 5 pick, I just don't feel like it would be a good risk to take to draft a CB and transition him to Safety in the top 5. I want a play-maker at the Safety position and agree with everything Bob said, if our scouting dept likes him at Safety better cool. I disagree but honestly for the shot to get Peterson he could probably play LB and I'd be excited about it lol.


I'd take him any way that could make him a Cowboy. Peterson(CB) and Rahim Moore(or 1 of the other top rated safeties), or Peterson(FS) and Jimmy Smith would both make me very happy with the 1st 2 rounds. Probably want a lineman in there somewhere but I don't know what will be in FA or in the middle of the draft yet.
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I guarantee that if someone picks Cam Newton in the Top 5 they will regret it.
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Old 12-09-2010, 09:54 PM    (permalink
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So your fundamental issue with the team starts with Jerry. OK, so well... you don't think this team can win a SB until he dies... um ok.

As for your second point... You can't say we have a difference because you think we don't have faults with our talent. So in your opinion our Front 7 is fine and our secondary is fine. We agree to disagree. That's fine with me. I know what I think.

But as for your theory... you misunderstand me. Defense is done as a team. Both the front 7 and the secondary compliment each other. You're a good secondary with a good front 7 and you're a good front 7 with a good secondary. You're only as strong as your weakest link. Right now our weakest link is at Safety. You seem to think we could toss fans on the field at Safety as long as we have a good Front 7. So like I said... we have to agree to disagree.
Sorry but a good secondary does not make a good front 7. Never has been and never will be especially with these rules. A good front 7 makes a secondary look good because it stops the run to force 2nd and 3rd down long distances and it rushes the pass well without bringing extra people which allows for better coverage. And I didnt say we dont have weaknesses but look around the league every team has weakneses in this watered down age of free agency football. You have to hide those weaknesses. And yes football starts top down with ownership. If you have a owner who takes all authority away from the head coach by putting his staff together speaking about the roster instead of deferring to the head coach its going to be a problem. There is a reason why the only times we have had a tremendous amount of upgrade in talent were both under coaches who had full control and who the players knew made the football decisions (Jimmy and Parcells). If you dont think the owner is a major part of the problem you'll keep thinking the issue is just finding a safety, and then another corner. Its bigger than that. Jerry knows what wins but his ego drives him more than anything and at all costs he wants to win as the GM to prove to you know who. Time will tell but getting a GM who knows what he's doing will be the best thing for this organization.

And please stop putting words in my mouth.
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Old 12-09-2010, 10:02 PM    (permalink
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In today's NFL, Safety and DT/NT are the most important positions on the field IMHO b/c the talent is relatively speaking poor in comparison to CB/OLB and DE.

I can name you 20 DE/OLB who are fanstastic and you could inter change and get the same results. Name me 5 Safety that can replace Ed Reed?

I can name you 20 great CB that you can win with, but find me guy to play for Haloti Hgata in a feature-rich D scheme?

Ravens have always had a great D b/c of their strength in the middle and they have always moved-in-out edge players as needed. When Ray lost his NT b/f Ngata he was going to leave the Ravens .... not anymore.

I think talent at Safety and NT/DT free you up to do lots of things with the other 7-8 guys and frankly we always talk about being strong inside out. S and NT are where it starts D IMHO.

It is not crazy to spend top 5 for elite NT and S talent. Not at all. Just a supply/demand thing -- and supply of elite S/NT is very low b/c historically people under valued the spot ..... much like what is going to happen to the QB position in a few years if the spread option becomes more popular ..... constant QB demand but very low supply coming out of college.

Same crap in Basketball IMHO with Center versus small guys...... yeah you need perimeter talent to win but it is easier to replace a Kobe then a Gasol in the scheme of creating a Championship team. Even if Kobe is great, no big, no glory.

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Old 12-09-2010, 10:13 PM    (permalink
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In today's NFL, Safety and DT/NT are the most important positions on the field IMHO b/c the talent is relatively speaking poor in comparison to CB/OLB and DE.

I can name you 20 DE/OLB who are fanstastic and you could inter change and get the same results. Name me 5 Safety that can replace Ed Reed?

I can name you 20 great CB that you can win with, but find me guy to play for Haloti Hgata in a feature-rich D scheme?

Ravens have always had a great D b/c of their strength in the middle and they have always moved-in-out edge players as needed. When Ray lost his NT b/f Ngata he was going to leave the Ravens .... not anymore.

I think talent at Safety and NT/DT free you up to do lots of things with the other 7-8 guys and frankly we always talk about being strong inside out. S and NT are where it starts D IMHO.

It is not crazy to spend top 5 for elite NT and S talent. Not at all. Just a supply/demand thing -- and supply of elite S/NT is very low..... much like what is going to happen to the QB position in a few years if the spread option becomes more popular ..... constant QB demand but very low supply coming out of college.
I completely agree with this sentiment. IMO NT is still a high priority. I like Ratliff alot but we need a guy can hold the point of attack against double teams and a safety with range would be great. More impactful than corner. We probably dont have a shot at Peterson and if we were high enough to select him I'd rather go Fairley. Here is how my big board looks.

1. Fairley
2. Amukamara (as safety)
3. Peterson (as safety)
4. Dareus
5. Nate Solder
6. Robert Quinn (Spencer is an average player)
7. Janoris Jenkins

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Old 12-09-2010, 10:25 PM    (permalink
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I completely agree with this sentiment. IMO NT is still a high priority. I like Ratliff alot but we need a guy can hold the point of attack against double teams and a safety with range would be great. More impactful than corner. We probably dont have a shot at Peterson and if we were high enough to select him I'd rather go Fairley. Here is how my big board looks.

1. Fairley
2. Amukamara (as safety)
3. Peterson (as safety)
4. Dareus
5. Robert Quinn (Spencer is an average player)
6. Janoris Jenkins
Prince at S might be too small. If we go Fairley then I think we go 4-3.

Under this scenario, I think our back-up OLB (Williams, Williams, Butler) are small enough to effectively play OLB in a 4-3 scheme. Lee goes into starting MLB. Hell we can even get Barbie Carpenter as a back-up LB -- knows the system and his presence has been missed in pass coverage. Williams, Williams, Butler, Lee, Carpenter.

We probably move Spencer for something since Ware is probably the pass rushing DE. If not keep him and use Spencer as a situational rusher which is not a crazy idea and Spencer was 4-3 DE in college. Hatcher, Bowen, Ware, Spencer, Ratliff, Geathers and Brent stay as DL.

To save money we probably get rid of Brooking, James, Igor, Spears. We still have plenty of youth for the Front Seven plus another draft/FA.

Safety we keep Sense for SS which I think he can play but still have a major FS problem and we use FA to address this area. I think FS is too hard for a rookie unless they are elite and if we do Fairley then elite ain't happin.

On Offense, bye Roy Williams, bye MBIII, bye Davis and that is without even thinking about it too much. I am all over moving Witten for something and letting Martellus and Phillips play next year. I am also all over moving Gurode to Guard so he can stop thinking/snapping and simply drive block and pull. Colombo gotta go to but he might be a reasonable back up.

Use 2/3/4/5/6/7 for OL and DB depth PLUS A F'ING KICKER!!!!!!!!!!!! (again)

So in summary, I am cutting from the starting lineup under this scenario ....

Beuhler
Spears,
Olshanky,
James,
Brooking,
MBIII,
Davis,
Colombo.
Roy Williams.
Back to the bench for Alan Ball / competition for 4th CB or 4th safety.
Trying to trade Witten and Spencer.

.... that is lots of money saved let me tell you. We get younger and faster with some major growing up to be done in the first 8 games of next year.

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Old 12-10-2010, 01:08 AM    (permalink
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How did I contradict anything I said by saying I like Jimmy Smith? I know what position he plays. All I said was I like him in the 2nd round, period. That means if we happened to go OT in the 1st if we keep winning I like Jimmy Smith in the 2nd, and I also would still like Jimmy Smith in the 2nd if we did take Peterson to play him at safety. Now if you meant I wanted to move Smith to Safety which I think he could, it's different because it's the 2nd round not top 5. On that note I actually really really like Ras I Dowling to move to FS as well and I'd be fine to risk it in the 2nd round.


I'm not dismissing the notion that we would take him to play him at Safety, all I was making reference to was what CB I liked if we happened to not take one in the 1st round. I wouldn't want Smith if we took one in the 1st obviously.


I do agree were probably out of his play anyway, I think we'll beat Washington and Arizona.







Not saying you thought I felt the opposite, but I never said a Safety wasn't important or worth a top 5 pick, I just don't feel like it would be a good risk to take to draft a CB and transition him to Safety in the top 5. I want a play-maker at the Safety position and agree with everything Bob said, if our scouting dept likes him at Safety better cool. I disagree but honestly for the shot to get Peterson he could probably play LB and I'd be excited about it lol.


I'd take him any way that could make him a Cowboy. Peterson(CB) and Rahim Moore(or 1 of the other top rated safeties), or Peterson(FS) and Jimmy Smith would both make me very happy with the 1st 2 rounds. Probably want a lineman in there somewhere but I don't know what will be in FA or in the middle of the draft yet.
I don't get how your belief changes depending on where the player is picked. You don't like Peterson at S unless he was a 2nd rounder? Then you would be fine playing him at S? If Jimmy Smith or Ras-I get taken in Round 1 then you don't like them at S? But you're saying you like them at S in Round 2? I'm confused.
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Old 12-10-2010, 01:33 AM    (permalink
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Sorry but a good secondary does not make a good front 7. Never has been and never will be especially with these rules. A good front 7 makes a secondary look good because it stops the run to force 2nd and 3rd down long distances and it rushes the pass well without bringing extra people which allows for better coverage. And I didnt say we dont have weaknesses but look around the league every team has weakneses in this watered down age of free agency football. You have to hide those weaknesses. And yes football starts top down with ownership. If you have a owner who takes all authority away from the head coach by putting his staff together speaking about the roster instead of deferring to the head coach its going to be a problem. There is a reason why the only times we have had a tremendous amount of upgrade in talent were both under coaches who had full control and who the players knew made the football decisions (Jimmy and Parcells). If you dont think the owner is a major part of the problem you'll keep thinking the issue is just finding a safety, and then another corner. Its bigger than that. Jerry knows what wins but his ego drives him more than anything and at all costs he wants to win as the GM to prove to you know who. Time will tell but getting a GM who knows what he's doing will be the best thing for this organization.

And please stop putting words in my mouth.
I'm not putting words in your mouth. Maybe you need to clarify or choose your words more carefully. You said talent isn't an issue. Those are very bold words. To me that says we don't have personnel issues and that every problem we have is external to the players on the field. Screw the draft and FA because we already have all the talent we need to win the SB. That's what I interpret.

Then you use a word like "never" when talking about how a secondary does not help the pass rush in the front 7. That is complete BS. You're thinking is way too narrow minded. Yea, I know full well that a strong front 7 can help the secondary, but don't say a secondary "never" helps them in return. If a QB can't find an open guy to throw to, that forces him to hold onto the ball longer which allows the pressure to reach him. It's called a coverage sack. It happens more often than "never". The Giants are 2nd in the league in sacks. Guess what? Every player in their secondary was a 1st round pick. It isn't a coincidence.

With the rules the way they are, a strong secondary is needed more than ever. You can't have scrubs back there and expect to survive.

You said you "completely agree" with Bob about NT and SAFETY being the MOST important positions, but your previous words come across as a guy who doesn't think addressing the secondary is needed as long as you have a strong front 7. So is S one of the MOST important positions to your or not???
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Old 12-10-2010, 06:21 PM    (permalink
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I'm not putting words in your mouth. Maybe you need to clarify or choose your words more carefully. You said talent isn't an issue. Those are very bold words. To me that says we don't have personnel issues and that every problem we have is external to the players on the field. Screw the draft and FA because we already have all the talent we need to win the SB. That's what I interpret.

Then you use a word like "never" when talking about how a secondary does not help the pass rush in the front 7. That is complete BS. You're thinking is way too narrow minded. Yea, I know full well that a strong front 7 can help the secondary, but don't say a secondary "never" helps them in return. If a QB can't find an open guy to throw to, that forces him to hold onto the ball longer which allows the pressure to reach him. It's called a coverage sack. It happens more often than "never". The Giants are 2nd in the league in sacks. Guess what? Every player in their secondary was a 1st round pick. It isn't a coincidence.

With the rules the way they are, a strong secondary is needed more than ever. You can't have scrubs back there and expect to survive.

You said you "completely agree" with Bob about NT and SAFETY being the MOST important positions, but your previous words come across as a guy who doesn't think addressing the secondary is needed as long as you have a strong front 7. So is S one of the MOST important positions to your or not???
Sorry I guess a coverage sack helps but I mean throughout an entire season. The best defenses have the hogs upfront not the other way around. And yeah you were putting words in my mouth but it what it is. Giants have the most sacks because they've spent a ton of money and picks upfront lol. Osi, Tuck, Pierre Paul, Canty, Rocky Bernard, Kiwanuka and etc. Safety is the only position I consider important in the secondary. The rest you can be fine with average players. But the front 7 is of more importance. Your chances of having an elite defense go down significantly without having the best players on d playing the front 7. Look at Denver they've had the best corner in champ bailey for how many years? what it do for them? And I reiterate yes talent hasnt been the issue. Its much bigger than that. Its entitlement, its the way camps are run where the depth chart is already set, its was the lack of churning the roster and overall attention to detail. Jason has done a great job of getting this franchise back on track and as you can see the results are much better with him taking over even though we're without our starting QB. Talent hasnt been the issue and I think the play of late would show that as well considering the quality opponents we've been competiting against.
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Old 12-10-2010, 10:22 PM    (permalink
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In every single spot in the world you spend your money in the middle. Best running games...look at Pitt/NYJ/Cle and what do you see...all have good centers. Look at top defenses and you'll find a combination of ILB/DT/S. I often find myself salvating over the pretty positions but you build in the middle.

LL I have a question for you. You say you don't draft Peterson in the top 5 and change him positions. Let me ask you this though. Why is peterson going in the top 5? He's not even the best corner in the nation. He's probably just top 5. Everything that makes him an elite prospect translates to the safety position. So while yes you are projecting a lot of money into something he hasn't done a lot of...the game still has the same concepts. You can't play corner without knowing the safety role. You still need to know route combinations. I just don't get why you are so against it.
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Old 12-10-2010, 10:31 PM    (permalink
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In every single spot in the world you spend your money in the middle. Best running games...look at Pitt/NYJ/Cle and what do you see...all have good centers. Look at top defenses and you'll find a combination of ILB/DT/S. I often find myself salvating over the pretty positions but you build in the middle.

LL I have a question for you. You say you don't draft Peterson in the top 5 and change him positions. Let me ask you this though. Why is peterson going in the top 5? He's not even the best corner in the nation. He's probably just top 5. Everything that makes him an elite prospect translates to the safety position. So while yes you are projecting a lot of money into something he hasn't done a lot of...the game still has the same concepts. You can't play corner without knowing the safety role. You still need to know route combinations. I just don't get why you are so against it.
I don't know either. Especially since the reasons he gave against it, are not exactly the same factors for others like Dowling or Smith.
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Old 12-10-2010, 10:49 PM    (permalink
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I don't know either. Especially since the reasons he gave against it, are not exactly the same factors for others like Dowling or Smith.
I think he's saying it's easier to invest money into an unknown (moving a CB to S) in the 2nd round versus in the top 5. I understand that but talking PP I just don't see how putting him at CB is a huge factor in the decision. He hasn't been lock down...and while he has shown he can be elite as a football player he isn't....and there is not doubt with his strengths that his game wouldn't equally translate to the safety position.
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Old 12-11-2010, 12:08 PM    (permalink
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Hey, does anyone think you could maybe move Alan Ball to slot corner next year, move Terrence Newman to free safety, and draft Patrick Peterson to play CB opposite Scandrick or Jenkins?

I think a line-up of Jenkins (CB) - Newman (FS) - Sensabaugh (SS) - Peterson (CB) could potentially be elite.
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Old 12-11-2010, 12:53 PM    (permalink
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In every single spot in the world you spend your money in the middle. Best running games...look at Pitt/NYJ/Cle and what do you see...all have good centers. Look at top defenses and you'll find a combination of ILB/DT/S. I often find myself salvating over the pretty positions but you build in the middle.

LL I have a question for you. You say you don't draft Peterson in the top 5 and change him positions. Let me ask you this though. Why is peterson going in the top 5? He's not even the best corner in the nation. He's probably just top 5. Everything that makes him an elite prospect translates to the safety position. So while yes you are projecting a lot of money into something he hasn't done a lot of...the game still has the same concepts. You can't play corner without knowing the safety role. You still need to know route combinations. I just don't get why you are so against it.
Bingo! If we pick Amukamara or Peteron they better play safety. I think Peterson has the better build for the position but Amukamara is more than physical enough being a former running back and has much better instincts. I think like Charles Woodson he could be a probowler at corner back or free safety. He's so technically sound, instinctive and has terrific lateral agility and fluidity in his hips to go along with being a sound tackler.
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Old 12-11-2010, 12:55 PM    (permalink
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Hey, does anyone think you could maybe move Alan Ball to slot corner next year, move Terrence Newman to free safety, and draft Patrick Peterson to play CB opposite Scandrick or Jenkins?

I think a line-up of Jenkins (CB) - Newman (FS) - Sensabaugh (SS) - Peterson (CB) could potentially be elite.
Newman can barely stay healthy at corner and he's never been a physical corner. Along with that he doesnt have good ball skills and he's never been the most instinctive. We're seeing the rapid decline in Newman because he's been a player that has relied on his athleticism which is declining.
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