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Old 07-15-2010, 10:22 PM    (permalink
7DnBrnc53
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I'm not going to read a link to a website with an obviously negative bias.

And I disagree about your stance with 1995 being the last season that the 49ers were contenders. Especially when they made it back to the NFC Championship in 1997. And had we went to the Super Bowl that day, I think we would have beaten the Broncos seeing as how we beat them soundly only a few weeks earlier. The only team that really had our number is Green Bay. You can't really name anyone else. Except maybe the Panthers, who we never played in the postseason, but they were only really good for one season...1996. And the weak division angle doesn't really make sense...seeing as once you get to the playoffs you still have to beat the good teams, which the 49ers still had to do to win five championships.
1. The Niners did play in a mediocre-to-weak division in the 90's for the most part, especially 1997. Nobody else that year was at or above .500.

2. I don't think that the Niners would have beaten the Broncos in Super Bowl 32. That MNF game doesn't mean much. The Niners were at home, Rice came back, they were honoring Montana, and TD didn't play much in the second half. If they would have played in the Super Bowl, Denver would have stomped on them. It is possible that Shanahan may have had his players kiss SF's butt in the media like they did to Green Bay, but in private, I think that he may have talked up the revenge angle(for SB XXIV and 55-10) and got his players, especially Elway, worked up.

3. I looked through that website, and I don't think that it has a negative bias as much as it is bringing out the truth about how overrated the Niner organization was over the years, especially Eddie Debartolo, who is a piece of trash. I have been saying for years how overrated Montana is. And, that site is right about Brent Jones and how average he was. The Steelers drafted him in 1986, and he couldn't even make their team. And, they didn't have anyone any good playing the position. What does that say?
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Old 07-15-2010, 11:21 PM    (permalink
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1. The Niners did play in a mediocre-to-weak division in the 90's for the most part, especially 1997. Nobody else that year was at or above .500.

2. I don't think that the Niners would have beaten the Broncos in Super Bowl 32. That MNF game doesn't mean much. The Niners were at home, Rice came back, they were honoring Montana, and TD didn't play much in the second half. If they would have played in the Super Bowl, Denver would have stomped on them. It is possible that Shanahan may have had his players kiss SF's butt in the media like they did to Green Bay, but in private, I think that he may have talked up the revenge angle(for SB XXIV and 55-10) and got his players, especially Elway, worked up.

3. I looked through that website, and I don't think that it has a negative bias as much as it is bringing out the truth about how overrated the Niner organization was over the years, especially Eddie Debartolo, who is a piece of trash. I have been saying for years how overrated Montana is. And, that site is right about Brent Jones and how average he was. The Steelers drafted him in 1986, and he couldn't even make their team. And, they didn't have anyone any good playing the position. What does that say?
1. And? The 49ers still had to play difficult teams and defeat them that year. Minnesota, Denver, Tampa Bay and Kansas City were all playoff teams that year. And the weak division argument doesn't really hold water in my book. Especially since the 49ers won a Super Bowl in the 90's against a talented Dallas team. Once you get to the playoffs, you still have to beat the talented teams.

2. So the Broncos would have for sure stomped the 49ers even though they got their tails kicked a few weeks prior. Right, that makes sense. Jerry Rice came back. Montana was honored. So what? That automatically means the Broncos can't win a game? WTF? The Broncos were still a difficult team to play that year. And they didn't have Terrell Davis? Okay. The 49ers didn't have Garrison Hearst the entire game. Stop making excuses for the Broncos and their terrible performance that night. Elway was terribly inaccurate that evening. They were the inferior team that day, and it wouldn't be out of the question that the 49ers defeated the Broncos, had they beat the Packers...especially since they beat them a few weeks prior. I can't believe you're implying that doesn't make sense.

3. Okay so a website that says 49ershaters.com doesn't have a negative bias. LOL wow okay sure. Yes, Brent Jones was cut by the Steelers in the late eighties, who clearly knew what they were doing with their organization at the time. And if you truly believe that Joe Montana and the 49ers organization that won five championships were overrated, then you just can't be helped. I'll tell you, it wasn't luck, that is certain.
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Old 07-16-2010, 12:17 AM    (permalink
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The opening scene of Blind Side gave a pretty good explanation of a truly pivotal play.
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Old 07-17-2010, 05:16 PM    (permalink
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1. And? The 49ers still had to play difficult teams and defeat them that year. Minnesota, Denver, Tampa Bay and Kansas City were all playoff teams that year. And the weak division argument doesn't really hold water in my book. Especially since the 49ers won a Super Bowl in the 90's against a talented Dallas team. Once you get to the playoffs, you still have to beat the talented teams.

2. So the Broncos would have for sure stomped the 49ers even though they got their tails kicked a few weeks prior. Right, that makes sense. Jerry Rice came back. Montana was honored. So what? That automatically means the Broncos can't win a game? WTF? The Broncos were still a difficult team to play that year. And they didn't have Terrell Davis? Okay. The 49ers didn't have Garrison Hearst the entire game. Stop making excuses for the Broncos and their terrible performance that night. Elway was terribly inaccurate that evening. They were the inferior team that day, and it wouldn't be out of the question that the 49ers defeated the Broncos, had they beat the Packers...especially since they beat them a few weeks prior. I can't believe you're implying that doesn't make sense.

3. Okay so a website that says 49ershaters.com doesn't have a negative bias. LOL wow okay sure. Yes, Brent Jones was cut by the Steelers in the late eighties, who clearly knew what they were doing with their organization at the time. And if you truly believe that Joe Montana and the 49ers organization that won five championships were overrated, then you just can't be helped. I'll tell you, it wasn't luck, that is certain.
When I looked at that site, I realized that it was a counter to all of the bandwagon butt kissers that were kissing up to San Francisco in the 80's and 90's. It is the same thing that the Pats get today. Now, maybe that site went a little overboard, like when they said that Ronnie Lott didn't belong in the Hall of Fame, and when they said that Rice is overrated.

However, I commend them because they analyzed Rice's games back then, and came up with their conclusions that way instead of eating the crap the media spoonfed everyone about how Rice and Montana are the best ever, and that Steve Young was the toughest player in the league.

And, I didn't say the Niners were lucky. But the guy did bring up a good point. He said that, in the 80's, most teams had more of a downfield throwing game with a power running game, and that is what defenses were used to. They weren't used to what San Fran was doing offensively. So, nobody really defensed them properly. They used too much zone coverage.

In addition, maybe I made too many excuses for Denver in that Monday Night game, but that doesn't change the fact that they were a different team on SB Sunday than they were that December night in San Francisco. To this day, I still believe that they would have beaten the Niners if they would have played them.
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Old 07-17-2010, 05:24 PM    (permalink
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But the guy did bring up a good point. He said that, in the 80's, most teams had more of a downfield throwing game with a power running game, and that is what defenses were used to. They weren't used to what San Fran was doing offensively. So, nobody really defensed them properly. They used too much zone coverage.
Wait, wait, wait... are you telling me that, because the Niners were pioneering the West Coast Offense, which was created in reaction to the zone, they're some how overrated or that their accomplishments should be diminished?
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Old 07-17-2010, 05:33 PM    (permalink
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When I looked at that site, I realized that it was a counter to all of the bandwagon butt kissers that were kissing up to San Francisco in the 80's and 90's. It is the same thing that the Pats get today. Now, maybe that site went a little overboard, like when they said that Ronnie Lott didn't belong in the Hall of Fame, and when they said that Rice is overrated.

However, I commend them because they analyzed Rice's games back then, and came up with their conclusions that way instead of eating the crap the media spoonfed everyone about how Rice and Montana are the best ever, and that Steve Young was the toughest player in the league.

And, I didn't say the Niners were lucky. But the guy did bring up a good point. He said that, in the 80's, most teams had more of a downfield throwing game with a power running game, and that is what defenses were used to. They weren't used to what San Fran was doing offensively. So, nobody really defensed them properly. They used too much zone coverage.

In addition, maybe I made too many excuses for Denver in that Monday Night game, but that doesn't change the fact that they were a different team on SB Sunday than they were that December night in San Francisco. To this day, I still believe that they would have beaten the Niners if they would have played them.
Media attention is going to come with any champion in sports. Especially when you win consistently for a long time. That can't be helped. So your beef should be with the media, and not the 49ers organization. That is what it sounds like your deal is to me. The franchise was successful and it's not like they cheated. Bill Walsh and his associates were very innovative for their approach. So even if defenses weren't used to what they were doing, it really doesn't matter. On the contrary, a ball club like that should be honored for being innovative in the first place and taking advantage of whatever nuances of football they can. So I don't see why anyone would hold that against them. Like I said, they won fair and square.

As for that website, it's going to have a negative bias no matter how much evidence is put to the opposition and you shouldn't use places like that for a source of reference and as a basis for a conclusion. For a skeptic, there will never be enough proof. Ronnie Lott not in the Hall of Fame? Give me a break. 49ershaters.com should give you a clue to steer away from it.

For Denver against the 49ers in the Super Bowl, we'll never know. You may believe that the 49ers would have lost that day had they made it, and that's fine. I'm just saying it wouldn't be out of the question if the 49ers had defeated them again, this time in the big dance. And I don't think it's out of the question for that to occur.
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Oh, my bad. Didn't realize SWDC was the pinnacle of class and grace.

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Old 07-19-2010, 05:51 PM    (permalink
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Wait, wait, wait... are you telling me that, because the Niners were pioneering the West Coast Offense, which was created in reaction to the zone, they're some how overrated or that their accomplishments should be diminished?
The West Coast Offense wasn't created in reaction to the zone. I never said that. And, the Niners didn't pioneer it. Actually, the system that should be called the "West Coast" offense(the one that is now called the "Air Coryell" system) is the one that Sid Gillman pioneered with the AFL Chargers, which is more of a vertical game. Al Davis, a Gillman assistant, took the system to the Raiders.

Here is where Walsh comes in: He was a running backs coach with the 66 Raiders, so, when he went to Cincinnati in 1968 to be an offensive assistant, I imagine that he took the principles of that offense with him. In 1969, the Bengals drafted a QB #1 out of Cincinnati U by the name of Greg Cook. The strong-armed Cook was supposed to be the QB of Walsh's offense for years to come. Then, against the Chiefs, he hurt his shoulder. He played through it the whole season, but in doing so, he tore his rotator cuff.

The archaic surgery procedures couldn't do anything about it, so he ended up retiring in 73 after a few unsuccessful comeback attempts. So, in 1970, Walsh had to move away from the concepts of the original "West Coast" offense because Cook was gone. His QB's would be Sam Wyche and Virgil Carter, who didn't have Cook's arm strength or ability. So, he implemented a short passing game, and used more passes to the backs. That was the beginning of the offense that would benefit QB's like Ken Anderson, Joe Montana, and Steve Young in the future.

Here are some Wikipedia articles(I know that Wiki isn't the best, but these links also have links to other articles):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Coast_Offense

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_Coryell
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Old 07-19-2010, 06:12 PM    (permalink
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You didnt answer the question. You implied that their accomplishments should be less valued because of the offense they ran. That makes no sense.
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Old 07-19-2010, 08:31 PM    (permalink
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You didnt answer the question. You implied that their accomplishments should be less valued because of the offense they ran. That makes no sense.
I know. I was just explaining the origins of the offense, and that the Niners didn't invent it. As for their accomplishments being less valued because of the offense they ran, I will answer that question this way. In some ways, yes, because Walsh's West Coast offense was a little too cheesy and finesse at times. However, there weren't many teams that were stopping it on a consistent basis, so you have to give them credit with what was working for them, as long as it is legal.
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Old 07-19-2010, 09:32 PM    (permalink
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I know. I was just explaining the origins of the offense, and that the Niners didn't invent it. As for their accomplishments being less valued because of the offense they ran, I will answer that question this way. In some ways, yes, because Walsh's West Coast offense was a little too cheesy and finesse at times. However, there weren't many teams that were stopping it on a consistent basis, so you have to give them credit with what was working for them, as long as it is legal.
What does it matter if it works and defeats opponents? And I don't remember there being any set of defined rules for how aesthetically pleasing an offense should look. Not like that should be important in the first place. As long as an offense is effective, that is all that matters.
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Old 07-20-2010, 07:56 PM    (permalink
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This thread is about plays that altered the course of a franchise.

For example, the Tom Brady injury in 2008(that altered not only New England's future, but possibly also Denver's and several other teams as well).

Also, I have another one: Vernon Perry's FG block and return against San Diego in the 1979 playoffs. The Chargers were about to go up 10-0 in the second quarter when Oiler Safety Vernon Perry changed the momentum of the entire game with a FG block and a 50+ yard return to around the SD 30. The Oilers were able to win the game 17-14, and go on to Pittsburgh for the AFC Title game.

If that FG is made, the Chargers probably would have gone on to win against a banged-up Oiler team that was missing Pastorini and Earl Campbell. The next week, they would have hosted Pittsburgh. Both teams had 12-4 records, but the Chargers beat the Steelers 35-7 at home that year. If they would have won, they would have played the Rams that year in the SB, who they defeated 40-16 that year in Week 8. A SB win for the Chargers in 79 may have been the start of a new dynasty. I think that they could have repeated the next year, and maybe that would have led to Fred Dean and JJ getting new deals before the 1981 season. If Dean doesn't go to SF, they may have had a harder time winning the SB, and maybe Cincy, Dallas, or the Chargers win that year. As a result, the Niner Dynasty might never have gotten off the ground, and the West Coast Offense wouldn't have been as widespread.
How the **** do you remember your name when you log in?
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Old 07-20-2010, 11:33 PM    (permalink
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How the **** do you remember your name when you log in?
What the heck are you talking about?
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Old 07-21-2010, 02:11 AM    (permalink
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It looks like the serial number for my PC, which I can't remember.
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Old 07-21-2010, 10:42 AM    (permalink
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The West Coast Offense wasn't created in reaction to the zone. I never said that. And, the Niners didn't pioneer it. Actually, the system that should be called the "West Coast" offense(the one that is now called the "Air Coryell" system) is the one that Sid Gillman pioneered with the AFL Chargers, which is more of a vertical game. Al Davis, a Gillman assistant, took the system to the Raiders.

Here is where Walsh comes in: He was a running backs coach with the 66 Raiders, so, when he went to Cincinnati in 1968 to be an offensive assistant, I imagine that he took the principles of that offense with him. In 1969, the Bengals drafted a QB #1 out of Cincinnati U by the name of Greg Cook. The strong-armed Cook was supposed to be the QB of Walsh's offense for years to come. Then, against the Chiefs, he hurt his shoulder. He played through it the whole season, but in doing so, he tore his rotator cuff.

The archaic surgery procedures couldn't do anything about it, so he ended up retiring in 73 after a few unsuccessful comeback attempts. So, in 1970, Walsh had to move away from the concepts of the original "West Coast" offense because Cook was gone. His QB's would be Sam Wyche and Virgil Carter, who didn't have Cook's arm strength or ability. So, he implemented a short passing game, and used more passes to the backs. That was the beginning of the offense that would benefit QB's like Ken Anderson, Joe Montana, and Steve Young in the future.

Here are some Wikipedia articles(I know that Wiki isn't the best, but these links also have links to other articles):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Coast_Offense

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_Coryell
Everyone already knows this story, and you did nothing to answer the question at hand.

Way to regurgitate irrelevant information that most people already know.
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Old 07-21-2010, 07:36 PM    (permalink
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Everyone already knows this story, and you did nothing to answer the question at hand.

Way to regurgitate irrelevant information that most people already know.
Whatever you say.
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Old 07-21-2010, 07:51 PM    (permalink
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Also, I have another one: Vernon Perry's FG block and return against San Diego in the 1979 playoffs. The Chargers were about to go up 10-0 in the second quarter when Oiler Safety Vernon Perry changed the momentum of the entire game with a FG block and a 50+ yard return to around the SD 30. The Oilers were able to win the game 17-14, and go on to Pittsburgh for the AFC Title game.

If that FG is made, the Chargers probably would have gone on to win against a banged-up Oiler team that was missing Pastorini and Earl Campbell. The next week, they would have hosted Pittsburgh. Both teams had 12-4 records, but the Chargers beat the Steelers 35-7 at home that year. If they would have won, they would have played the Rams that year in the SB, who they defeated 40-16 that year in Week 8. A SB win for the Chargers in 79 may have been the start of a new dynasty. I think that they could have repeated the next year, and maybe that would have led to Fred Dean and JJ getting new deals before the 1981 season. If Dean doesn't go to SF, they may have had a harder time winning the SB, and maybe Cincy, Dallas, or the Chargers win that year. As a result, the Niner Dynasty might never have gotten off the ground, and the West Coast Offense wouldn't have been as widespread.


My family still talks about this game. I guess it is their version of the 2006 meltdown.
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Old 07-27-2010, 10:20 AM    (permalink
7DnBrnc53
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It looks like the serial number for my PC, which I can't remember.
Good for you.

Another pivotal play occurred in the 1990 NFC Title Game when Roger Craig fumbled the ball and LT recovered. If the Niners run out the clock and go to the Super Bowl, I think that Buffalo could have knocked them off. They matched up better with San Francisco that year. The Bills had problems in the Super Bowl against more physical NFC East teams. And, there was a good chance that Montana may not have played in the game after the Leonard Marshall hit.
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Old 07-27-2010, 04:14 PM    (permalink
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I won't go that far. As a Giants fan, it was a great and memorable play, but let's keep it in perspective. That play only got us a first down. From 3-5 to 1st and 10 on the Pats side of the field. After that, they still had a 3rd and long on us, and chances to stop us. We still had to score. It's not like Tyree caught it in the endzone, to win it. We still had to score, and they still had chances to stop us. It was a great play and memorable, perhaps even epic. But at the end of the day, it only gave us a first down.
You're insane.
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Old 07-27-2010, 05:11 PM    (permalink
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Scott Norwood's missed 41 yd fg in the Superbowl probably changes a ton of perceptions of the Bills, Giants, Jim Kelley, Bill Parcells....for years to come.
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Old 07-30-2010, 01:36 AM    (permalink
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In the Peyton Manning era, the defining play of the Indianapolis Colts would have to be "The Block". The play has all the elements of a defining moment. It was the AFC Championship Game (huge stakes) against the Colts' nemesis (huge rivalry), and it seemed to be the best chance the Colts had yet to win a championship, until of course they got down 21-3 (huge comeback). Then Peyton Manning figured out the no huddle offense would gas an aging Patriots defense, the Colts got a couple of breaks, and the largest comeback in Conference Championship history culminated on the aforementioned play. The Colts, down by 3 with 1:02 left in the game, had a 3rd and 2 that was essentially a must convert (situation team has struggled in previously), as the Patriots had two timeouts, and a field goal gives the Patriots the ball back with time enough to try to drive for a field goal of their own to win the game. The Colts, as they had the previous two plays, decide to run the ball. Jeff Saturday makes an amazing block of Vince Wilfork, takes him to the ground, and creates the gaping hole that allows Addai to "walk in for the touchdown", per Jim Nantz. This play gave the Colts the lead for the first time in the game, and put the Patriots in a situation they'd never faced in a playoff game to that point: they needed a TD to win, and had less than a minute of game time to get it. On the ensuing drive, Marlin Jackson intercepts Tom Brady's pass, the RCA Dome erupts in a deafening roar (I know, I was there), and the rest, as they say, is history.

Overall in Colts history, I don't see how the final play of "The Greatest Game Ever Played" could NOT be the defining play of Colts' history, considering it's a defining moment in NFL history.
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Old 07-30-2010, 07:07 AM    (permalink
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You're insane.
Slightly, but I have to admit it does open doors.
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