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Old 07-28-2010, 07:16 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Seamus2602 View Post
Not anymore. Definately used to be but Favre now isn't Favre from 10 years ago. Hell he isn't even the Favre from 5 years ago. But he's still pretty damn good.
Favre threw 33 TDs and 7 picks last year while completing 68% of his passes for over 4200 yards. It makes no sense on how Favre was elite 5-10 years ago, and not now. In fact, his best seasons besides last year were over 10 years ago. Might want to rethink this post.
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Old 07-28-2010, 07:17 PM    (permalink
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Pollard was average at best for the Chiefs, you can blame the coaching staff some as well as Pollard but for whatever reason it just didn't work here it happens.
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Old 07-28-2010, 07:58 PM    (permalink
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Favre threw 33 TDs and 7 picks last year while completing 68% of his passes for over 4200 yards. It makes no sense on how Favre was elite 5-10 years ago, and not now. In fact, his best seasons besides last year were over 10 years ago. Might want to rethink this post.
This, favre was one of the best QBs in football last year and even with his age he's one of the toughest SOBs in the business, torn bicep with the Jets, busted ankle throughout the season with the Vikes and he just keeps producing.
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Old 07-28-2010, 11:53 PM    (permalink
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Manning, Brees, Brady, Rivers, and Rodgers are all clearly better than Romo. I don't think anyone other than Cowboys fans would argue that. After the top five I think you can stick Romo in there anywhere from 6 to 10. I'd probably stick him at 7 or 8.
Please give me the justification for Rivers and Rodgers being unquestionably better than Romo.
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Old 07-29-2010, 12:04 AM    (permalink
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The only people who think Romo is better than Rodgers or Rivers are Cowboys fans.
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Old 07-29-2010, 12:10 AM    (permalink
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The only people who think Romo is better than Rodgers or Rivers are Cowboys fans.
I haven't said he's better, but I want to know how the others are proven to be better. Give me the justification. As far as wins and numbers go, I don't see a significant difference. So what is it?
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Old 07-29-2010, 12:12 AM    (permalink
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The only people who think Romo is better than Rodgers or Rivers are Cowboys fans.
I don't think anyone said that. To say that Rivers and Rodgers are a tier better than Romo doesn't really make sense to me from what all three have accomplished in their careers so far. They're all in that second tier behind the big three of Manning, Brees, and Brady right now.
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Old 07-29-2010, 12:26 AM    (permalink
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Cowboys shouldn't be anointed just yet
The Cowboys seem to be the paper champs of the NFC East the addition of Dez Bryant, the health of three solid young running backs and the perceived weaknesses of their divisional rivals put together a coherent argument.

Consider for a moment. When has Wade Philips had his team live up to their billing? When have the running backs remained healthy for 16 games? When has Romo taken that step he's been predicted to take every year (though I will say he is a solid Quarterback). This brings me to my next point.


Not to say the rest of your concerns aren't warranted and without cause(then again, find me ONE team without a list of concerns for next season), but the two bolded issues don't make much sense.


When have the RB's remained healthy for 16 games? Well that's pretty much the point of having 3, because when an injury happens the RB play doesn't drop off. That's the better question, is when has the RB productivity fell off? Because even when Barber and Felix were both hurt Choice produced like an elite RB vs the best defenses in december and it's easy to assume he's gotten better since that point, as well as Felix.


When has Romo taken that next step that he was predicted to?


Did you miss last season? He lost TO(which everyone assumed he would have a terrible season without the all mighty TO around) and he threw for a career high in passing yards, threw under 10 INT's, cut his fumbles in half, and pretty much was a completely different person in terms of taking care of the football which were primarily his only concerns.



He won in December, he won in the playoffs, threw for more yards without a HOF WR, took care of the football, if those weren't the things you were expecting from him to do, then what else is he supposed to do? All those things I listed were things people said he needed to do to take the next step and he did that.


As far as the "elite" word, ehhh, everyone has a different definition, but as I said before in the Schaub thread I'm still putting my guys in tiers, and I have a really hard time understanding how Rivers would be in a completely different tier then Romo, and I'm even struggling putting Rodgers a tier higher.



Maybe someone could explain why Rivers is a tier above Romo to me, but if were just talking about personal preference that's even more reason why they should be in the same tier because there isn't much seperating the two. Romo has been alot better in terms of stats(Norv Turner has a way of accumulating stats for his QB's), both guys are extremely accurate, Romo is alot more mobile and a better thrower on the run.


Rivers has had some gutsy playoff performances, so nothing needs to be taken away from him, but I guess I'm not sure why he's so easily right behind the Brees/Manning/Brady bunch.


I personally want to see more from Rodgers as well, he throws the ball almost 100 more times a season then a guy like Phillip Rivers does so he has alot of chances to make plays, but I will give him credit where credit is due. The fact that he had so few INT's is very impressive.
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Old 07-29-2010, 12:28 AM    (permalink
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I really didn't even see this last page before I posted, but that's pretty much what I'm asking too. But nobody really likes to offer up any legit answers other then "Cowboys fans are the only ones who think Romo is that good". I don't have him in my top 5 either, but let's not act like he's just good to Cowboy fans and not really good at all.
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Old 07-29-2010, 01:33 AM    (permalink
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Not to say the rest of your concerns aren't warranted and without cause(then again, find me ONE team without a list of concerns for next season), but the two bolded issues don't make much sense.


When have the RB's remained healthy for 16 games? Well that's pretty much the point of having 3, because when an injury happens the RB play doesn't drop off. That's the better question, is when has the RB productivity fell off? Because even when Barber and Felix were both hurt Choice produced like an elite RB vs the best defenses in december and it's easy to assume he's gotten better since that point, as well as Felix.


When has Romo taken that next step that he was predicted to?


Did you miss last season? He lost TO(which everyone assumed he would have a terrible season without the all mighty TO around) and he threw for a career high in passing yards, threw under 10 INT's, cut his fumbles in half, and pretty much was a completely different person in terms of taking care of the football which were primarily his only concerns.



He won in December, he won in the playoffs, threw for more yards without a HOF WR, took care of the football, if those weren't the things you were expecting from him to do, then what else is he supposed to do? All those things I listed were things people said he needed to do to take the next step and he did that.


As far as the "elite" word, ehhh, everyone has a different definition, but as I said before in the Schaub thread I'm still putting my guys in tiers, and I have a really hard time understanding how Rivers would be in a completely different tier then Romo, and I'm even struggling putting Rodgers a tier higher.



Maybe someone could explain why Rivers is a tier above Romo to me, but if were just talking about personal preference that's even more reason why they should be in the same tier because there isn't much seperating the two. Romo has been alot better in terms of stats(Norv Turner has a way of accumulating stats for his QB's), both guys are extremely accurate, Romo is alot more mobile and a better thrower on the run.


Rivers has had some gutsy playoff performances, so nothing needs to be taken away from him, but I guess I'm not sure why he's so easily right behind the Brees/Manning/Brady bunch.


I personally want to see more from Rodgers as well, he throws the ball almost 100 more times a season then a guy like Phillip Rivers does so he has alot of chances to make plays, but I will give him credit where credit is due. The fact that he had so few INT's is very impressive.
The thing with Romo has to do with my concerns for the offensive line. I am a big Romo fan, I'm not going to buy his Jersey or anything but I think he's on his way to being a very good QB in the NFL, thing is though I don't think he's good enough to overcome the weaknesses of his team in the way that Warner was able to, P. Manning seems to be able to and Drew Brees has been able to.

Superbowls and Playoffs in recent years have been decided primarily on the ability of a team to protect their quarterback, look at the recent superbowls for prime examples of this and even though Romo throws a great ball on the run, made up for the myriad of issues last year in the regular season for the most part, and has the ability to avoid the rush, I think the team will struggle against the likes of Minnesota, New Orleans and generally teams that have QBs who've been able to produce when facing venomous pass rushes like the cowboys have.

I'm not saying Romo is necessarily worse than any other QB in the NFL, I'm just saying he doesn't have that history of putting his team over the top when everyone else around him has faltered.

I still have the cowboys winning in their division I think it's all but a sealed deal that despite the issues I mentioned they'll be good enough to cruise past the eagles unless they gel early and Kolb plays better than expected, or the Giants find their groove after the injuries and upheaval they went through last year.
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Old 07-29-2010, 01:53 AM    (permalink
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Yea I can buy the offensive line concerns, their legit, especially seeing the last game. Free is unknown, some other guys are getting older, we just don't know all that much about most of those guys so I can't argue against that. But I see your point about over coming weaknesses.
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Old 07-29-2010, 02:29 AM    (permalink
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I know Free is an unknown but I think the way he played was encouraging last year.
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Old 07-29-2010, 03:46 AM    (permalink
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I haven't said he's better, but I want to know how the others are proven to be better. Give me the justification. As far as wins and numbers go, I don't see a significant difference. So what is it?
The way Rivers played down the stretch of the regular season places him firmly above Romo in my book. He (Rivers) has been performing great for many seasons now, but he arguably led the most efficient and dangerous passing attack last year, which was a landmark year for great passing attacks.

As for Rodgers, I think he will climb into near-elite territory after this year, but placing him higher than Romo is projection right now.
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Old 07-29-2010, 04:26 AM    (permalink
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I think it is way too tough to start definitively ranking the QBs after Manning, Brady, Brees(not neccessarily that order). My problem with Romo is what does he do when it's clutch time? I have seen too many times him not being able to lift the whole team when it matters. The 'elite' QBs make everyone around them better.

It's hard to find tangeable evidence to put Rivers and Rodgers above Romo but what you have to think about is 'who would I prefer in the last two minutes of a playoff game, when we're down by 4?' Personally right now I'd take Rivers over anyone but the three QBs I mentioned earlier.
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Old 07-29-2010, 08:24 AM    (permalink
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The way Rivers played down the stretch of the regular season places him firmly above Romo in my book. He (Rivers) has been performing great for many seasons now, but he arguably led the most efficient and dangerous passing attack last year, which was a landmark year for great passing attacks.
how about his play in December? seems like, every year, he ends with a 4-5 game streak
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Old 07-29-2010, 09:06 AM    (permalink
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Yea I can buy the offensive line concerns, their legit, especially seeing the last game. Free is unknown, some other guys are getting older, we just don't know all that much about most of those guys so I can't argue against that. But I see your point about over coming weaknesses.
Basically it comes down to each fan base is happy with their QB. Also, each QB is very successful within their own specific system. So comparing them is hard to do. Brady, Brees, and Manning are the highest level. The rest I tend to clump in one level after that. You can even say that with those 3 elite Qbs too. They are great QBs within a great system, with great coaches and personnel around them. I think Romo, Rivers, and Rodgers are all equal, and highly productive within their respective systems.

Garrett, Turner, and the WCO system for Rodgers are all proven systems, that are QB friendly. They are all good QBs.
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Old 07-29-2010, 09:31 AM    (permalink
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how about his play in December? seems like, every year, he ends with a 4-5 game streak
True but he begins every tear going 2-3 the last 3 years thats been the chargers record after 5 games. If he gets credit for the streak give him credit for putting his team into the hole.
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Old 07-29-2010, 09:34 AM    (permalink
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Rivers is better then both Rodgers and Romo so there's that...:)
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Old 07-29-2010, 10:06 AM    (permalink
tjsunstein
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I haven't said he's better, but I want to know how the others are proven to be better. Give me the justification. As far as wins and numbers go, I don't see a significant difference. So what is it?
Rodgers is just as good as a passer, possibly better depending on what stats you give importance to, and twice the scrambler Romo is. Rodgers does hold on to the ball too long at time, upping his sack rate and lowering his interception total. He'd rather tuck the ball and live another down instead of chucking the ball into coverage.
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Old 07-29-2010, 10:34 AM    (permalink
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Homer prediction indeed.

I apologize, but Chicago will mutilate Carolina.

Julius Peppers is going to be taking a dump on Matt Moore's head all day long, and Tommie Harris will be flinging some of that poo into Clausen's face as he weep on the sideline. All the while, Jay Cutler is bombing TD passes to Johnny Knox giving old man Fox Hiroshima flashbacks.
I didn't know the Panthers signed Knox and converted him to CB...
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Old 07-29-2010, 10:48 AM    (permalink
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Rodgers does hold on to the ball too long at time, upping his sack rate and lowering his interception total. He'd rather tuck the ball and live another down instead of chucking the ball into coverage.
And that doesn't apply to Romo? Last year he had a career high in sacks at 34 and a career low in interceptions at 9. The guy wasn't chucking the ball into coverage this past season.
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Old 07-29-2010, 11:14 AM    (permalink
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And that doesn't apply to Romo? Last year he had a career high in sacks at 34 and a career low in interceptions at 9. The guy wasn't chucking the ball into coverage this past season.
Those stats really don't tell you what exactly is going on.

Rodgers plays in a WCO which traditionally the reads go from bottom to top. So if the nearest progressions are covered and you feel the rush, it makes no sense to chuck it deep hoping your top progression is open. Or the QB may not have time to take a peak at it because he feels the pressure or has gotten sack by that time.

For Romo, things could be different as well. When I talked to Coach Garrett Sr. he said a QB like Romo doesn't have that many progressions. Mind you this when early on when he was having success. But I see the high sacks, I think of Coach Garrett calling more vertical concept plays. So that in turn means the protections are going to be tailored towards those concepts. Meaning 3,5, and 7 step drops. If the formation is 5 WR, then there would be no help by the RB. If it's 4 WR, that means the RB would have to make the line right. So if two or more pass rushers are coming in, Romo is done. He either is getting sacked, or very well could be throwing the ball into coverage, but rather then getting picked off, they are going incomplete.

Just because the end number of ints is low doesn't mean he isn't doing stupid stuff. Same with any Qb. You can still do bone headed stuff, and still manage to somehow keep that int number low via sacks, or even incomplete passes helping you.
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Old 07-29-2010, 11:23 AM    (permalink
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Romo doesnt make a habit of throwing the ball away. So he does actually lay down on purpose, instead of throwing the ball stupidly into coverage. He extends the play as much as possible, and then if nothing is there, he'd take the sack, instead of throwing, like he used to do. And as for the fumbles...he doesnt hold the ball like a loaf of bread anymore. Tony is ever improving, his improvements in the turnover game are greatly contributed to his changes in his playing style. The guy shouldnt even had that many ints really...if you recall one that tomahawked off of Witten's foot and the couple that Roy popped up in the air. bleh. Romo really has come a long way and has all but eliminated most mistakes or flaws in his game.

He's still relatively short into his starting career, despite the fact that he's 30. I just wish we had some more consistent pass protection for him.
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Old 07-29-2010, 11:36 AM    (permalink
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The term elite is so fake. Regardless of ability, most QBs only get labeled elite until they've won a SB. If you really want to create a category of elite.. then there is only 1 elite QB. Peyton Manning. Nobody can touch him. Not Brady, not Brees, not Favre. He does more with nothing than any of those other guys.
Agreed, D.

Peyton Manning transcends mere elite status, he is state of the art for NFL QBs.

An elite NFL QB is one fortunate enough to have a SBworthy supporting cast. No QB gets the ring alone despite all the crap you hear about Team Favre, Team, Brees, etc.
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Old 07-29-2010, 12:47 PM    (permalink
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to be honest, why is peyton manning above all the rest? he plays in a dome, has had quality recievers his entire career, and while his regular season stats are fantastic, he has won one superbowl... against the rex grossman lead bears... and cost his team another by throwing the ball right into tracy porter chest plate. now im going to get blasted because i said the all mighting god of peyton manning isnt the best, but please someone counterpoint me. i think my point are valid. ill take a healthy brady or manning any day of the week. before manning beat the grossman led bears... he had the same playoff stigma as romo. isnt manning like 9-8 all time? so he's been to the playoffs nine times with one ring to show for it.... yeah....
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