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Old 07-28-2010, 03:24 PM    (permalink
Ness
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Originally Posted by Mr.Regular View Post
Schaub is a product of statistics and fantasy fans who know nothing about real football.
What? So he's being successful without really being successful?

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Originally Posted by jayceheathman View Post
Having the best WR in the game is what makes him good. The Texans finally had a decent OL that kept him off of the ground. A lot of it is the fantasy numbers because Houston has a horrible running game so the team passes the ball a lot. He also has Owen Daniels as well as AJ.
That's like saying the reason Steve Young was successful was because he had Jerry Rice. Schaub already showed signs of decency when he was down in Atlanta. At the end of the day you still have to make the accurate throws and good decisions to be a successful starter. If it was that easy, David Carr would have thrived in Houston...or Jamie Martin would have been dynamite all the time Marc Bulger went down due to the presence of Torry Holt and Isaac Bruce. It just doesn't work like that.

The Texans offensive line may have gotten better, but Schaub himself is a much better quarterback when it comes to avoiding the sack. David Carr made Houston's offensive line look way worse than it was.

As for the "fantasy numbers" angle, you could easily say the same thing about Phillip Rivers and his dead last ranked rushing attack. By that logic Rivers would be overrated as well. On the contrary, guys like Rivers and Schaub should receive more credit for having to pass the rock so many times due to the ineffectiveness of their team's own rushing attack.
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Old 07-28-2010, 04:50 PM    (permalink
Mr.Regular
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Originally Posted by Ness View Post
What? So he's being successful without really being successful?
Stats are an awful way to judge talent, especially in football. Schaub is a good QB, no doubt about it. But I've seen people compare his stats with the elite talents in this league and make the argument that that is why Schaub himself is elite. I'm just not a fan of statistics being used in an argument to judge a players talents or value, because in football so much of any given play is the product of all 11 guys and so much of it is scheme. It's just not a statistical sport.

Anyway, I see a guy who is the beneficiary of the top WR in the game. When he's on his game, it almost always means Andre is on too. And if not, then coverage has opened up due to Andre. So much of that offense runs through AJ. Does this mean Schaub isnt that good? No, of course not. But it means he's not to be judged on his stats. Did Tom Brady all of a sudden becomes 10x better when he got Randy Moss? No. Sure, he was insane that year but he didn't get that way on his own. His stats exploded because of Randy.

So yeah, those stats are a product of the offense, which runs through Johnson for the most part. Doesn't mean Schaub isnt good, just means stats aren't a decent measure.
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Old 07-28-2010, 05:10 PM    (permalink
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It's way way too hard and complicated to rank QB's one by one, you need to use tiers. I have Schaub in the same tier as Eli and Romo with no particuliar order at that point. I also have Rivers in that same tier. I haven't quite decided if I want to put Rodgers in tier 1 with Brees, Manning, and Brady, or this tier with these guys. I've been a bit back and forth on that, but Schaub I'd lump in with Romo and Eli but certainly not ahead.


He's a talented QB, I'll just leave it at that, he does tend to get overrated at times due to fantasy football but he is good.
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Old 07-28-2010, 05:27 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by LonghornsLegend View Post
It's way way too hard and complicated to rank QB's one by one, you need to use tiers. I have Schaub in the same tier as Eli and Romo with no particuliar order at that point. I also have Rivers in that same tier. I haven't quite decided if I want to put Rodgers in tier 1 with Brees, Manning, and Brady, or this tier with these guys. I've been a bit back and forth on that, but Schaub I'd lump in with Romo and Eli but certainly not ahead.


He's a talented QB, I'll just leave it at that, he does tend to get overrated at times due to fantasy football but he is good.
I definitely agree about ranking players in tiers is a much more effective and logical ranking system opposed ranking them one by one.


If I had to tier the QB's it would look something like this...

Tier 1
Manning
Brees
Brady
Rivers

Tier 2
Rodgers
Favre
Roethlisberger

Tier 3
Romo
Schaub
McNabb
Palmer
Eli

Tier 4
Ryan
Flacco
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Old 07-29-2010, 11:08 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Seamus2602 View Post
Personally I wouldn't take any of those Quarterbacks over him. I think Ben Roethlisberger is a very good Quarterback, but vastly overated as well. In the same vein as Eli Manning. Because they won Superbowls with really good defences does not make them outstanding Quarterbacks. Eli is a decent starter with nothing special about him. Matty Ice has had one good season followed by one not so good season. Romo is consistently inconsistent.
Eli is just a decent starter? Didn't watch him carry a beaten up gmen team to 8-8 without being able to step into his throws last year did you. Our D was pathetic, our OL and running game fell apart, our young receivers were inconsistent and eli had a break in one foot and plantar facitis (spl?) in the other, yet we still matched the Texans record last year in just as tough of a division. I don't mind people who don't consider Eli a near elite QB, but to say there's nothing special about him is to ignore the fact that he's one of the best late game QBs in the NFL. And romo's consistently inconsistent? What is this 2007?

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Originally Posted by Scotty D View Post
Holy ****,

1. There are few people in this thread arguing for Schaub.

2. None of them are using the fantasy stats as a reason for his ranking.

3. How the **** do you think QBs get points in fantasy football?

4. Eli Manning was living off his defensive line.

5. I've seen Romo make enough bonehead throws to not trust him.

6. Schaub-Romo-Manning are probably pretty equally ranked in the grand scheme of things and Schaub is my personal preference.

7. Not everyone slurp a derps the NFC East.
Eli Manning living off of the DL? Again you should check your calendar and realize this is no longer 2007.

I just don't see other than the numbers what makes Schaub a top ten QB, and even in this thread although he isn't being called top 5, he's getting mentioned right behind that top 5 of Manning, Brady, Brees, Rivers and Rodgers. He's been injury prone, actually missing time due to injuries, I haven't seen him take over games late the way Eli does and I've just seen too many throws that were bailed out by a great receiver the way people used to criticize Eli for throwing up some passes that would've been in complete if it hadn't been Plax that was going up to get them.
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Old 07-29-2010, 11:10 AM    (permalink
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Schaub is the newest king of garbage time statistics.)
Texans played alot of close games and Schaub was the one with Andre Johnson constantly bringing them back into games.
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Old 07-29-2010, 11:22 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by LonghornsLegend View Post
I have Schaub in the same tier as Eli and Romo with no particuliar order at that point. I also have Rivers in that same tier.

Going to disagree.

After the big 3 Rivers starts the list of the next group of QB's, he is without a doubt atleast to me better then Schaub,Eli and Romo.
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Old 07-29-2010, 01:33 PM    (permalink
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Having the best WR in the game is what makes him good. The Texans finally had a decent OL that kept him off of the ground. A lot of it is the fantasy numbers because Houston has a horrible running game so the team passes the ball a lot. He also has Owen Daniels as well as AJ.
Yea aaron rodgers is hurting when he has to throw to donald driver, jermichael finley, and greg jennings, how does he manage? Daniels played half the season. A wide receiver can't take all the credit for making his QB look good. Plug in sage rosenfels as the starter and we wouldn't be talking about AJ as the best receiver in football.
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Old 07-29-2010, 01:44 PM    (permalink
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Eli is still so ridiculously underrated on this board.

I wonder how guys like Rogers, Rivers, and Scaub would deal with playing in the Meadowlands. There's a reason why Eli is statistically better on the road than at home.

I'm interested to see how passing games fare at the new Meadowlands this winter.
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Old 07-29-2010, 02:24 PM    (permalink
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the funniest thing is that if the Giants had ANY semblance of a defense last year and made the playoffs, people would start realizing how good Eli is and how good a year he had last year. Instead, the D gives up a million points a game, Giants go 8-8, miss the playoffs and Eli's outstanding year with the most unproven group of WR's and no ground game got over looked. Everyone said the biggest weakness for the Giants last year was the inexperienced WR corps and Eli was still outstanding.

And we all know, how me, a well...fairly large homer should feel about Tony Romo...but yea I think I would take Romo over Schaub. and I'm a pretty big Schaub fan. Actually, they're all pretty even, Eli, Romo, and Schaub. Top 5 for Schaub? that's silly. mainly i'm peeved at these feeble and assinine shots at Eli (and some at Romo) as why Schaub is vastly superior.
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Old 07-29-2010, 02:44 PM    (permalink
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Eli is still so ridiculously underrated on this board.
when you're as reserved and quiet as he is, it's hard for people to hype you
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Old 07-29-2010, 05:09 PM    (permalink
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I agree Eli is insanely underrated. Definitely better than Schaub. After the big 3, Rivers, Rodgers, and probably Favre, Eli could be in the discussion.
He had his best year last year and no one noticed. He plays in an insanely difficult environment (as was noted). He has a Peyton like calm and his field vision is very good. Plus I know the argument is cliche, but he did win a Super Bowl...and that was no ordinary Super Bowl. Guy was clutch, and handled the pressure. He's done it all now, just needs to get more respect.
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Old 07-29-2010, 05:10 PM    (permalink
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Eli is still so ridiculously underrated on this board.

I wonder how guys like Rogers, Rivers, and Scaub would deal with playing in the Meadowlands. There's a reason why Eli is statistically better on the road than at home.

I'm interested to see how passing games fare at the new Meadowlands this winter.
Why even add the on this board? Only place he gets any sort of hype is with giants fans and homers. It's not just the weather either, as BBD loves to point out where one of the only teams that still runs a lot of I-formation and we run the ball more than almost any other team that has a franchise QB, not sure on the exact numbers but we're up there. Eli's stats will never be as good as Eli is, so he'll never get the respect he deserves from people who don't watch him regularly. I've always been a believer but a know a lot of Giants fans where even dis-missing him before that superbowl run when he had shown that he can take over games when he had to going all the way back to his first year as a starter when he beat the Broncos in week two.

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the funniest thing is that if the Giants had ANY semblance of a defense last year and made the playoffs, people would start realizing how good Eli is and how good a year he had last year. Instead, the D gives up a million points a game, Giants go 8-8, miss the playoffs and Eli's outstanding year with the most unproven group of WR's and no ground game got over looked. Everyone said the biggest weakness for the Giants last year was the inexperienced WR corps and Eli was still outstanding.

And we all know, how me, a well...fairly large homer should feel about Tony Romo...but yea I think I would take Romo over Schaub. and I'm a pretty big Schaub fan. Actually, they're all pretty even, Eli, Romo, and Schaub. Top 5 for Schaub? that's silly. mainly i'm peeved at these feeble and assinine shots at Eli (and some at Romo) as why Schaub is vastly superior.
Hell if Eli had just been healthy all year and didn't have those 4-5 weeks where he couldn't step into throws we would've still made the playoffs despite the pathetic D, that straight up quit on Sheridan, running game that was decimated by injuries along the OL and RB corps, and those young WRs. Eli's definitely in that second tier of QBs and I love having him, he's the exact type of athlete I love to root for, constantly under-rated but always manages to give his team a chance to win.

As for Romo he's just too good of a person and QB for even me as a giants fan to hate on. I have no gripes putting Schaub in the same tier as Eli and Romo, he's put up big numbers on a talented offense that relied on him heavily, but what irks me is how a lot fo the QB rankings on here go Manning, Brees, Brady (those 3 moving around), Rivers, Rodgers, Schaub, etc. He's not as good as Rivers and although Rodgers has also become over-rated on here, he's not on par with any of the top 4, I do think he's still a click above Schaub.

My personal QB rankings go
Tier 1
Peyton
Brady
Brees
All 3 are very close and depending on when you ask me they'll swap places with one another.

Tier 2
Rivers

He's overcoming Norv Turner and some good luck away from adding the ring that'll put him in that top tier

Tier 3
Eli
Romo
Rodgers
Favre
Schaub
Big Ben

These guys also switch spots and if Rodgers has the year everyone's expecting he should be at the top and could even join Rivers in the ring away from Elite category. But Eli was phenomenal last year despite everything that happened and Romo's a guy who's just kept improving his game, Favre's going to **** the bed, but he's a regular season stud, Schaub's shown he can put up points which is all you can ask a QB to do if he has a defense that can protect the lead and Big Ben's come through in the clutch so many times for Pittsburgh that despite being a ******** man child "huck em...chuck em...football!" he's worth putting in this category.

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when you're as reserved and quiet as he is, it's hard for people to hype you
That and his under-whelming stats, the chargers thing from when he was drafted and that he's the QB of a NY team. There's a lot working against Eli getting the kind of hype and love he deserves. That said I don't mind, I love him and wouldn't trade him for any QB in the league because he's not only a great QB when he takes over, but he's got a great feel for when he needs to take things in his own hands and when to let the running game pound away, he's remarkably tough as he's played through some ridiculous injuries that would have to be exaggerated if I hadn't heard about them from people who know and he's proof that "clutchness" exists.
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Old 07-29-2010, 11:51 PM    (permalink
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Schaub is a good but a somewhat frustrating QB for Texans fans I'm sure. He's close to being elite, but he lacks that essential late game/clutch ability that an elite QB needs. He's also quite injury prone. Every sack or hit, Texans fans have got to be holding their breath.

It's not too late for him to develop the clutch ability and put injury behind him for good, but if he doesn't start quick he might not be a fixture for much longer in Houston. It would be a tough move because he doesn't suck, he just might not have what it takes to be truely valuable for them.

Usually QBs who put up these numbers are going to come through enough here and there to remain the starter until their game totally slips away, but Schuab seems to be just a little too short in this regard and the Texans might jump on another opportunity if one comes along. 2010 will be a key season for him.
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Old 07-30-2010, 12:24 AM    (permalink
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Schaub is a good but a somewhat frustrating QB for Texans fans I'm sure. He's close to being elite, but he lacks that essential late game/clutch ability that an elite QB needs. He's also quite injury prone. Every sack or hit, Texans fans have got to be holding their breath.

It's not too late for him to develop the clutch ability and put injury behind him for good, but if he doesn't start quick he might not be a fixture for much longer in Houston. It would be a tough move because he doesn't suck, he just might not have what it takes to be truely valuable for them.

Usually QBs who put up these numbers are going to come through enough here and there to remain the starter until their game totally slips away, but Schuab seems to be just a little too short in this regard and the Texans might jump on another opportunity if one comes along. 2010 will be a key season for him.
It's going to be difficult to replace Matt Schaub. I really don't see why they would. He's not the problem in Houston. It's the defense and run game.
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Old 07-30-2010, 01:27 PM    (permalink
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Schaub isn't clutch? He isn't the one kicking the fieldgoals. He led the team down for game tieing/winning field goals multiple times only to see the kicker miss them EVERY time. Winning is everything, but you can't say he doesn't perform underpressure. He put the team in a position to win thats all he can do. Is he top 5, no, but what has Rodgers done that puts him above Schaub?

Schaub threw for the 6th most yards in NFL history last with year and that was with two starting guards out, a pro bowl tight end out, and no running game. Also, how is Schaub a product of a system? No one says this about Brady, Manning, Rodgers, or Rivers. Its the West Coast offense. I guess that means Montanna was a product of the system. If the system is so effective then why are QBs coveted so much?
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Old 07-30-2010, 01:50 PM    (permalink
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My rankings in the other thread were for AFTER this season is played. I put him over Eli and Romo because I was choosing who I wanted going forward. I wasn't ranking previous accomplishments.

For all the people saying he is only good because of Andre Johnson what do you want him to do? Not throw it to him? How is that even relevant. Manning had Harrison, Wayne, Clark. Just because a QB has an All Pro WR you can't hold it against him. Tom Brady should try playing with scrubs and see what numbers he puts up, OH WAIT THEY TRIED THAT AND IT FAILED. The next year they got Welker, Moss and look what happened.
Fail? Brady won 3 Super Bowls with scrubs. Ya, in 2007, they went into "F-U" mode, but I wouldn't say "fail" when the guy has 3 rings throwing to garbage.

As for Schaub...I'm on the fence. Ya, he has Andre and Daniels is good, but he's got nothing outside of those two. It's amazing that he was able to put up those yardage numbers with literally crap outside of those two targets.

But it's tough to tell how good the guy really is. Remember, this is the same system that made Jake Plummer and Brian Griese (and Jay Cutler) Pro Bowlers. I want to see him do it again and stop getting injured before I even rank the guy, to be honest. It wasn't that long ago that we were talking about them drafting a QB to replace him, and not long before that that Sage Rosenfels was threatening his job as the starter.

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Old 07-30-2010, 01:58 PM    (permalink
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As for Schaub...I'm on the fence. Ya, he has Andre and Daniels is good, but he's got nothing outside of those two. It's amazing that he was able to put up those yardage numbers with literally crap outside of those two targets.
Kevin Walter is a good second receiver.
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Old 07-30-2010, 02:29 PM    (permalink
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except that we were talking about JUST THAT after 2008 when rosenfels started 1/3 of the games. shockingly, his numbers in those 5/6 games (41/505/3) add up to right around 1/3 of his season totals. meaning he experienced nearly no drop off, whether schaub or rosenfels was starting.
Seems like it's entirely beside the point of the thread, considering Rosenfels turned the ball over 12 times in those six games he played, didn't manage a winning record in his starts, and simply didn't manage the offense as well.

Anyone can throw the ball to Andre Johnson, but to act like that's all Schaub does to post his numbers is to reveal that you've not watched nearly enough of the Texans.
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Old 07-30-2010, 03:05 PM    (permalink
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Sorry, I was speaking more generally to the direction of the thread and not as much towards you.
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Old 07-30-2010, 03:36 PM    (permalink
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Sorry, I was speaking more generally to the direction of the thread and not as much towards you.
I didn't mean to imply that Schaub is only successful because of AJ, I just haven't been sold on him yet as a near elite QB, probably because I haven't watched him enough. From what I have seen he's not as good as his numbers, which are fantastic, but IMO are over-inflated because he's asked to throw so much since that's where their best talent is. I'm not saying he isn't a good QB or even a top 10 QB (see my rankings further up the page), I was just hoping someone who's seen him play a lot more than me could break down his play and convince me that he's a near elite QB so that when I watch the Texans this year I know what to be looking for. Plus I've got a buddy who's a texans fan so I'm probably going to be betting on their games fairly regularly with him so a little research doesn't hurt.
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Old 07-31-2010, 12:38 AM    (permalink
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Schaub isn't clutch? He isn't the one kicking the fieldgoals. He led the team down for game tieing/winning field goals multiple times only to see the kicker miss them EVERY time. Winning is everything, but you can't say he doesn't perform underpressure. He put the team in a position to win thats all he can do. Is he top 5, no, but what has Rodgers done that puts him above Schaub?

Schaub threw for the 6th most yards in NFL history last with year and that was with two starting guards out, a pro bowl tight end out, and no running game. Also, how is Schaub a product of a system? No one says this about Brady, Manning, Rodgers, or Rivers. Its the West Coast offense. I guess that means Montanna was a product of the system. If the system is so effective then why are QBs coveted so much?
If Schaub was clutch then the game wouldnt be down to a field goal.
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Old 07-31-2010, 06:45 AM    (permalink
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I like Schaub. I have him as a top 10 guy.

He reminds me an awful lot of Phillip Rivers when you evaluate his skill set. When you look at the #s both qbs put up, they are awfully similar. And Rivers has better weapons than Schaub.

Now of course #s don't tell the whole story, so I won't use that as the main basis of my argument, but when you evaluate them they are very similar.

Same arm strength (draw), similar accuracy (slight nod to Rivers), similar pocket presence but Schaub is more mobile (nod to Schaub), presnap adjustments are the same (draw), both do a good job of identifying hot routes (draw), both do a good job making reads and anticipating routes (slight nod to Rivers), etc.

They're very close as players. Which goes back to why I don't get why they are viewed so differently by so many people. Schaub is a slightly less accurate but more mobile version of Phillip Rivers. Just watch them play. Watch them play, then tell me that they aren't almost identical as players. Same quick release, same everything. They are very similar players.

I will say this though, Rivers is clearly the more clutch qb. And he's more proven as well, and yes, that does count for something.

I don't want to hear about how Schaub has Andre Johnson. Give me a better reason than that. So does Peyton suck bc he has Wayne, Clark, Addai, Garcon, and Collie? Does Brady suck bc he has Randy Moss? Rivers with Gates and VJax? Romo with Austin, Witten, and now Dez?

Schaub is legit. He's better than Matt Ryan (for now), who has been very prematurely annointed as the next Peyton Manning by the media.
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Old 07-31-2010, 06:49 AM    (permalink
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Eli is still so ridiculously underrated on this board.

I wonder how guys like Rogers, Rivers, and Scaub would deal with playing in the Meadowlands. There's a reason why Eli is statistically better on the road than at home.

I'm interested to see how passing games fare at the new Meadowlands this winter.
I don't waste my time arguing it anymore. It's pretty clear to me that when it comes to Eli, people who hate him will always hate him and find new excuses to hate him (even though Eli's pretty much shot down just about every knock that people have made of him over the years), and those that like him will always like him. There's no medium with Eli.
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Old 07-31-2010, 11:13 AM    (permalink
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I watched this, but the thing that stood out to me was how ridiculous Andre Johnson was in that game.
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