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Old 07-31-2010, 11:24 AM    (permalink
Brent
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makes me wonder how different the world would be if the lions had taken him instead of rogers.
probably not much different
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Old 07-31-2010, 12:26 PM    (permalink
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i just finished watching a bunch of schaub highlights and i think you're missing something between rivers and schaub that causes some off the differentiation. i've seen rivers make some 'wow' throws. i have never seen schaub make a wow throw. i couldn't find a good example of what i mean by that for rivers, but take http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8UvCxmhlUxQ for example. there isn't a throw schaub makes that a starting nfl qb shouldn't make every single time. that doesn't mean i think he's worse, he still made all of the throws, but there's nothing there that's going to elevate my perception of him.

that said, if you ignore some of the little quirks in throwing motion, then you're absolutely right: every ball either throws looks remarkably similar.
What in particular do you mean by wow throw? Because if you're talking about a throw that was bulleted in between 3 defenders with pinpoint velocity, I don't think you'll see that from either of these guys. Neither of them have the arm strength to make what I interpret as a wow throw (see Brett Favre, Jay Cutler).

Now, if you mean a deadly accurate ball that was put in the breadbasket with perfectly timed anticipation, then yes, Rivers does that quite a bit. He's probably the most accurate qb in the league, and that is one distinguishing characteristic between him and Schaub. To be fair though, I think Schaub is pretty accurate himself. He's not inaccurate, let's put it that way. He's got plenty of accuracy to make all the throws, as you have pointed out.

Contrarily however, Schaub has more mobility than Rivers. And that's another difference, but this one favors Schaub. Again, to be fair, their pocket presence is a draw. Schaub is more mobile, but his presence in the pocket is almost identical to Rivers.

Which all goes back to me saying that Schaub is a less accurate but more mobile version of Rivers.

Even their numbers are relatively the same by comparison. The release is somewhat different, but both snap the ball out quickly and almost at the same release point as well.

They really are very similar, to me, the main difference being Rivers being the superior qb in the 2 minute drill.
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Old 07-31-2010, 12:39 PM    (permalink
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What in particular do you mean by wow throw? Because if you're talking about a throw that was bulleted in between 3 defenders with pinpoint velocity, I don't think you'll see that from either of these guys. Neither of them have the arm strength to make what I interpret as a wow throw (see Brett Favre, Jay Cutler).
I'm glad there are a few non-fans who can look past the picks and see that he can make some damn fine throws. After a few years of watching Kyle Orton's dead ducks beyond 20 yards, the very first game I watched with Cutler blew me away with just how awesome of an arm he's got.
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Old 07-31-2010, 12:45 PM    (permalink
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I'm glad there are a few non-fans who can look past the picks and see that he can make some damn fine throws. After a few years of watching Kyle Orton's dead ducks beyond 20 yards, the very first game I watched with Cutler blew me away with just how awesome of an arm he's got.
I'm a Jay Cutler fan. I think in the right environment, he can thrive and reestablish himself as a top 10 qb in this league.

Having that said, Cutler threads the needle way too much for his own good, and it got exposed this year with his INT totals. He needs to do a better job of looking off defenders.

But I think he'll get there. I don't know if Martz was the right guy to be his OC in Chicago, but I think Cutler will eventually get back to form once they put more talent around him.

If Lovie gets fired and Gary Kubiak gets fired, Chicago needs to take a long hard look at Kubiak.
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Old 07-31-2010, 12:55 PM    (permalink
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If Schaub was clutch then the game wouldnt be down to a field goal.
Then Tom Brady shouldn't get credit for being clutch then in a lot of his wins. Especially in the playoffs where a lot of his "clutch moments" have come down to an Adam Vinatieri field goal. I know this discussion isn't about Tom Brady, but you can't really fault Matt Schaub for playing his role. If his kicker misses a field goal, especially one that is a chip shot, it doesn't mean that Schaub hasn't done his job by putting his team in a spot to win the ball game.

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i just finished watching a bunch of schaub highlights and i think you're missing something between rivers and schaub that causes some off the differentiation. i've seen rivers make some 'wow' throws. i have never seen schaub make a wow throw. i couldn't find a good example of what i mean by that for rivers, but take http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8UvCxmhlUxQ for example. there isn't a throw schaub makes that a starting nfl qb shouldn't make every single time. that doesn't mean i think he's worse, he still made all of the throws, but there's nothing there that's going to elevate my perception of him.

that said, if you ignore some of the little quirks in throwing motion, then you're absolutely right: every ball either throws looks remarkably similar.
I disagree. Schaub is a lot more accurate than a lot of quarterbacks in the NFL. If most quarterbacks could throw the ball like Matt Schaub does, then it would be easier to find a franchise signal caller. That pass to Andre Davis down the middle between three defenders is not something a lot of starters in this league can make. Even if they could, a quarterback's instincts and quick decision making aren't something that can always be coached in my opinion. The "it" factor if you will. Schaub has that trait.
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Old 07-31-2010, 01:06 PM    (permalink
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Schaub is a Top Ten QB, no doubt. At this point, I'd probably put him 6th on my list. As has been stated, he has poise, accuracy, mobility to get it done.

One of the things I do like about Schaub is his decision making ability. It's not Peyton Manning, but he makes very good decisions. People talk about Andre Johnson making him what he is, but Schaub knows when to throw to Andre and what he can do, what balls he can get, and coverages he can beat. Look early last year, Schaub utilized Owen Daniels almost more than Johnson. He knows who to get the ball to and when, and that is an underrated quality.

I loved Schaub when he came out of school, and on the Falcons, this hasn't changed.
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Old 07-31-2010, 01:44 PM    (permalink
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Schaub is a Top Ten QB, no doubt. At this point, I'd probably put him 6th on my list. As has been stated, he has poise, accuracy, mobility to get it done.

One of the things I do like about Schaub is his decision making ability. It's not Peyton Manning, but he makes very good decisions. People talk about Andre Johnson making him what he is, but Schaub knows when to throw to Andre and what he can do, what balls he can get, and coverages he can beat. Look early last year, Schaub utilized Owen Daniels almost more than Johnson. He knows who to get the ball to and when, and that is an underrated quality.

I loved Schaub when he came out of school, and on the Falcons, this hasn't changed.
That might actually be a good thing if Houston gets to the playoffs.
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Old 07-31-2010, 01:46 PM    (permalink
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They really are very similar, to me, the main difference being Rivers being the superior qb in the 2 minute drill.
This is basically what it comes down to. I would have said that the difference between Schaub and Rivers prior to the 2009 season was basically nil, but Rivers showed a lot with his late game performances down the stretch for San Diego.

In general, I think the difference in the "wow throw" category comes down partially to the fact that when it comes to pass deep to a receivers back shoulder, Rivers has to throw it a lot closer to the defensive back. Jackson and Floyd aren't generating the kid of space that Johnson creates, and neither are quite as good at that last second contact then separation before the catch as AJ is.
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Old 07-31-2010, 01:50 PM    (permalink
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and maybe that's true. i'm still trying to catch up on some highlights, but from what i've seen to this point, he hasn't made a throw that i don't think 70% of the rest of the nfl couldn't have made. that said, he's seemed to make that throw every single time, which *would* distinguish him from most other nfl qbs. again, i'm not suggesting that it's a negative, just that i haven't seen anything special. if you have a youtube that you think is a particularly good example of throws most other guys couldn't make, other than the one i think we disagree on, i'd love to see it.
Eh, I could care less about the "wow" throws. Aarron Brooks made a boatload of those when he was with New Orleans, but his decision making was inconsistent. And those go hand in hand.

Schaub gets the job done and that is what matters. He has a lot of velocity on his ball and the spiral is usually nice as well. And he's pretty accurate. One throw I don't think a lot of quarterbacks can consistently make is that throw to Andre Davis between three defenders that was on the highlight reel you showcased. I can't picture someone like David Garrard or Troy Edwards making that throw.
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Old 07-31-2010, 01:56 PM    (permalink
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and maybe that's true. i'm still trying to catch up on some highlights, but from what i've seen to this point, he hasn't made a throw that i don't think 70% of the rest of the nfl couldn't have made. that said, he's seemed to make that throw every single time, which *would* distinguish him from most other nfl qbs. again, i'm not suggesting that it's a negative, just that i haven't seen anything special. if you have a youtube that you think is a particularly good example of throws most other guys couldn't make, other than the one i think we disagree on, i'd love to see it.



is this really any different than any other big arm qb? elway did it, favre did it... not suggesting cutler is a future hall of famer, but i think it gets overblown way too much (not that i think you're doing that).



for schaub/rivers, this is exactly what i mean. off the top of my head, i remember a couple of rivers throws in the senior bowl and in his last bowl game at nc state (yes, college, not nfl, i know, but it's all that's coming to mind) that were just incredible, pinpoint passes. i don't think i've seen a similar throw from schaub that left my jaw hanging. again, not a bad thing and not indicative that he's a bad qb, but i think if he had some of those moments, more people would rate him higher or at least as high.
Cutler: it does get overblown too much. It's still something he should work on, especially after seeing him force so many throws last year. I think a big reason for that was bc he lacked talent to work with and for every wow throw he made, law of averages tells you he's gonna throw that pick too if you force it too much, which he did last year. I think he did it bc he was trying to make diamonds out of dog youknowwhat.

I've seen Schaub put it in some spots that made me say wow. Not as regularly as Rivers, but he does it.

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This is basically what it comes down to. I would have said that the difference between Schaub and Rivers prior to the 2009 season was basically nil, but Rivers showed a lot with his late game performances down the stretch for San Diego.

In general, I think the difference in the "wow throw" category comes down partially to the fact that when it comes to pass deep to a receivers back shoulder, Rivers has to throw it a lot closer to the defensive back. Jackson and Floyd aren't generating the kid of space that Johnson creates, and neither are quite as good at that last second contact then separation before the catch as AJ is.[/b]
The opposite end of that spectrum is bc Rivers has such huge targets, he just has to throw it up there and let them get it. I've seen him do this quite a bit, and he admitted himself that when he sees his guys in single coverage, he just throws it deep down the field and let's them make a play (there's nothing wrong with that btw). AJ Smith knows River's limitations (physically), that's why he drafts such big targets. Every single guy on that roster is huge. And Turner's scheme is perfect for Rivers as well. Give the organization credit, they identified the perfect scheme for their qb and the type of WR he needs. That's good scouting.

So I don't know if you can count that for or against either guy.
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Old 07-31-2010, 02:04 PM    (permalink
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So I don't know if you can count that for or against either guy.
I hope that's not how my statement came across.

I was just implicating that the Chargers deep pass attack tends to make the throws look more exciting because Jackson and Floyd use their height and jumping to make catches over defensive backs. Meanwhile, the Texans deep pass attack tends to make things look a tad bit easier because, while Andre Johnson could be making those catches like Jackson and Floyd do, he has the speed to create real space.

Both quarterback benefit hugely from the size of their targets, but Schaub doesn't have to throw as many balls near defensive backs because he can lead Johnson so much. I wasn't trying to knock either offensive system. In fact, I love what the Chargers have done from a conceptual standpoint (which is hard for me to admit).
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Old 07-31-2010, 02:09 PM    (permalink
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I hope that's not how my statement came across.

I was just implicating that the Chargers deep pass attack tends to make the throws look more exciting because Jackson and Floyd use their height and jumping to make catches over defensive backs. Meanwhile, the Texans deep pass attack tends to make things look a tad bit easier because, while Andre Johnson could be making those catches like Jackson and Floyd do, he has the speed to create real space.

Both quarterback benefit hugely from the size of their targets, but Schaub doesn't have to throw as many balls near defensive backs because he can lead Johnson so much. I wasn't trying to knock either offensive system. In fact, I love what the Chargers have done form a conceptual standpoint (which is hard for me to admit).
Oh ok, I understand now.

Yeah, I agree, I love what the Chargers have done conceptually on offense. I think they have potentially the most dangerous passing attack in the league, for the simple fact that, how do you cover them all? You can't draw up schemes to cover size. If you blitz, that lives 1 big guy in single coverage in a hot route, and that's very tough to cover no matter how talented your defense is.

And if you sit back, you give them ample time to run those deep routes, isolate DBs, and play jumpball.

And if you drop everyone back to take all of that away, you give Rivers a nice checkdown in Sproles, who can generate tons of yac in space bc the WRs cleared out the underneath for him to make people miss.

It's a great scheme. I still stand by my beilef that they made a huge mistake passing on Dez Bryant in this draft. If you added Dez to that core with Jackson and Gates in that vertical scheme that uses size to its advantage, I think they would have easily been the best offense in the league.
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Old 07-31-2010, 02:23 PM    (permalink
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I think part of the issue for San Diego is how much they've struggled to keep ball-control. Sure, they crank out yardage in the passing game like it's nothing, but since Tomlinson fell off, they've struggled to keep their defense off the field. Their system back when Tomlinson and Turner were around was perhaps better fitting to the team, because they could hold the ball for a long time and when they got the lead and the other offense was forced to pass, their pass rush took over.

I love the Chargers offense, but I also get that with a defense that is something less than brilliant even if Merriman has a nice year, being able to hold onto the ball and extend your possession time needs to be a huge priority. In regards to the Dez Bryant thing, I sort of see where you're coming at, but I imagine it hinges entirely on your attitude towards Ryan Mathews. I happen to think the Matthews pick was great, that he's going to be a great player, and that it does a lot more towards improving the playoffs chances than maximizing one aspect of the team would.

And yes, admitting all this about the Chargers slowly kills me inside. I can only hope that this year is a good one for Oakland and that they can make a huge step towards winning the division down the road, but I think the Chargers, if that offense can achieve balance and that defense takes just a small step forward, will probably be the best team in the AFC. They've been my Superbowl choice for months now.


Side note:
With all this talk of the size of the Chargers and the stretching of the defense they attain, how long will it be before we start seeing an emphasis on bigger defensive backs? This would have to start young, with colleges placing athletes at corner or safety instead of wide receiver, but the size difference in that matchup has been skewed in favor of wide receivers for a long time now. Teams should be placing a premium on having a guy who can protect the deep ball without having an insane vertical, but instead through size and strength. Right now there's a lack of options there, but maybe Robert Sands can turn out to be the guy I thought Taylor Mays could have been to help set this in motion.
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Old 07-31-2010, 02:31 PM    (permalink
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Yeah, one of the main reasons why I thought Dez would have been a much better pick is bc I view Dez as a stud, and I view Mathews as a run of the mill RB.

Mathews to me is Matt Forte. Does everything well, but nothing great. I feel you can find those kind of backs at any point in the draft. I definitely don't see Mathews as a guy worthy of a top 12 pick. No way.

I understand the need for a RB, I just don't understand moving up to take Ryan Mathews. He is not worth what they gave up for him.

As for bigger CBs, I don't know if that will be a trend. Ideally, you want a bigger CB with speed to boot, it's just hard finding them. And with the rule changes, a CB without speed is as useful as a typewriter.

CBs as a whole have become more valuable than they already are. We just saw a draft where teams reached for CBs early because with teams running 3 WRs so often nowadays, having 3 good CBs is not a luxury anymore, its a necessity.
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Old 07-31-2010, 03:50 PM    (permalink
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that's a horrific analogy, bordering on strawman.
Disagree completely.



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and no one's talking about either of them as anything more than bottom 5 starters in the league. but it's just not, imo, a 'special' throw that only a few guys could've made. it was a pass that most nfl quarterbacks should make the majority of the time. but again, my argument was to the perception of schaub not being a top qb, not to whether or not he actually is.
I think only a handful of quarterbacks are going to be able to make that throw on a consistent basis. And those are the ones that are very precise in their throws. I think that is what separates the respectable starters from the rest of the other quarterbacks in the NFL. I disagree that that throw in particular is a throw that most quarterbacks should be able to make. Because most don't. At least not on Sundays...unless you're one of the top dogs in the NFL at QB.
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Old 07-31-2010, 05:22 PM    (permalink
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With all this talk of the size of the Chargers and the stretching of the defense they attain, how long will it be before we start seeing an emphasis on bigger defensive backs? This would have to start young, with colleges placing athletes at corner or safety instead of wide receiver, but the size difference in that matchup has been skewed in favor of wide receivers for a long time now. Teams should be placing a premium on having a guy who can protect the deep ball without having an insane vertical, but instead through size and strength. Right now there's a lack of options there, but maybe Robert Sands can turn out to be the guy I thought Taylor Mays could have been to help set this in motion.
If I could find a guy that was potentially a "big CB" I would wager that he hit a spurt in college, because guys that are fast and big in HS end up playing LB.
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Old 07-31-2010, 06:17 PM    (permalink
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If I could find a guy that was potentially a "big CB" I would wager that he hit a spurt in college, because guys that are fast and big in HS end up playing LB.
I was more refering to height rather than bulk, so maybe Mays was a bad example. I just see a lot of tall athletes go into college labeled as DB's or ATH's and they almost uniformly become wide receivers so long as they have decent hands. I'm just curious if that will shift at some point when a team keeps those guys at corner or safety and try to build a truly dominant pass defense. That said, we'd have to see someone defy that conventional wisdom first.
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Old 07-31-2010, 06:38 PM    (permalink
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What kinda height are we talking about here? I think after 6'1, your height starts becoming a detriment at the CB position. Your reflexes and agility needs to be at a much higher level compared to WRs, because you're reacting to the what the player you're defending is doing. Not to mention that tackling would be more difficult, as if it wasn't already for CBs. I just don't like the idea at all of having a 6'3 corner. What for? Most guys aren't left 1 on 1 anyway, have him play safety if you really like his physical abilities.
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Old 07-31-2010, 06:46 PM    (permalink
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What kinda height are we talking about here? I think after 6'1, your height starts becoming a detriment at the CB position. Your reflexes and agility needs to be at a much higher level compared to WRs, because you're reacting to the what the player you're defending is doing. Not to mention that tackling would be more difficult, as if it wasn't already for CBs. I just don't like the idea at all of having a 6'3 corner. What for? Most guys aren't left 1 on 1 anyway, have him play safety if you really like his physical abilities.
Because the way NFL offenses are heading, guys are left 1 on 1 more and more as offenses load the field with receivers.

I think you can find a benefit for taking a guy with safety size at corner (like, say, Asomugha), but when it comes to trying to stop 6-5 sprinters, it's obvious that most of the league is completely ill-prepared.
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Old 07-31-2010, 07:08 PM    (permalink
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Asomugha is a very rare exception, and even then he's not huge, compared to Calvin Johnson and Vincent Jackson and guys like that. I still don't like the idea. I think schools need to focus more on disciplining their players and keep them away from the diva mentality they're raised with. Good work ethic and technique at the corner position will allow you to succeed even if you're shorter than average and have just decent speed.
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Old 07-31-2010, 07:14 PM    (permalink
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I still don't like the idea. I think schools need to focus more on disciplining their players and keep them away from the diva mentality they're raised with.
Okay then? I have no idea what that has to do with what I posted.

Good technique and work ethic will not help you get to a ball flying in from above over a man who is 5-6" taller than you, can out-jump you, and outweighs you by twenty pounds. This is proven time and time again by the dominance being shown by recievers that have that much of a size advantage against corners.

I'm not saying fit a square peg in a round hole. I am saying that there are wide receivers playing today who would have probably made for dominant cornerbacks if they had been playing the position since the start of college and would have been able to legitimately stop the toss-up deep pass attacks that are gaining momentum in the NFL.
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Old 07-31-2010, 07:24 PM    (permalink
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Okay then? I have no idea what that has to do with what I posted.

Good technique and work ethic will not help you get to a ball flying in from above over a man who is 5-6" taller than you, can out-jump you, and outweighs you by twenty pounds. This is proven time and time again by the dominance being shown by recievers that have that much of a size advantage against corners.

I'm not saying fit a square peg in a round hole. I am saying that there are wide receivers playing today who would have probably made for dominant cornerbacks if they had been playing the position since the start of college and would have been able to legitimately stop the toss-up deep pass attacks that are gaining momentum in the NFL.
I said that in response to you mentioning that CFB coaches should start recruiting taller players to play the CB position.

How many situations is there in a game where two players are completely even as far as positioning deep down field? Maybe once a game? Twice? Even then, it's a dog fight for the ball. If a CB has better positioning on a WR, it's not like he can just catapult himself off the defender and go up for the ball. I just don't see how it would make such a huge difference that you would need to do something as drastic as changing recruiting, or how you decide who plays what position.
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Old 07-31-2010, 08:27 PM    (permalink
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And how much does a completion down the field effect the course of a game? Immensly. And, yes, if you're big and have tremendous ball awarness like Calvin Johnson, Andre Johnson, Randy Moss, or Larry Fitzgerald, you can catapult over defensive backs who are in good position. It happens all the time and these guys make their living doing it.

I'm suggesting that instead of universally putting all of your tall and fast players at wideout, it might be beneficial to put one or two at corner. The way the passing game is growing in the NFL, it will only raise the value of a good pass defense.
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Old 07-31-2010, 10:21 PM    (permalink
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And how much does a completion down the field effect the course of a game? Immensly. And, yes, if you're big and have tremendous ball awarness like Calvin Johnson, Andre Johnson, Randy Moss, or Larry Fitzgerald, you can catapult over defensive backs who are in good position. It happens all the time and these guys make their living doing it.

I'm suggesting that instead of universally putting all of your tall and fast players at wideout, it might be beneficial to put one or two at corner. The way the passing game is growing in the NFL, it will only raise the value of a good pass defense.
Not really because the rules work totally in favor of wide outs and basically handcuff corners to ridiculous extremes. Corners need instincts, timing, speed, quickness, and a pass rush. Height is something that can help, but not a requirement.
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Meanwhile, in hockey the other night, the Washington Capitals' Eric Belanger gets hit with a stick, loses EIGHT teeth, has an instant root canal in the locker room, comes back out and PLAYS and never says boo.

So new rule, NBA: Unless you have a root canal at halftime, SHUT UP AND PLAY!
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Old 07-31-2010, 10:29 PM    (permalink
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Not really because the rules work totally in favor of wide outs and basically handcuff corners to ridiculous extremes. Corners need instincts, timing, speed, quickness, and a pass rush. Height is something that can help, but not a requirement.
I actually disagree. With the current rules, it's harder and harder to blanket a guy without playing the ball and not draw a foul, but that should actually increase the amount of importance placed on size and ball skills. If you put a couple large cornerbacks out there with real wide receiver skills, they could majorly silence quite a few of the deep pass attacks in the NFL.

The only reason NFL offenses like the Chargers have so much success is becasuse tossing it up isn't much of a risk when all your receivers are almost assured to be able to touch the ball before a defensive back can. All a smaller defender can do in that situation is try and disrupt a receivers concentration. Increase the risk of a turnover and that all changes.
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