Schaub

[MetSox17]

What kinda height are we talking about here? I think after 6'1, your height starts becoming a detriment at the CB position. Your reflexes and agility needs to be at a much higher level compared to WRs, because you're reacting to the what the player you're defending is doing. Not to mention that tackling would be more difficult, as if it wasn't already for CBs. I just don't like the idea at all of having a 6'3 corner. What for? Most guys aren't left 1 on 1 anyway, have him play safety if you really like his physical abilities.

[Paranoidmoonduck]

Originally Posted by MetSox17

What kinda height are we talking about here? I think after 6'1, your height starts becoming a detriment at the CB position. Your reflexes and agility needs to be at a much higher level compared to WRs, because you're reacting to the what the player you're defending is doing. Not to mention that tackling would be more difficult, as if it wasn't already for CBs. I just don't like the idea at all of having a 6'3 corner. What for? Most guys aren't left 1 on 1 anyway, have him play safety if you really like his physical abilities.

Because the way NFL offenses are heading, guys are left 1 on 1 more and more as offenses load the field with receivers.

I think you can find a benefit for taking a guy with safety size at corner (like, say, Asomugha), but when it comes to trying to stop 6-5 sprinters, it's obvious that most of the league is completely ill-prepared.

[MetSox17]

Asomugha is a very rare exception, and even then he's not huge, compared to Calvin Johnson and Vincent Jackson and guys like that. I still don't like the idea. I think schools need to focus more on disciplining their players and keep them away from the diva mentality they're raised with. Good work ethic and technique at the corner position will allow you to succeed even if you're shorter than average and have just decent speed.

[Paranoidmoonduck]

Originally Posted by MetSox17

I still don't like the idea. I think schools need to focus more on disciplining their players and keep them away from the diva mentality they're raised with.

Okay then? I have no idea what that has to do with what I posted.

Good technique and work ethic will not help you get to a ball flying in from above over a man who is 5-6" taller than you, can out-jump you, and outweighs you by twenty pounds. This is proven time and time again by the dominance being shown by recievers that have that much of a size advantage against corners.

I'm not saying fit a square peg in a round hole. I am saying that there are wide receivers playing today who would have probably made for dominant cornerbacks if they had been playing the position since the start of college and would have been able to legitimately stop the toss-up deep pass attacks that are gaining momentum in the NFL.

[MetSox17]

Originally Posted by Paranoidmoonduck

Okay then? I have no idea what that has to do with what I posted.

Good technique and work ethic will not help you get to a ball flying in from above over a man who is 5-6" taller than you, can out-jump you, and outweighs you by twenty pounds. This is proven time and time again by the dominance being shown by recievers that have that much of a size advantage against corners.

I'm not saying fit a square peg in a round hole. I am saying that there are wide receivers playing today who would have probably made for dominant cornerbacks if they had been playing the position since the start of college and would have been able to legitimately stop the toss-up deep pass attacks that are gaining momentum in the NFL.

I said that in response to you mentioning that CFB coaches should start recruiting taller players to play the CB position.

How many situations is there in a game where two players are completely even as far as positioning deep down field? Maybe once a game? Twice? Even then, it's a dog fight for the ball. If a CB has better positioning on a WR, it's not like he can just catapult himself off the defender and go up for the ball. I just don't see how it would make such a huge difference that you would need to do something as drastic as changing recruiting, or how you decide who plays what position.

[Paranoidmoonduck]

And how much does a completion down the field effect the course of a game? Immensly. And, yes, if you're big and have tremendous ball awarness like Calvin Johnson, Andre Johnson, Randy Moss, or Larry Fitzgerald, you can catapult over defensive backs who are in good position. It happens all the time and these guys make their living doing it.

I'm suggesting that instead of universally putting all of your tall and fast players at wideout, it might be beneficial to put one or two at corner. The way the passing game is growing in the NFL, it will only raise the value of a good pass defense.

[BigDawg819]

Originally Posted by Paranoidmoonduck

And how much does a completion down the field effect the course of a game? Immensly. And, yes, if you're big and have tremendous ball awarness like Calvin Johnson, Andre Johnson, Randy Moss, or Larry Fitzgerald, you can catapult over defensive backs who are in good position. It happens all the time and these guys make their living doing it.

I'm suggesting that instead of universally putting all of your tall and fast players at wideout, it might be beneficial to put one or two at corner. The way the passing game is growing in the NFL, it will only raise the value of a good pass defense.

Not really because the rules work totally in favor of wide outs and basically handcuff corners to ridiculous extremes. Corners need instincts, timing, speed, quickness, and a pass rush. Height is something that can help, but not a requirement.

[Paranoidmoonduck]

Originally Posted by BigDawg819

Not really because the rules work totally in favor of wide outs and basically handcuff corners to ridiculous extremes. Corners need instincts, timing, speed, quickness, and a pass rush. Height is something that can help, but not a requirement.

I actually disagree. With the current rules, it's harder and harder to blanket a guy without playing the ball and not draw a foul, but that should actually increase the amount of importance placed on size and ball skills. If you put a couple large cornerbacks out there with real wide receiver skills, they could majorly silence quite a few of the deep pass attacks in the NFL.

The only reason NFL offenses like the Chargers have so much success is becasuse tossing it up isn't much of a risk when all your receivers are almost assured to be able to touch the ball before a defensive back can. All a smaller defender can do in that situation is try and disrupt a receivers concentration. Increase the risk of a turnover and that all changes.

[BigDawg819]

Originally Posted by Paranoidmoonduck

I actually disagree. With the current rules, it's harder and harder to blanket a guy without playing the ball and not draw a foul, but that should actually increase the amount of importance placed on size and ball skills. If you put a couple large cornerbacks out there with real wide receiver skills, they could majorly silence quite a few of the deep pass attacks in the NFL.

With that mentality Yao Ming should be the most dominate player in the NBA because he's the tallest

Originally Posted by Paranoidmoonduck

The only reason NFL offenses like the Chargers have so much success is becasuse tossing it up isn't much of a risk when all your receivers are almost assured to be able to touch the ball before a defensive back can. All a smaller defender can do in that situation is try and disrupt a receivers concentration. Increase the risk of a turnover and that all changes.

Really because I don't recall their White House visits over the years?

Yes their wideouts have more advantages in size, but they get shut down in crunch times by good defensive play in the playoffs.

[BigDawg819]

Originally Posted by Paranoidmoonduck

I actually disagree. With the current rules, it's harder and harder to blanket a guy without playing the ball and not draw a foul, but that should actually increase the amount of importance placed on size and ball skills. If you put a couple large cornerbacks out there with real wide receiver skills, they could majorly silence quite a few of the deep pass attacks in the NFL.

The only reason NFL offenses like the Chargers have so much success is becasuse tossing it up isn't much of a risk when all your receivers are almost assured to be able to touch the ball before a defensive back can. All a smaller defender can do in that situation is try and disrupt a receivers concentration. Increase the risk of a turnover and that all changes.

Smart corners make this happen along with a pass rush. If the QB is on the ground he's not throwing the ball.

[Paranoidmoonduck]

Originally Posted by BigDawg819

With that mentality Yao Ming should be the most dominate player in the NBA because he's the tallest.

This isn't even vaguely related to what I said. Read it again.

Really because I don't recall their White House visits over the years?

Yes their wideouts have more advantages in size, but they get shut down in crunch times by good defensive play in the playoffs.

This is also completely unrelated to what I'm talking about.

Smart corners make this happen along with a pass rush. If the QB is on the ground he's not throwing the ball.

Smart is a meaningless adjective here, so unless you'd like to extrapolate, I'm going to ignore that.

Bringing pass rush into this makes no sense, since all I'm talking about it a changing of the ideal physical requirements for a cornerback to match the rather amazing shift in the size of NFL wide receivers. But, even given that, a pass rush does not stop the ball from being thrown deep. If it did, then you'd be able to show me a defense that didn't surrender any deep completions last year. I'm going to assume that won't happen.

So that's pretty much strike three on strawman arguments. Thanks for playing.

[Shiver]

I like Schaub a lot, but unfortunately there is a glut of Quarterbacks with a resume/physical tool-set similar to his own. I would put him 8th on my personal list (I am on a Brett Favre strike so he doesn't count).

[BigDawg819]

Originally Posted by Paranoidmoonduck

This isn't even vaguely related to what I said. Read it again.



This is also completely unrelated to what I'm talking about.



Smart is a meaningless adjective here, so unless you'd like to extrapolate, I'm going to ignore that.

Bringing pass rush into this makes no sense, since all I'm talking about it a changing of the ideal physical requirements for a cornerback to match the rather amazing shift in the size of NFL wide receivers. But, even given that, a pass rush does not stop the ball from being thrown deep. If it did, then you'd be able to show me a defense that didn't surrender any deep completions last year. I'm going to assume that won't happen.

So that's pretty much strike three on strawman arguments. Thanks for playing.

No its you refusing to accept altering theories to your own. Height is an uncontrollable factor, whereas my theory requirements are tangible in and of the fact that they can be accomplished with good coaching and hard work by players of any height.

[Paranoidmoonduck]

Originally Posted by BigDawg819

No its you refusing to accept altering theories to your own. Height is an uncontrollable factor, whereas my theory requirements are tangible in and of the fact that they can be accomplished with good coaching and hard work by players of any height.

Where were these theories? You made a vague and stupid reference to height in a different spot altogether, some detrimental argument about my reference to a particular offense that was not at all at the heart of my point, and then a statement about a completely different aspect of football defense than I was refering to. Point out to me the theory in that, please.

I have no idea what you mean when you say that height is uncontrollable and that what you're talking about is tangible. Is height not tangible?

[Shiver]

The folly of trying to adjust for big receivers, drafting tall corners, is that it will put you in a world of hurt when you play against DeSean Jackson type receivers.

[BigDawg819]

Originally Posted by Paranoidmoonduck

Where were these theories? You made a vague and stupid reference to height in a different spot altogether, some detrimental argument about my reference to a particular offense that was not at all at the heart of my point, and then a statement about a completely different aspect of football defense than I was refering to. Point out to me the theory in that, please.

I have no idea what you mean when you say that height is uncontrollable and that what you're talking about is tangible. Is height not tangible?

Height is an uncontrollable factor in that it cannot be augmented, taught, or improved.

Instead of making some vague statement that is just at best a passing thought and passing it off as something that resembles a theory, work with something that can be improved upon like a pass rush or coaching.

[Paranoidmoonduck]

Originally Posted by Shiver

The folly of trying to adjust for big receivers, drafting tall corners, is that it will put you in a world of hurt when you play against DeSean Jackson type receivers.

Isn't that how it always goes though? Some team tries to counter-act some sort of offensive strategy and then some other team capitalizes on the weakness that exposes?

In a world where we recognize lots of different kinds of receivers, specialized for different aspects of an offensive attack, is it that ridiculous to suggest that there'd be a huge demand for having a defensive backfield that was built to be able each and every kind? I'm not suggesting that normal sized or even small cornerbacks are going anywhere, but I am suggesting that in a market where the NFL is saturated in tall wide receivers and basically completely lacking in tall cornerbacks, we could see a movement to change that imbalance.

Is any of that particularly crazy?

Height is an uncontrollable factor in that it cannot be augmented, taught, or improved.

Height can't be augmented, but it can be selected for. By the time a player reaches the NFL, much more of what is going on is selection rather than augmentation.

Instead of making some vague statement that is just at best a passing thought and passing it off as something that resembles a theory, work with something that can be improved upon like a pass rush or coaching.

Okay, two things...

(1) My statements have been anything but vague, although I can't even begin to say the same about your responses.

(2) I never used the phrase theory except in response to your use of it.

What I did do is off-handedly suggest a trend we may see down the road in the NFL. It wasn't even so much as a prediction as a loose hypothesis that was apparently so crazy that it's knocked the thread entirely off course.

Sorry to the OP for taking things another direction. It was not my intention.

[Shiver]

It is already happening, look at the Vontae Davis, Sean Smith, Aqib Talib, DRC as recent draft examples.

[Malaka]

Originally Posted by Shiver

It is already happening, look at the Vontae Davis, Sean Smith, Aqib Talib, DRC as recent draft examples.

Eh, DRC and Sean Smith are the only ones I'd consider "tall".

Davis is 5'11 pretty average for corners and Talib is 6'0/6'1 barely above average for corners. Whereas Smith is 6'3 and DRC is 6'2 with wheels.

[OzTitan]

Originally Posted by griff122

Schaub isn't clutch? He isn't the one kicking the fieldgoals. He led the team down for game tieing/winning field goals multiple times only to see the kicker miss them EVERY time. Winning is everything, but you can't say he doesn't perform underpressure. He put the team in a position to win thats all he can do. Is he top 5, no, but what has Rodgers done that puts him above Schaub?

Sometimes, elite QBs have to do more than get their team into FG range. That's just how it is. I think njx is touching on the point - where are his wow moments? not just awesome but effectively insignificant plays, but big time, game defining moments that he creates as the QB?

I'm not seeing everything Schaub does, but from what I can tell, he hasn't shown this yet. He seems to have the uncanny ability to play QB very well but with as little key moments as possible - you can often summarize the big games that big time QBs play in 2 or 3 plays.

Originally Posted by griff122

Schaub threw for the 6th most yards in NFL history last with year and that was with two starting guards out, a pro bowl tight end out, and no running game. Also, how is Schaub a product of a system? No one says this about Brady, Manning, Rodgers, or Rivers. Its the West Coast offense. I guess that means Montanna was a product of the system. If the system is so effective then why are QBs coveted so much?

Firstly, I don't think yards are really that big a deal, particularly these days where every year more and more QBs are getting over 4000, and secondly, QBs are coveted so much for those 'wow' moments that decide games that supplement their ability to work in the system. That's the key factor IMO. Sometimes those wow moments are so well timed and executed, the QB doesn't even have to be all that great and consistent in the system.

IMO, Peyton had a similar style to Schaub, but his consistency reached such a high level, and he owned his system so well, that it didn't really matter. If you're that good, you don't need spectacular moments to make the difference (well, I guess one could argue Peyton could have used more of them in the playoffs).

[Shane P. Hallam]

Originally Posted by OzTitan

Sometimes, elite QBs have to do more than get their team into FG range. That's just how it is. I think njx is touching on the point - where are his wow moments? not just awesome but effectively insignificant plays, but big time, game defining moments that he creates as the QB?

I don't think many people are arguing he is elite though...

[Rosebud]

Originally Posted by OzTitan

Sometimes, elite QBs have to do more than get their team into FG range. That's just how it is. I think njx is touching on the point - where are his wow moments? not just awesome but effectively insignificant plays, but big time, game defining moments that he creates as the QB?

I'm not seeing everything Schaub does, but from what I can tell, he hasn't shown this yet. He seems to have the uncanny ability to play QB very well but with as little key moments as possible - you can often summarize the big games that big time QBs play in 2 or 3 plays.

You're touching on what to me really defines a great QB. Banning often says that it's pointless to compare QBs in different systems because they're asked to do so many different things and in large part I agree with him, but that performance in the clutch to me is the exception. No matter what your system there come points in a season where a QB is depended on to take over the game, move his team down the field and get them the points they need, during this time I think is when we see the true difference between QB's quality shown. It's a huge part of why I love Eli so much, he's really the anti-peyton as he doesn't dominate for most of the game but when it comes down to those game deciding moments he simply takes over.

[Ness]

Schaub hasn't had any great moments in his career yet. This is true.

[Rosebud]

Originally Posted by Ness

Schaub hasn't had any great moments in his career yet. This is true.

That's what I was hoping to find out from this thread. I can tell you that as a giants fan who saw eli play every game we saw that he would be a stud with the game on the line from his first season. There were comeback wins, a strange transcendence where in the last few minutes of a game he became a different QB than he was most of the game, so when he finally clicked and started leading game winning drives against playoff teams we weren't surprised, although we were still exuberant as **** that the D held on. Not seeing Schaub play very often I was curious whether he's had a lot of success at leading and properly timing late, game-deciding drives, whether the defense blows the leads or not.

[Ness]

Originally Posted by Rosebud

That's what I was hoping to find out from this thread. I can tell you that as a giants fan who saw eli play every game we saw that he would be a stud with the game on the line from his first season. There were comeback wins, a strange transcendence where in the last few minutes of a game he became a different QB than he was most of the game, so when he finally clicked and started leading game winning drives against playoff teams we weren't surprised, although we were still exuberant as **** that the D held on. Not seeing Schaub play very often I was curious whether he's had a lot of success at leading and properly timing late, game-deciding drives, whether the defense blows the leads or not.

He's only had one full season under his belt as a starter. And he's still fairly young for a quarterback. I would give the man more time before you throw the hammer on him.