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Old 07-31-2010, 11:33 PM    (permalink
BigDawg819
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Originally Posted by Paranoidmoonduck View Post
I actually disagree. With the current rules, it's harder and harder to blanket a guy without playing the ball and not draw a foul, but that should actually increase the amount of importance placed on size and ball skills. If you put a couple large cornerbacks out there with real wide receiver skills, they could majorly silence quite a few of the deep pass attacks in the NFL.
With that mentality Yao Ming should be the most dominate player in the NBA because he's the tallest

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The only reason NFL offenses like the Chargers have so much success is becasuse tossing it up isn't much of a risk when all your receivers are almost assured to be able to touch the ball before a defensive back can. All a smaller defender can do in that situation is try and disrupt a receivers concentration. Increase the risk of a turnover and that all changes.
Really because I don't recall their White House visits over the years?

Yes their wideouts have more advantages in size, but they get shut down in crunch times by good defensive play in the playoffs.
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Originally Posted by Job View Post
On another note, Nicklas Backstrom is amazingly good.
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Meanwhile, in hockey the other night, the Washington Capitals' Eric Belanger gets hit with a stick, loses EIGHT teeth, has an instant root canal in the locker room, comes back out and PLAYS and never says boo.

So new rule, NBA: Unless you have a root canal at halftime, SHUT UP AND PLAY!
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Old 07-31-2010, 11:34 PM    (permalink
BigDawg819
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Originally Posted by Paranoidmoonduck View Post
I actually disagree. With the current rules, it's harder and harder to blanket a guy without playing the ball and not draw a foul, but that should actually increase the amount of importance placed on size and ball skills. If you put a couple large cornerbacks out there with real wide receiver skills, they could majorly silence quite a few of the deep pass attacks in the NFL.

The only reason NFL offenses like the Chargers have so much success is becasuse tossing it up isn't much of a risk when all your receivers are almost assured to be able to touch the ball before a defensive back can. All a smaller defender can do in that situation is try and disrupt a receivers concentration. Increase the risk of a turnover and that all changes.
Smart corners make this happen along with a pass rush. If the QB is on the ground he's not throwing the ball.
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Originally Posted by Job View Post
On another note, Nicklas Backstrom is amazingly good.
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Meanwhile, in hockey the other night, the Washington Capitals' Eric Belanger gets hit with a stick, loses EIGHT teeth, has an instant root canal in the locker room, comes back out and PLAYS and never says boo.

So new rule, NBA: Unless you have a root canal at halftime, SHUT UP AND PLAY!
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Old 07-31-2010, 11:43 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by BigDawg819 View Post
With that mentality Yao Ming should be the most dominate player in the NBA because he's the tallest.
This isn't even vaguely related to what I said. Read it again.

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Really because I don't recall their White House visits over the years?

Yes their wideouts have more advantages in size, but they get shut down in crunch times by good defensive play in the playoffs.
This is also completely unrelated to what I'm talking about.

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Smart corners make this happen along with a pass rush. If the QB is on the ground he's not throwing the ball.
Smart is a meaningless adjective here, so unless you'd like to extrapolate, I'm going to ignore that.

Bringing pass rush into this makes no sense, since all I'm talking about it a changing of the ideal physical requirements for a cornerback to match the rather amazing shift in the size of NFL wide receivers. But, even given that, a pass rush does not stop the ball from being thrown deep. If it did, then you'd be able to show me a defense that didn't surrender any deep completions last year. I'm going to assume that won't happen.

So that's pretty much strike three on strawman arguments. Thanks for playing.
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Old 07-31-2010, 11:47 PM    (permalink
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I like Schaub a lot, but unfortunately there is a glut of Quarterbacks with a resume/physical tool-set similar to his own. I would put him 8th on my personal list (I am on a Brett Favre strike so he doesn't count).
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Old 07-31-2010, 11:48 PM    (permalink
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This isn't even vaguely related to what I said. Read it again.



This is also completely unrelated to what I'm talking about.



Smart is a meaningless adjective here, so unless you'd like to extrapolate, I'm going to ignore that.

Bringing pass rush into this makes no sense, since all I'm talking about it a changing of the ideal physical requirements for a cornerback to match the rather amazing shift in the size of NFL wide receivers. But, even given that, a pass rush does not stop the ball from being thrown deep. If it did, then you'd be able to show me a defense that didn't surrender any deep completions last year. I'm going to assume that won't happen.

So that's pretty much strike three on strawman arguments. Thanks for playing.
No its you refusing to accept altering theories to your own. Height is an uncontrollable factor, whereas my theory requirements are tangible in and of the fact that they can be accomplished with good coaching and hard work by players of any height.
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Originally Posted by Job View Post
On another note, Nicklas Backstrom is amazingly good.
Quote:
Meanwhile, in hockey the other night, the Washington Capitals' Eric Belanger gets hit with a stick, loses EIGHT teeth, has an instant root canal in the locker room, comes back out and PLAYS and never says boo.

So new rule, NBA: Unless you have a root canal at halftime, SHUT UP AND PLAY!
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Old 07-31-2010, 11:52 PM    (permalink
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No its you refusing to accept altering theories to your own. Height is an uncontrollable factor, whereas my theory requirements are tangible in and of the fact that they can be accomplished with good coaching and hard work by players of any height.
Where were these theories? You made a vague and stupid reference to height in a different spot altogether, some detrimental argument about my reference to a particular offense that was not at all at the heart of my point, and then a statement about a completely different aspect of football defense than I was refering to. Point out to me the theory in that, please.

I have no idea what you mean when you say that height is uncontrollable and that what you're talking about is tangible. Is height not tangible?
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Old 07-31-2010, 11:55 PM    (permalink
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The folly of trying to adjust for big receivers, drafting tall corners, is that it will put you in a world of hurt when you play against DeSean Jackson type receivers.
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Old 07-31-2010, 11:57 PM    (permalink
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Where were these theories? You made a vague and stupid reference to height in a different spot altogether, some detrimental argument about my reference to a particular offense that was not at all at the heart of my point, and then a statement about a completely different aspect of football defense than I was refering to. Point out to me the theory in that, please.

I have no idea what you mean when you say that height is uncontrollable and that what you're talking about is tangible. Is height not tangible?
Height is an uncontrollable factor in that it cannot be augmented, taught, or improved.

Instead of making some vague statement that is just at best a passing thought and passing it off as something that resembles a theory, work with something that can be improved upon like a pass rush or coaching.
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Originally Posted by Job View Post
On another note, Nicklas Backstrom is amazingly good.
Quote:
Meanwhile, in hockey the other night, the Washington Capitals' Eric Belanger gets hit with a stick, loses EIGHT teeth, has an instant root canal in the locker room, comes back out and PLAYS and never says boo.

So new rule, NBA: Unless you have a root canal at halftime, SHUT UP AND PLAY!
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Old 08-01-2010, 12:01 AM    (permalink
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The folly of trying to adjust for big receivers, drafting tall corners, is that it will put you in a world of hurt when you play against DeSean Jackson type receivers.
Isn't that how it always goes though? Some team tries to counter-act some sort of offensive strategy and then some other team capitalizes on the weakness that exposes?

In a world where we recognize lots of different kinds of receivers, specialized for different aspects of an offensive attack, is it that ridiculous to suggest that there'd be a huge demand for having a defensive backfield that was built to be able each and every kind? I'm not suggesting that normal sized or even small cornerbacks are going anywhere, but I am suggesting that in a market where the NFL is saturated in tall wide receivers and basically completely lacking in tall cornerbacks, we could see a movement to change that imbalance.

Is any of that particularly crazy?

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Height is an uncontrollable factor in that it cannot be augmented, taught, or improved.
Height can't be augmented, but it can be selected for. By the time a player reaches the NFL, much more of what is going on is selection rather than augmentation.

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Instead of making some vague statement that is just at best a passing thought and passing it off as something that resembles a theory, work with something that can be improved upon like a pass rush or coaching.
Okay, two things...

(1) My statements have been anything but vague, although I can't even begin to say the same about your responses.

(2) I never used the phrase theory except in response to your use of it.

What I did do is off-handedly suggest a trend we may see down the road in the NFL. It wasn't even so much as a prediction as a loose hypothesis that was apparently so crazy that it's knocked the thread entirely off course.

Sorry to the OP for taking things another direction. It was not my intention.
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Old 08-01-2010, 12:10 AM    (permalink
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It is already happening, look at the Vontae Davis, Sean Smith, Aqib Talib, DRC as recent draft examples.
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Old 08-01-2010, 01:31 AM    (permalink
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It is already happening, look at the Vontae Davis, Sean Smith, Aqib Talib, DRC as recent draft examples.
Eh, DRC and Sean Smith are the only ones I'd consider "tall".

Davis is 5'11 pretty average for corners and Talib is 6'0/6'1 barely above average for corners. Whereas Smith is 6'3 and DRC is 6'2 with wheels.
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Old 08-02-2010, 09:17 AM    (permalink
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Schaub isn't clutch? He isn't the one kicking the fieldgoals. He led the team down for game tieing/winning field goals multiple times only to see the kicker miss them EVERY time. Winning is everything, but you can't say he doesn't perform underpressure. He put the team in a position to win thats all he can do. Is he top 5, no, but what has Rodgers done that puts him above Schaub?
Sometimes, elite QBs have to do more than get their team into FG range. That's just how it is. I think njx is touching on the point - where are his wow moments? not just awesome but effectively insignificant plays, but big time, game defining moments that he creates as the QB?

I'm not seeing everything Schaub does, but from what I can tell, he hasn't shown this yet. He seems to have the uncanny ability to play QB very well but with as little key moments as possible - you can often summarize the big games that big time QBs play in 2 or 3 plays.

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Schaub threw for the 6th most yards in NFL history last with year and that was with two starting guards out, a pro bowl tight end out, and no running game. Also, how is Schaub a product of a system? No one says this about Brady, Manning, Rodgers, or Rivers. Its the West Coast offense. I guess that means Montanna was a product of the system. If the system is so effective then why are QBs coveted so much?
Firstly, I don't think yards are really that big a deal, particularly these days where every year more and more QBs are getting over 4000, and secondly, QBs are coveted so much for those 'wow' moments that decide games that supplement their ability to work in the system. That's the key factor IMO. Sometimes those wow moments are so well timed and executed, the QB doesn't even have to be all that great and consistent in the system.

IMO, Peyton had a similar style to Schaub, but his consistency reached such a high level, and he owned his system so well, that it didn't really matter. If you're that good, you don't need spectacular moments to make the difference (well, I guess one could argue Peyton could have used more of them in the playoffs).
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Old 08-02-2010, 10:36 AM    (permalink
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Sometimes, elite QBs have to do more than get their team into FG range. That's just how it is. I think njx is touching on the point - where are his wow moments? not just awesome but effectively insignificant plays, but big time, game defining moments that he creates as the QB?
I don't think many people are arguing he is elite though...
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Old 08-03-2010, 03:32 PM    (permalink
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Sometimes, elite QBs have to do more than get their team into FG range. That's just how it is. I think njx is touching on the point - where are his wow moments? not just awesome but effectively insignificant plays, but big time, game defining moments that he creates as the QB?

I'm not seeing everything Schaub does, but from what I can tell, he hasn't shown this yet. He seems to have the uncanny ability to play QB very well but with as little key moments as possible - you can often summarize the big games that big time QBs play in 2 or 3 plays.
You're touching on what to me really defines a great QB. Banning often says that it's pointless to compare QBs in different systems because they're asked to do so many different things and in large part I agree with him, but that performance in the clutch to me is the exception. No matter what your system there come points in a season where a QB is depended on to take over the game, move his team down the field and get them the points they need, during this time I think is when we see the true difference between QB's quality shown. It's a huge part of why I love Eli so much, he's really the anti-peyton as he doesn't dominate for most of the game but when it comes down to those game deciding moments he simply takes over.
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Is Shaun Hill a top 10 QB? Definitely not. Is he a top 20 one? Almost certainly.
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Most misleading 10+ sack season EVER.
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Old 08-04-2010, 01:40 AM    (permalink
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Schaub hasn't had any great moments in his career yet. This is true.
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Old 08-05-2010, 10:51 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Ness View Post
Schaub hasn't had any great moments in his career yet. This is true.
That's what I was hoping to find out from this thread. I can tell you that as a giants fan who saw eli play every game we saw that he would be a stud with the game on the line from his first season. There were comeback wins, a strange transcendence where in the last few minutes of a game he became a different QB than he was most of the game, so when he finally clicked and started leading game winning drives against playoff teams we weren't surprised, although we were still exuberant as **** that the D held on. Not seeing Schaub play very often I was curious whether he's had a lot of success at leading and properly timing late, game-deciding drives, whether the defense blows the leads or not.
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Old 08-06-2010, 01:57 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Rosebud View Post
That's what I was hoping to find out from this thread. I can tell you that as a giants fan who saw eli play every game we saw that he would be a stud with the game on the line from his first season. There were comeback wins, a strange transcendence where in the last few minutes of a game he became a different QB than he was most of the game, so when he finally clicked and started leading game winning drives against playoff teams we weren't surprised, although we were still exuberant as **** that the D held on. Not seeing Schaub play very often I was curious whether he's had a lot of success at leading and properly timing late, game-deciding drives, whether the defense blows the leads or not.
He's only had one full season under his belt as a starter. And he's still fairly young for a quarterback. I would give the man more time before you throw the hammer on him.
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Old 08-06-2010, 02:10 AM    (permalink
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It is already happening, look at the Vontae Davis, Sean Smith, Aqib Talib, DRC as recent draft examples.
He isn't the only CB out on the field though, you can adjust the match ups. It's smart to get corners with different traits and there are only so many corners out there with that kind of size and speed (that can play).
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Old 08-06-2010, 04:30 AM    (permalink
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He's only had one full season under his belt as a starter. And he's still fairly young for a quarterback. I would give the man more time before you throw the hammer on him.
No doubt, I'm withholding judgement of the guy til I see him more myself, but I think that he's getting a lot of love prematurely. Let's see where he goes from here before we try and dub him top whatever.
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Old 08-06-2010, 03:05 PM    (permalink
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The dude is not new to the NFL, he's been in the league for six yrs. the fact that it took him six yrs. to play a full season does not say elite to me. The dude had three yrs. to prepare with the Falcons. What other Elite QB had that long of a necessary preparation time? Aaron Rodgers is the only one that comes to mind and even he blew up in his first yr. didn't he, showing flashes of what he was capable of. In his first two yrs. as a starter Schaub was not even clearly the best QB on the team, with alot of people preferring Rosenfels, it took an epic fail by Rosenfels at Indy in 08' to secure Schaubs position and shipping Rosenfels to the Vikings. It's crazy cuz' I'm a Texans fan so I should also be ga-ga for this guy, but I just can't.

Technique, I noticed a few people compare Schaub to Rivers, I'm sorry, that is a horrible comparison. For short to maybe 20 yds. down field Schaubs release is nice and quick, going further down field his technique becomes eratic and his windup becomes longer. In the second Colts game of this yr. this was evidenced clearly when R. Mathis stripped the ball from Schaub at the tail end of his wind-up, a play that would have never happened if Schaubs wind-up and release were consistent.

Then there was the Matt is more mobile and aware in the pocket than rivers. Really? Anybody that watches Matt closely will notice that he doesn't stay on the balls of his feet, the guy plays flatfooted. Speaking of awareness, Schaubs avg. sack time is at 3.8 secs after the snap. Most other QB's avg. sack time comes about a second quicker. This means he has good protection, but he doesn't get rid of the ball quicker. I hate to say this cuz' he's my teams QB, but a good amount of sacks that he took could have been avoided. One last thing is he telegraphs his throw to the flat, twice he was intercepted on the exact same throw once against the Cards and again at the Jags.

Also thanks to our HC's focus on making Schaub a gun-slinger our running game suffered incredibly going from decent on the verge of something special to bottom feeder. Our back-up qb's didn't take any snaps with our offense, if the starter needs that much practice time he should be doing more wow throws on Sundays. Not throw into triple coverage and know where his outlets are.

Back to the mobility thing. In Denver the play action was a very deadly weapon. However with Schaub running that offense not once have they run a designed bootleg run. However one series with Rex Grossman and he gains a first down with a designed bootleg run. Let me repeat myself.. with REX GROSSMAN. The other handicap is that Matt cannot throw across his body while on the move. So while he does the bootleg one side of the field is inaccessible until he stops to set up.

I deal with a ton of my peers jocking him and I get a lot of flack about how I'm not a real fan, but whatever. If I weren't a fan I wouldn't notice these things. It's a good thing I don't have DVR.

Anyways, as a six yr. vet Schaub is a good QB, but to say he's elite or much more than avg. is just not right.
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Old 08-06-2010, 04:03 PM    (permalink
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The dude is not new to the NFL, he's been in the league for six yrs. the fact that it took him six yrs. to play a full season does not say elite to me. The dude had three yrs. to prepare with the Falcons. What other Elite QB had that long of a necessary preparation time?
Steve Young, Warren Moon, Dan Fouts, and Troy Aikman all took longer than three years to be good. That is for sure.
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Old 08-07-2010, 02:51 PM    (permalink
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Steve Young, Warren Moon, Dan Fouts, and Troy Aikman all took longer than three years to be good. That is for sure.
Didn't say it took him that long to be good. Took him that long to play a full season. There's a difference.
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Old 08-07-2010, 05:09 PM    (permalink
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The dude is not new to the NFL, he's been in the league for six yrs. the fact that it took him six yrs. to play a full season does not say elite to me. The dude had three yrs. to prepare with the Falcons. What other Elite QB had that long of a necessary preparation time? Aaron Rodgers is the only one that comes to mind and even he blew up in his first yr. didn't he, showing flashes of what he was capable of. In his first two yrs. as a starter Schaub was not even clearly the best QB on the team, with alot of people preferring Rosenfels, it took an epic fail by Rosenfels at Indy in 08' to secure Schaubs position and shipping Rosenfels to the Vikings. It's crazy cuz' I'm a Texans fan so I should also be ga-ga for this guy, but I just can't.

Technique, I noticed a few people compare Schaub to Rivers, I'm sorry, that is a horrible comparison. For short to maybe 20 yds. down field Schaubs release is nice and quick, going further down field his technique becomes eratic and his windup becomes longer. In the second Colts game of this yr. this was evidenced clearly when R. Mathis stripped the ball from Schaub at the tail end of his wind-up, a play that would have never happened if Schaubs wind-up and release were consistent.

Then there was the Matt is more mobile and aware in the pocket than rivers. Really? Anybody that watches Matt closely will notice that he doesn't stay on the balls of his feet, the guy plays flatfooted. Speaking of awareness, Schaubs avg. sack time is at 3.8 secs after the snap. Most other QB's avg. sack time comes about a second quicker. This means he has good protection, but he doesn't get rid of the ball quicker. I hate to say this cuz' he's my teams QB, but a good amount of sacks that he took could have been avoided. One last thing is he telegraphs his throw to the flat, twice he was intercepted on the exact same throw once against the Cards and again at the Jags.

Also thanks to our HC's focus on making Schaub a gun-slinger our running game suffered incredibly going from decent on the verge of something special to bottom feeder. Our back-up qb's didn't take any snaps with our offense, if the starter needs that much practice time he should be doing more wow throws on Sundays. Not throw into triple coverage and know where his outlets are.

Back to the mobility thing. In Denver the play action was a very deadly weapon. However with Schaub running that offense not once have they run a designed bootleg run. However one series with Rex Grossman and he gains a first down with a designed bootleg run. Let me repeat myself.. with REX GROSSMAN. The other handicap is that Matt cannot throw across his body while on the move. So while he does the bootleg one side of the field is inaccessible until he stops to set up.

I deal with a ton of my peers jocking him and I get a lot of flack about how I'm not a real fan, but whatever. If I weren't a fan I wouldn't notice these things. It's a good thing I don't have DVR.

Anyways, as a six yr. vet Schaub is a good QB, but to say he's elite or much more than avg. is just not right.
1. No one is calling Schaub Michael Vick, but he is pretty mobile for a pocket passer. Is he Vick? Absolutely not. But he can move when he needs to. And btw, bootleg plays aren't just about mobility. In fact, a lot of coaches prefer the bootleg to give their qb's less of the field to scan so they make quicker decisions.

If you're running less bootleg with Schaub, it's probably bc he does a good job of scanning the field (which he does) and restricting half of the field in bootleg isn't necessarily the best idea when you have a good field scanner.



2. You're blaming Schaub for the run game? How does that make any sense?

3. Being more mobile means you have to be on the toes of your feet while in the pocket? The hell?

4. Your oline isn't very good. I've seen it plenty. It's average. I wouldn't put sacks on Schaub, he gets the ball out quickly.

5. Of course his wind up is gonna be larger on a bigger throw. EVERY qb's windup is bigger on bomb passes.


I think you're being a little harsh on Schaub.
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Old 08-07-2010, 09:19 PM    (permalink
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Didn't say it took him that long to be good. Took him that long to play a full season. There's a difference.
You said he had "three years to prepare with the Falcons". Prepare for not getting injured in Pro Football? Is this what you meant? That doesn't make sense. And he was behind Michael Vick for a long time. Schaub was never drafted to be the franchise quarterback for Atlanta. The guy was "prepared" when he was traded to the Texans to be the starter.
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Old 08-08-2010, 02:28 PM    (permalink
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You said he had "three years to prepare with the Falcons". Prepare for not getting injured in Pro Football? Is this what you meant? That doesn't make sense. And he was behind Michael Vick for a long time. Schaub was never drafted to be the franchise quarterback for Atlanta. The guy was "prepared" when he was traded to the Texans to be the starter.
No, I've watched MS for the last 3 yrs. and before this yr. he was a borderline starter. Not much better than a rookie. A guy whos been in the league that long shouldn't have been looking like a rookie. His first season he had more turnovers than he did TD's, his second season he had one more TD than he did turnovers. This yr. he had 3 scores to every two turnovers. Three yrs. with the Falcons and he still came in here not being able to take care of the rock. How was he preped when he came here? I mean really we gave up 2 second rdrs. and swapped firsts with ATL and he could barely distinguish himself from his back-up until he was shipped off.
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