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Old 08-21-2013, 08:28 PM    (permalink
brat316
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Originally Posted by mightytitan9 View Post
"What's a form tackle?" - Every defender in the NFL
Well you can't practice tackling, in TC or practice I think its against the CBA.
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Old 08-21-2013, 08:38 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by brat316 View Post
He gets fined a game check(rookie wage problems), by guys in an office that 'reviewed the video'. Now other players see this, and must wonder what else can you do but go lower.
Who I doubt have ever played the game.
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Old 08-21-2013, 08:39 PM    (permalink
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Well you can't practice tackling, in TC or practice I think its against the CBA.
There are still ways to practice tackling without actually tackling.
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Old 08-21-2013, 08:43 PM    (permalink
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There are still ways to practice tackling without actually tackling.
lol.

I joke.
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Old 08-21-2013, 08:45 PM    (permalink
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My guess is the Bostic fine will be rescinded.
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Old 08-21-2013, 08:45 PM    (permalink
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I'm just saying for this particular instance, if you watch the hit


He leads with his shoulder, head to the side, aims for chest area, and it is pretty much a clean hit.

He gets fined a game check(rookie wage problems), by guys in an office that 'reviewed the video'. Now other players see this, and must wonder what else can you do but go lower.
And by the rules it was a blown call in game. Flat out blown call. I have seen much less get called in the regular season.
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Old 08-21-2013, 08:59 PM    (permalink
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Seems like fans want the NFL to simultaneously protect players while not putting rules in place to stop dangerous hits. Same with the players. There are former players filing lawsuits against the league, while current players are complaining about the game being too soft. The NFL is in a lose-lose situation.
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Old 08-21-2013, 09:21 PM    (permalink
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Seems like fans want the NFL to simultaneously protect players while not putting rules in place to stop dangerous hits. Same with the players. There are former players filing lawsuits against the league, while current players are complaining about the game being too soft. The NFL is in a lose-lose situation.
well they could try a serious push on form tackling. that would be a good start. stop promoting big now illegal hits.
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Old 08-21-2013, 09:29 PM    (permalink
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well they could try a serious push on form tackling. that would be a good start. stop promoting big now illegal hits.
Heads Up!

It will work its way to HS and college and then the NFL in 10 years.
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Old 08-21-2013, 09:38 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Cudders View Post
I canít stress just how much I would hate it if the NFL instituted a ďstrike zoneĒ of hips-to-shoulders for defenders and proceeded to penalize illegal hits with flags and fines. Further limiting a defenderís target area would be an absolute joke for the game.
Nobody is saying to completely outlaw hits below the waist, it's being said to help prevent putting your helmet/shoulder pad into the knee.

I weighed 25-50% less than most people when I was playing, and never had a problem tackling a single person. And guess what, I never once dove at the knees.
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Old 08-21-2013, 09:53 PM    (permalink
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Nobody is saying to completely outlaw hits below the waist, it's being said to help prevent putting your helmet/shoulder pad into the knee.

I weighed 25-50% less than most people when I was playing, and never had a problem tackling a single person. And guess what, I never once dove at the knees.
hit the waist and wrap up?
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Old 08-21-2013, 10:13 PM    (permalink
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You guys make me proud here on this subject.
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Old 08-21-2013, 10:17 PM    (permalink
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Or stop ignoring the THREE ******* FEET between the head and knee?
Seriously.

Going at the knee is stupid for a number of reasons. Causing stupid injuries is one reason. The fact more tackles are missed by guys going for ****** knee shots than going for actual wrap up tackles.
People act like your two options are the head or the knees.
++ Rep..... that's a great comment.
I like the Bengals now.... go Cinci.
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Old 08-21-2013, 11:26 PM    (permalink
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Nobody is saying to completely outlaw hits below the waist, it's being said to help prevent putting your helmet/shoulder pad into the knee.

I weighed 25-50% less than most people when I was playing, and never had a problem tackling a single person. And guess what, I never once dove at the knees.
I'm not sure if the CB took this into account when he blew Keller's knee, but down and distance.


Now say he goes for the waist wrap up, and tackles him. Its a sure tackle, thats great and all. But now Keller was able to drag him and fall forward for the extra 2-3 yards he needed, you have now just proved to be useless at your job. Stopping the offense.

There also is the other part of he could have went for the knee a missed, and Keller got an even bigger gain. (Asante Samuel) One extreme.

He could have wrapped up and stopped him dead right there. Another extreme.


I don't disagree with you tackling guys bigger than you with right forum. But you played in HS, where not every guy is on a serious workout regime. And I like to think usually the bigger guy is going to win the battle in the NFL. In the box I feel it must be easier to heads up tackle, than it is in the open field.
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Old 08-22-2013, 06:18 AM    (permalink
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It can stop. It's not natural to dive face down into someone's knee area. That is a last restort, p*ssy play too.
You know what most defenders will do if diving at someone’s knee is their last resort? Dive at their knee. Because that defender doesn’t want to walk to the sideline and get chewed out for not doing whatever it took to help his team. And that defender doesn’t want to make a habit of pulling up because that can jeopardize their job and their livelihood.

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Pretty much everyone agrees that a lot of these can stop.
I’m not sure that I do agree. You seem to want to stop knee shots altogether. I don’t like seeing knees explode on the field. It sucks for the injured individual, the team, and the fans. The one alternative though – the institution of the “strike zone” – is plain garbage. You might want to stop just the “cheap shots”, but I don’t believe that’s following the rule to its conclusion. The NFL doesn’t want to dump even more judgment calls on the officials and it shouldn’t want to undertake the nightmarish process of determining intent. Helmet-to-helmet hits used to have looser restrictions. It used to consider things related to “intent”, for lack of a better word. What happened? Those disappeared. Now, if the defender’s helmet comes into contact with the ball carrier’s helmet, it’s penalized. Incidental or not. It isn’t open to discussion or interpretation. Referees have been handed a concise mandate. If it’s even borderline, the flag needs to be thrown.

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BTW, that hit Bears LB Bostic was fined for the other day for the hit on the Charger runner, that's BOGUS.
Yet that Bostic hit is a perfect example of the extent that the NFL will go to eliminate a so-called target area from the game. You won’t find a whole lot of people that would call that hit cheap or excessive. Bostic hits the receiver in the chest after he’s caught the ball, turned upfield, and taken two steps. But the NFL’s VP of officiating deemed that Bostic lowered the crown of his helmet. Launching is a clear, categorical no-no. Circumstances don’t matter. Does it matter that there wasn’t direct helmet-to-helmet contact? No, it doesn’t. Because, no matter what, he’s got to get his helmet to the side or it’s a flag and a fine. Like it or not, those are the rules the NFL operates under now and there’s no going back.

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As a ball-carrier, I'd rather get hit like that than someone Dustin-Keller me.
Keller will never be the same. His career as he knew it is over.
It would be hard to find someone in the NFL who would rather be hit in the knees than in the head. A concussion doesn’t have as much financial risk as a blown knee; however, with lawsuits surrounding head-related injuries beginning to pile up, the NFL doesn’t care as much. It needs to cultivate and maintain an immediate and long-term posture on brain trauma for legal purposes.

But that’s nothing more than tangential at best. It still doesn’t explain the desire to implement similar contact restrictions to the ankle and knee area. It just reinforces the well-accepted point that it sucks.

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Or stop ignoring the THREE ******* FEET between the head and knee?
Seriously.
On a theoretical level, it has some merit. In terms of practical application, it’s ignoring the variables in each tackle and the fact that ball carriers aren’t motionless, upright runners. For an NFL defender, that window (hips-to-shoulders) is a lot smaller than it seems and it simply doesn’t take into account the intricate dynamics of action and reaction. Fundamentally speaking, runners aren’t paid to be tackled. Runners are paid to make tacklers miss. And, in general, runners are going to attempt to accomplish that goal from the snap of the ball to the sound of the whistle. So, while it’s entirely possible that a defensive player aims directly at the waist with a textbook form tackle, it’s equally possible that the offensive player cuts laterally in an effort to gain extra yardage. Assuming the construct of the predefined “strike zone”, you’re asking the defensive player to either re-correct himself at unprecedented game speeds with repeated precision or asking him to abandon his pursuit and surrender field position.

Or asking (and inherently trusting) NFL officials to exercise a degree of judgment that they haven’t proved capable of meeting given recent safety legislation.

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Going at the knee is stupid for a number of reasons. Causing stupid injuries is one reason. The fact more tackles are missed by guys going for ****** knee shots than going for actual wrap up tackles.
The prospect of mangling an opponent’s knee is a peripheral-to-nonexistent thought in an average defender’s mind as he’s chasing after the ball carrier.

As for the second point, I’m not advocating knee shots, so to speak. You won’t find a coach that advocates going for the knee as a foolproof, go-to tackling technique. Often, it is a last resort. But the perfect, textbook tackler that’s being talked about just doesn’t exist. There’s not a linebacker out there that’s nailed each ball carrier with a clinical tackle right between the hips and shoulders on a week-to-week basis. Not one. I don’t care how much tackling is practiced, and it isn’t practiced much in comparison to previous eras, it just isn’t realistic to expect that. There are going to be times where a blocker controls an arm and leaves a defender with just one. There are going to be times where a blocker pushes a defender to the turf and leaves their helmet near the knee. There are going to be times where a defender is just a step behind the ball carrier and needs to lunge to make it. There are going to be situations that necessitate non-form tackles. Can a number of injuries happen as a result of them? Sure. But letting one outcome (that’s unlikely to begin with) dictate the entire course of NFL gameplay is ridiculous.

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Nobody is saying to completely outlaw hits below the waist, it's being said to help prevent putting your helmet/shoulder pad into the knee.
Then where does it stop? What are the parameters? Where is the cutoff point in terms of allowable contact? Do the rules take intent into account? Or is it just a simple case of helmet- or shoulder-to-knee and it’s a flag? What if a ball carrier’s knee falls into the helmet or shoulder? What if a defender wraps his arms around a ball carrier who has planted his leg and tears a knee like that?

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Originally Posted by mightytitan9 View Post
I weighed 25-50% less than most people when I was playing, and never had a problem tackling a single person. And guess what, I never once dove at the knees.
The NFL is a much, much different beast. We’re talking about world-class athletes with world-class QABS. The speed of the game isn’t even comparable. From an athletic standpoint or from a mental standpoint. Lower level defenders don’t have to diagnose, react, or tackle as fast as an NFL defender does.

And I’m not suggesting there aren’t cases of poor tackling in the NFL either. There are a number of reasons that tackling has deteriorated over the past couple decades. Part of it is the “knockout hit” culture. Part of it is the lack of live practice in pads. Part of it is the rising speed of the game. There are a lot of aspects with room for improvement. But eliminating another possible contact area for defenders in an era where the rules favor the offense to begin with would be a gross misstep for the game. Injuries happen in a contact sport. All of the parties involved know the risks.
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Old 08-22-2013, 08:29 AM    (permalink
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Seahawks rookie DT Jordan Hill out 3-6 weeks with a partially torn bicep.

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com...ly-torn-bicep/
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Old 08-22-2013, 08:42 AM    (permalink
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Cudders, you sound like you're practicing for the bar.
Are you on your way to becoming an attorney?

And who's your team?
All it says is Connecticut. Who's your team, ESPN in Bristol?
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Old 08-22-2013, 09:40 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Cudders View Post
On a theoretical level, it has some merit. Form tackling only has "theoretical merit" the ****?
In terms of practical application, itís ignoring the variables in each tackle and the fact that ball carriers arenít motionless, upright runners. For an NFL defender, that window (hips-to-shoulders) is a lot smaller than it seems and it simply doesnít take into account the intricate dynamics of action and reaction. Fundamentally speaking, runners arenít paid to be tackled. Runners are paid to make tacklers miss. And, in general, runners are going to attempt to accomplish that goal from the snap of the ball to the sound of the whistle. So, while itís entirely possible that a defensive player aims directly at the waist with a textbook form tackle, itís equally possible that the offensive player cuts laterally in an effort to gain extra yardage. Assuming the construct of the predefined ďstrike zoneĒ, youíre asking the defensive player to either re-correct himself at unprecedented game speeds with repeated precision or asking him to abandon his pursuit and surrender field position.

you seem to lack a general concept of the basic tackling techniques if you are in any way shape or form suggesting that you are somehow more likely to miss a runner by going center mass on them. Hips do not lie. A runner goes the same way his hips go. If you dive at someones waist (which, you shouldn't dive anyways) you are less likely to miss if you wrap up than if you dive at their feet or knees.

Or asking (and inherently trusting) NFL officials to exercise a degree of judgment that they havenít proved capable of meeting given recent safety legislation.



The prospect of mangling an opponentís knee is a peripheral-to-nonexistent thought in an average defenderís mind as heís chasing after the ball carrier.

I'm guessing you didn't play much defense....

As for the second point, Iím not advocating knee shots, so to speak. You wonít find a coach that advocates going for the knee as a foolproof, go-to tackling technique. Often, it is a last resort. But the perfect, textbook tackler thatís being talked about just doesnít exist. Thereís not a linebacker out there thatís nailed each ball carrier with a clinical tackle right between the hips and shoulders on a week-to-week basis. Not one. I donít care how much tackling is practiced, and it isnít practiced much in comparison to previous eras, it just isnít realistic to expect that. There are going to be times where a blocker controls an arm and leaves a defender with just one. There are going to be times where a blocker pushes a defender to the turf and leaves their helmet near the knee. There are going to be times where a defender is just a step behind the ball carrier and needs to lunge to make it. There are going to be situations that necessitate non-form tackles. Can a number of injuries happen as a result of them? Sure. But letting one outcome (thatís unlikely to begin with) dictate the entire course of NFL gameplay is ridiculous.


Oh for ***** sake you are missing the goddamn point. The point is most guys don't even attempt the form tackle. A lot of DB's just try to dive at knees and take out runner that way since the fine is up high. Of course accidents and anomalies occur. I have never once advocated penalizing tackling the knees or suggested that every tackle ever should be perfect form. Accidents happen. People get hurt. It is part of playing a contact sport. But diving into someones knee has always been a part of the sport I hated. I hated cut blocking, I hate when DBs dove at knees. It's cheap and dirty. If you are okay with this method for DBs why not bring back all cut blocks in the trenches? Im sure mangling someones knee isn't on their mind as THEY DIVE AT THEIR ******* KNEE.
Replies in bold. You have taken my general concept of stressing form tackling and completely lost touch with what I was saying. So Im done. Have fun.
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Old 08-22-2013, 10:19 AM    (permalink
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Whats the job of a defensive player, when someone has the ball?

To stop them, by any means possible with in the confines of the game. Sure there is a little extra added, to remind the offensive player don't come this way again. But with any head contact resulting in fines and flags, there goes that option.


I agree DB shouldn't dive at the knees of ball carrier, but what do you think is going to happen when your 5'11 195 lb DB has a Rb or TE coming at him full steam. He wraps up and gets taken for a ride, trucked.







Majority of guys going low on him, the few that wrap up get taken for a ride. Even my boy Troy, free piggy back ride.

They shouldn't do it, but its understandable why they would/are.
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Old 08-22-2013, 11:24 AM    (permalink
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Nothing wrong with a free piggy-back ride every once in a while.

Is something wrong with Dustin Keller's knee, and the other guys we mentioned.
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Old 08-22-2013, 11:31 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by J-Mike88 View Post
Nothing wrong with a free piggy-back ride every once in a while.

Is something wrong with Dustin Keller's knee, and the other guys we mentioned.
You get paid to make a stop. The job description says don't give them a first down on 3rd and 3. Your DC is on the sideline yelling at you, to make a stop, not get taken for a piggy back ride.

You are going to be out of a job, if you can't stop the ball carrier. Not to mention ridiculed by fans and peoplez.
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Old 08-22-2013, 11:53 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by brat316 View Post
Whats the job of a defensive player, when someone has the ball?

To stop them, by any means possible with in the confines of the game. Sure there is a little extra added, to remind the offensive player don't come this way again. But with any head contact resulting in fines and flags, there goes that option.


I agree DB shouldn't dive at the knees of ball carrier, but what do you think is going to happen when your 5'11 195 lb DB has a Rb or TE coming at him full steam. He wraps up and gets taken for a ride, trucked.







Majority of guys going low on him, the few that wrap up get taken for a ride. Even my boy Troy, free piggy back ride.

They shouldn't do it, but its understandable why they would/are.
My biggest problem withe DBs going low is inside the hash where there RBs is blindsided with a helmet to the knee.

Those 2 AP plays are prime examples of bad NFL tackling. They went high, but you can still make tackles going high. Did they attack the runner? Did they wrap up and explode into him? No, they let AP do the attacking and just waitied for him to hit them.

I have no problem with Jarius Byrds tackle on Gronk at :21, he goes low and explodes upwards, he doesn't dive at the knees. At 1:00 we see poor tackling, he decided to hold on around the waist, when he could have slide down tangled his legs and Gronk would have went down. The Jim Leonard hit at 1:21 is similar to the Byrd one, and I have no problem with it because he didn't dive into the knees.

It all really goes back into failure to understand proper tackling technique. Heck, it doesn't even have to be proper just safer.
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Old 08-22-2013, 12:44 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by mightytitan9 View Post
My biggest problem withe DBs going low is inside the hash where there RBs is blindsided with a helmet to the knee.

Those 2 AP plays are prime examples of bad NFL tackling. They went high, but you can still make tackles going high. Did they attack the runner? Did they wrap up and explode into him? No, they let AP do the attacking and just waitied for him to hit them.

I have no problem with Jarius Byrds tackle on Gronk at :21, he goes low and explodes upwards, he doesn't dive at the knees. At 1:00 we see poor tackling, he decided to hold on around the waist, when he could have slide down tangled his legs and Gronk would have went down. The Jim Leonard hit at 1:21 is similar to the Byrd one, and I have no problem with it because he didn't dive into the knees.

It all really goes back into failure to understand proper tackling technique. Heck, it doesn't even have to be proper just safer.
I like this post.
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Old 08-22-2013, 01:39 PM    (permalink
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Just post videos of Troy Polamalu "tackling" to see what a dirty tackle looks like.
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Old 08-22-2013, 01:45 PM    (permalink
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he torpedoes and whiffs but i cant really think of any time he hurt someone. Ryan clark has "clean" tackles that make players come on the field and pray...its a fine line
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