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Old 08-30-2010, 05:28 PM    (permalink
BeerBaron
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Originally Posted by San Diego Chicken View Post
How do you explain Aaron Rodgers then? He sliced up the same "weak" defenses. In fact, how do you explain any QB that was successful that didn't come from the ACC, SEC or Big 10 (conferences known for their strength on defense). The elite talent part I can buy, but it's hard to argue the Pac 10 when they've historically produced the best/most NFL QB's, and I dont' think it's that close either.
Rodgers wasn't throwing to multiple 5-star recruit targets and handing off to a Heisman winner while being protected behind a line that all (or almost all) went on to start in the NFL.

He fits in with all of the MAC or other smaller conference QBs who've had success in the pros. The talent level around them on offense matches more closely the defensive talent level (or lack thereof) they are playing against.
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Old 08-30-2010, 05:29 PM    (permalink
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How do you explain Aaron Rodgers then? He sliced up the same "weak" defenses. In fact, how do you explain any QB that was successful that didn't come from the ACC, SEC or Big 10 (conferences known for their strength on defense). The elite talent part I can buy, but it's hard to argue the Pac 10 when they've historically produced the best/most NFL QB's, and I dont' think it's that close either.
The differences in talent between Aaron Rodgers' teammates and Matt Leinart's teammates is not even comparable.
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Old 08-30-2010, 05:30 PM    (permalink
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hahaha, i forgot about that.

Hey Matt, how does it feel to know that while your kid is playing with his legos in the living room, that girl you knocked up is swallowing someone else's **** in the bedroom with the AC is on, which you're paying for btw.
Please, Leinart was cheating on this ***** with one of Jessica Simpson's former assistants (whatever you wanna call it), Kristin Cavalleri, and Paris Hilton, all the while she was pregnant.

Nothing she does from here on out can make up for that.
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Old 08-30-2010, 05:33 PM    (permalink
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Aaron Rodgers
Carson Palmer
Mark Sanchez
Matt Cassel
Matt Moore
Trent Edwards
Derek Anderson/Matt Leinart

When the season begins, you're going to have 7 Pac 10 starters.

Historically you've got #1 overall picks, Super Bowl MVP's, and Hall of Fame players that came out of the Pac 10. I don't get this sentiment at all. At all.
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Old 08-30-2010, 05:35 PM    (permalink
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The differences in talent between Aaron Rodgers' teammates and Matt Leinart's teammates is not even comparable.
Okay. Leinart had talent. I can see why that would be a concern. But for that matter, so did Sam Bradford, and he carved up defenses that were far worse that what has been offered from the Pac 10 the last 10 years.

I'm not saying Bradford isn't good. Just that these arguments don't make any sense. Leinart isn't good enough, plain and simple. Has nothing to do with where he went to school for anyone other than people who don't like USC.
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Old 08-30-2010, 05:37 PM    (permalink
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Aaron Rodgers
Carson Palmer
Mark Sanchez
Matt Cassel
Matt Moore
Trent Edwards
Derek Anderson/Matt Leinart

When the season begins, you're going to have 7 Pac 10 starters.

Historically you've got #1 overall picks, Super Bowl MVP's, and Hall of Fame players that came out of the Pac 10. I don't get this sentiment at all. At all.
Palmer was pre-Pete Carroll before USC became a monster....so I don't count him.

Sanchez isn't very good, at least not yet.

Cassel didn't play in college and hasn't been very good for KC anyway.

Moore was undrafted and has been average at best. Need to see more from him.

Edwards hasn't been very good.

Anderson had one fluke year and otherwise hasn't been very good.

And Leinart.

Plus, none of the non-USC guys had the elite offensive talent around them that Leinart, and to a lesser degree Sanchez, had at USC.

Beating through Pac-10 defenses with those weapons is like going through tall grass with a machete. None of those offensive skill players had to learn to actually play their position better to be good....they got by wit their superior athleticism dominating a defensively weak conference.
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Old 08-30-2010, 05:40 PM    (permalink
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a defensively weak conference.
except for TJ Trauma Ward
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Old 08-30-2010, 05:41 PM    (permalink
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Palmer was pre-Pete Carroll before USC became a monster....so I don't count him.

Sanchez isn't very good, at least not yet.

Cassel didn't play in college and hasn't been very good for KC anyway.

Moore was undrafted and has been average at best. Need to see more from him.

Edwards hasn't been very good.

Anderson had one fluke year and otherwise hasn't been very good.

And Leinart.

Plus, none of the non-USC guys had the elite offensive talent around them that Leinart, and to a lesser degree Sanchez, had at USC.

Beating through Pac-10 defenses with those weapons is like going through tall grass with a machete. None of those offensive skill players had to learn to actually play their position better to be good....they got by wit their superior athleticism dominating a defensively weak conference.
I know this was coming, the "well, they're not that good". They're still on NFL rosters. They're still starting ahead of QB's from other conferences. You're speaking as if they're out of the NFL in 2 years flameouts like JaMarcus Russell (who shredded tough defenses in college I might add).

You just have to face facts that your opinion is influenced by bias and nothing concrete or factual.
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Old 08-30-2010, 05:45 PM    (permalink
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How I would explain how Aaron Rodgers has been so good, breaking the Tedford streak, is that he was allowed to sit on the bench and learn from a living legend. He then inherited a great offense. Had he been thrown into the fire, like SF was, he would have had the success he has had.
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Old 08-30-2010, 05:45 PM    (permalink
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Also interesting - The Pac 10 has produced an NFL draft pick at QB every year since 1977. That's amazing, IMO. And it's only going to continue with Locker, Luck, Foles and Barkley in the pipeline.
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Old 08-30-2010, 05:47 PM    (permalink
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I know this was coming, the "well, they're not that good". They're still on NFL rosters. They're still starting ahead of QB's from other conferences. You're speaking as if they're out of the NFL in 2 years flameouts like JaMarcus Russell (who shredded tough defenses in college I might add).

You just have to face facts that your opinion is influenced by bias and nothing concrete or factual.
I don't think we're arguing the same point anymore since you brought up the other QBs....if anything, the fact that none but Rodgers has done much as a pro only backs up my point that overall, the Pac-10 is a defensively weak conference.

If it makes you feel any better, I feel the same way about the Big-12. Tons of spread offenses and no real defensive powerhouses before Nebraska last year. And look what they did with studs like Suh and Crick. Those teams that normally just threw all day long on the other weak teams in the conference struggled when they ran into Nebraska....Texas almost lost their bid for the title game to Nebraska if it wasn't for a last second FG.

And I didn't (don't) like Bradford all that much as a pro prospect for some of those reasons. Elite talent around him in a spread offense going against mostly weak defenses......could easily be Leinart 2.0. His one saving grace is that he legitimately seems to care about football while Leinart doesn't.
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Old 08-30-2010, 05:48 PM    (permalink
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How I would explain how Aaron Rodgers has been so good, breaking the Tedford streak, is that he was allowed to sit on the bench and learn from a living legend. He then inherited a great offense. Had he been thrown into the fire, like SF was, he would have had the success he has had.
Rodgers would have still out-performed Alex Smith. Maybe he wouldn't have developed into a top 5 starter like he is today, but I'm pretty confident he could have still been pretty good. He doesn't have the scheme issues Alex Smith does, and his arm talent is way better.
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Old 08-30-2010, 05:53 PM    (permalink
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I don't think we're arguing the same point anymore since you brought up the other QBs....if anything, the fact that none but Rodgers has done much as a pro only backs up my point that overall, the Pac-10 is a defensively weak conference.

If it makes you feel any better, I feel the same way about the Big-12. Tons of spread offenses and no real defensive powerhouses before Nebraska last year. And look what they did with studs like Suh and Crick. Those teams that normally just threw all day long on the other weak teams in the conference struggled when they ran into Nebraska....Texas almost lost their bid for the title game to Nebraska if it wasn't for a last second FG.

And I didn't (don't) like Bradford all that much as a pro prospect for some of those reasons. Elite talent around him in a spread offense going against mostly weak defenses......could easily be Leinart 2.0. His one saving grace is that he legitimately seems to care about football while Leinart doesn't.
Even if the Pac 10 was a weak defensive conference (which in the grand scheme of things it isn't, not even close) that has little to no relevance to a players draft projectability to the NFL. Even Pac 10 QB's who DIDN'T succeed against the same weak defenses find themselves in the NFL. Cassel never even played. Anderson was awful in college, and had a completion percentage below 50%. In college. Against so called weak defenses.

No, it's about projectability to the NFL and it really matters not whether you faced USC's defense week in week out or UC-Davis's defense.

Sorry, you just can't argue these points when the Pac 10 has the most QB's in the NFL by a good margin, you just can't.
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Old 08-30-2010, 06:00 PM    (permalink
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This isn't a Pac-10 issue as much as it is a USC issue. And the issue with USC is that their skill position talent sucks in the NFL. I've written multiple posts on this subject, going all the way back to when the were rolling everybody back in 2005. The talent of their skill position players simply did not translate to the NFL-style game, but it was overlooked by everyone because of TEH PRO STILE OFFENCE!!!1 that the Trojans ran.
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Old 08-30-2010, 06:07 PM    (permalink
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This isn't a Pac-10 issue as much as it is a USC issue. And the issue with USC is that their skill position talent sucks in the NFL. I've written multiple posts on this subject, going all the way back to when the were rolling everybody back in 2005. The talent of their skill position players simply did not translate to the NFL-style game, but it was overlooked by everyone because of TEH PRO STILE OFFENCE!!!1 that the Trojans ran.
Maybe so. They could be the product of a dominant offensive line. Baker, Justice, Kalil and Lutuii, that would be one of the NFL's better OL's. I can't remember if Chilo Rachal was the starter on that 2005 team but he's a pretty good starting guard for the 49ers too.

In general, I think skill players from big name programs are overrated, not necessarily just USC , but skill players from big schools just garner so much media attention that makes it difficult to live up to expectations.
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Old 08-30-2010, 06:17 PM    (permalink
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I never bought the idea of conferences to figure out quarterbacks. By comparison, the Big Ten only has three starting quarterbacks, and two of them are from Purdue, which plays a shotgun-spread offense. As far as stacked teams go, the quarterback is just along for the ride, more often than not. You can win with Matt Flynn, Chris Leak or Ken Dorsey if you have the team around them.
Personally, I would go with how hard he works, if he can make the guys around him better, and how well he handles adversity. A lot of the things you can't measure are what makes a quarterback. Physical tools somewhat matter too.
On a complete side note, if Colt McCoy projected remotely well physically then I would have been much higher on him.
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Old 08-30-2010, 06:22 PM    (permalink
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Maybe so. They could be the product of a dominant offensive line. Baker, Justice, Kalil and Lutuii, that would be one of the NFL's better OL's. I can't remember if Chilo Rachal was the starter on that 2005 team but he's a pretty good starting guard for the 49ers too.

In general, I think skill players from big name programs are overrated, not necessarily just USC , but skill players from big schools just garner so much media attention that makes it difficult to live up to expectations.
That's exactly the reason why.The offensive success of those teams lies with that dominant offensive line, most of whom were starting by the time they were sophomores.

And I'm not necessarily trying to say SC's skill position talent didn't have talent. They did. Their talent just did not translate well to the pro game whatsoever.

Bush was Harvin before Harvin. He would have been much better had he been groomed as a receiver who occasionally lines up in the backfield as opposed to a runningback who occasionally lines up in the slot. Dude just blew through huge cutback lanes opened up by that offensive line.

Lendale was the second coming of Ron Dayne. He was bigger AND faster than everyone in college. His problem is that he thinks he's a scatback. That flew in college, but not in the NFL, where everyone is bigger and faster than him, not the other way around. He doesn't use his biggest asset - his size - to his advantage. He's got great feet for a big guy, but he relies on them too much instead of just putting his head down and running people over.

I think it's fairly obvious that Mike Williams and Dwayne Jarrett were going to face huge separation issues in the NFL. I don't think it's any coincidence that Steve Smith has ended up as their best receiver. He's undersized, doesn't have great measurable, and was forced to survive by developing his route running skills.

And then there's Leinart, who was pretty much Ken Dorsey all over again. I remember going to the OC Sportsman of the Year Roast for Leinart, where Carroll (tongue in cheek at the time, but still) saying how he thought USC was completely screwed in spring and fall practices because they couldn't figure out who sucked less between Leinart and Cassell. They would have been fine with either one, because they had a rock solid wall of offensive lineman, had two elite college backs to hand the ball off to, and a huge WR who could just post up on small Pac-10 DBs.

Like I said, I'm not saying that SC doesn't have skill position talent. It's just that the talent they had didn't translate to the NFL game. At all. And the offensive line made everyone look waaaaaayyyy better than they actually were.
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Old 08-30-2010, 06:42 PM    (permalink
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Is it crazy that the best USC QB right now is the one that never started a game?
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Old 08-30-2010, 06:43 PM    (permalink
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Is it crazy that the best USC QB right now is the one that never started a game?
Yeah, that's pretty much accurate. I'm not sure if my faith in Sanchez is misplaced or not, but I still think he can be decent.
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Old 08-30-2010, 06:45 PM    (permalink
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Sanchez will be fine. Hell, Palmer might even get closer to what he was... Just, right now, Cassel is the better QB of the group.
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Old 08-30-2010, 06:48 PM    (permalink
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Sanchez will be fine. Hell, Palmer might even get closer to what he was... Just, right now, Cassel is the better QB of the group.
I actually hadn't even thought about Palmer. I was thinking between Leinart, Cassel and Sanchez.

I'd still take Palmer right now over Cassel.
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Old 08-30-2010, 06:49 PM    (permalink
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How I would explain how Aaron Rodgers has been so good, breaking the Tedford streak, is that he was allowed to sit on the bench and learn from a living legend. He then inherited a great offense. Had he been thrown into the fire, like SF was, he would have had the success he has had.
Rodgers is good because he had the talent, he was a hard worker, McCarthy is maybe the best quarterback coach in the league, and he has run an above average to very good offense. He would have been good anywhere, but the Packers allowed him to be great.
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Old 08-30-2010, 07:04 PM    (permalink
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Rodgers is good because he had the talent, he was a hard worker, McCarthy is maybe the best quarterback coach in the league, and he has run an above average to very good offense. He would have been good anywhere, but the Packers allowed him to be great.
Maybe...we'll never really know though. If he was in San Fran where they've gone through 3 Head Coaches and something absurd like 4 offensive coordinators in 5 years like Alex Smith.....he may not have looked great either. But, we'll never know and he is in a place to succeed now.
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Old 08-30-2010, 07:07 PM    (permalink
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I think it's perfectly fine to say that circumstances and degrees of pressure are big factors in how much a quarterback succeeds are fails.

What I've never been willing to do is say that a quarterback who found success somewhere would have been an utter failure elsewhere. That's putting way too much importance on the environment and not enough on the player himself. It's an easy trap to fall into, because we, as outsiders, can evaluate the strength or weakness of an environment much better than we can evaluate the personality, work ethic, and general aptitude of a quarterback in the day-to-day.

If you want to use the Alex Smith/Aaron Rodgers example, this is about as far as I'm willing to go. The thoughtfulness and intelligence of Smith that impressed NFL teams is exactly the reason he's struggled. He was never willing to grab control of his offense and was just another player during all that turmoil. No one deserved to be publicly berated by their own coach like he was by Nolan, but someone better suited would have handled that better. I'm not trying to say that since Smith has this history that he can never be a successful NFL quarterback, but during his early years it was his tendency to over-think and to not be a confident leader that sunk him.

Conversely, it was the very "big man on campus" attitude that many teams cited as a concern that has helped out Rodgers. It helped him when he was forced to sit about as long as any modern era quarterback, it helped him when Favre basically refused to tutor him, and it helped him when he was put in an incredibly awkward situation as Favre un-retired (the first time).

I think Rodgers' immediate success can be laid at the feet of his ability to sit on the bench for all those seasons, but I can't possibility accept the world in which the only difference between those two players was the teams they were drafted to. Rodgers was better suited to be an NFL quarterback.

PS: The Tedford thing was ******** from the start.
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Old 08-30-2010, 07:11 PM    (permalink
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PS: The Tedford thing was ******** from the start.
Really? I can't remember who all was on it, but I saw a list of former Tedford coached QBs about 6 or 7 names long of which Rodgers is the only one remotely successful. Joey Harrington was definitely one of the bigger failures on it.
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