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Old 09-02-2010, 04:38 PM    (permalink
wonderbredd24
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Originally Posted by njx9 View Post
the moss thing is creative revisionism. most of this board was arguing that it was a good trade for new england and that the only thing wrong with him was oakland, iirc. just because mass media doesn't have the faintest clue what was going on (and let's be honest, that was a factor in some teams not wanting to touch moss, for any price) doesn't mean people who actually paid attention to football didn't.

and i should know, randy moss was one of my personal worst calls ever. i argued with most of you about what a bad move it was.
The price tag was still only a 4th round pick. There were 31 potential buyers in that situation and a 4th was the best the Raiders could do
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Old 09-02-2010, 04:40 PM    (permalink
abaddon41_80
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Originally Posted by Shiver View Post
Yep, it was Brady's fault Stallworth didn't post up better numbers. Had nothing to do with the 50 touchdowns, 69 percent completion and 118 passer rating.
Not saying it was Brady's fault, just that it is not like Brady turned Stallworth into a good receiver.
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Old 09-02-2010, 04:41 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by wonderbredd24 View Post
Stallworth was a draft bust.
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Originally Posted by Shiver View Post
Stallworth never did anything in his career.
4 of his 5 years prior to New England were better than his season as a Patriot
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Old 09-02-2010, 05:14 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by wonderbredd24 View Post
He also made Ty Law probably the 2nd best corner in Patriots' history
Boom roasted.
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Football...it's rocket surgery now, folks.
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Old 09-02-2010, 05:16 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by abaddon41_80 View Post
Its true that neither of us has any proof but your point about Brady's receivers during Super Bowl years is false, like I already said. Branch and Patten put up about the same numbers elsewhere and Givens never had a chance to. Brandon Stokley is a much better example. He never got close to his 2004 numbers elsewhere, even though he was starting more games.

My point is simply this, I refuse to believe that the Colts hit on every offensive position player they draft while the Patriots miss on all of theirs
The Patriots won Super Bowls with no names at receiver. The Colts won against Rex Grossman with two potential HoFers. But only Peyton makes his players better.
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Football...it's rocket surgery now, folks.
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Old 09-02-2010, 06:30 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by yourfavestoner View Post
Tom Brady made Wes Welker a perennial 100 catch/1000 yard receiver.

Anybody who says they knew that Welker was some dynamite talent who would become one of the best possession and YAC receivers in the league is lying.
For the last two years that Welker was a Dolphin, I can recall many people having him as their breakout player, especially with respect to fantasy football since hes also a return man. Plenty of people knew the potential for him to be one of the best slot receivers in the game was there, and honestly, i doubt welker puts up numbers like he does now on any other team in any other system.
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Old 09-02-2010, 06:37 PM    (permalink
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People thought Moss was done because they are stupid and feed into everything the media, and t he message boards are parroting. Anyone watching knew that Moss hadn't lost all his speed, ETC, but once an opinion becomes popular with a few big named people, the sheep squawk it.
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Old 09-02-2010, 06:37 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by prock View Post
The Patriots won Super Bowls with no names at receiver. The Colts won against Rex Grossman with two potential HoFers. But only Peyton makes his players better.
I'm sure the fact that the Patriots, and the Colts during their Super Bowl run for that matter, had great defenses had nothing to do with the Super Bowl victories. Teams win Super Bowls, not players.

Last edited by abaddon41_80 : 09-02-2010 at 06:52 PM.
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Old 09-02-2010, 06:37 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by yourfavestoner View Post
Tom Brady made Wes Welker a perennial 100 catch/1000 yard receiver.

Anybody who says they knew that Welker was some dynamite talent who would become one of the best possession and YAC receivers in the league is lying.
While not central to this discussion, this statement is just wrong. Brady didnt make Welker. Welkers number barely changed when Cassell started the entire season. You can argue that the Patriots system made Welker, but it was not Brady. The argument that Welker made Brady has more traction since Brady's completion percentage rose 5% (from a good QBs numbers to a great QBs number) the year Welker turned up (and that is due to the fact that the completion percentage to Welker is about 20% higher than any other top WR in the league).

Welker is great at what he does, and if an OC can design the right plays, then pretty much any QB can hook up with him a 100 times a season.
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Old 09-02-2010, 06:41 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Saints-Tigers View Post
People thought Moss was done because they are stupid and feed into everything the media, and the message boards are parroting. Anyone watching knew that Moss hadn't lost all his speed, ETC, but once an opinion becomes popular with a few big named people, the sheep squawk it.
People thought he was done because he quit on his team, people can say what they want but it's a fact.

Did the Raiders suck? Yes but it's still pretty sad that a player that talented would just shut it down like that.
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Old 09-02-2010, 06:53 PM    (permalink
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People thought he was done because he quit on his team, people can say what they want but it's a fact.

Did the Raiders suck? Yes but it's still pretty sad that a player that talented would just shut it down like that.
Quitting on his team and "omg he's lost a step" are two entirely different things.
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Old 09-02-2010, 06:56 PM    (permalink
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Quitting on his team and "omg he's lost a step" are two entirely different things.
Yes they are, quitting on your team is much worse.
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Old 09-02-2010, 06:57 PM    (permalink
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Yes they are, quitting on your team is much worse.

Not really, quitting on his team and going to a good team can change things.

BEing too slow to do what you do best isn't going to change no matter what happens.

Like someone else said(yourfavestoner?) Locker room cohesion is overrated, winning cures everything.
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Old 09-02-2010, 07:32 PM    (permalink
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I'm sure the fact that the Patriots, and the Colts during their Super Bowl run for that matter, had great defenses had nothing to do with the Super Bowl victories. Teams win Super Bowls, not players.
Yup. Your argument still holds no water. Don't quite understand what point you are trying to make.
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Old 09-02-2010, 09:39 PM    (permalink
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The Pats have had success with traded/free agent players though, so chalk up a point for the bad drafting argument.
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Ones that were already good, though. Dillon, Moss, Stallworth, and Welker were already known commodities when they went to the Patriots.
Right. they were known commodities because they were or had been good, and they did well in NE, unlike their drafted players, because their drafted players sucked.
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Old 09-03-2010, 12:03 PM    (permalink
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A little something from Bill Simmons' new article ranking QBs. He's not a football guy, but he understands the basic concepts of the game. He's an opinion writer, not an analyst, and I always enjoy his observations, even if they are off-base at times in regards to football (dude is a basketball genius, though).

Quote:
3. Tom Brady, Patriots
Seems a little high? Know that Football Outsiders had him ranked first in its adjusted rankings -- on top of the yearly reality that he doesn't get eight home games in a dome like Brees or Manning, FO calculates that he played the hardest schedule of pass defense opponents of any QB since 1993 -- and remember that it takes two years to fully recover from reconstructive knee surgery. The Patriots also spruced up their tight end spot (remember this name: Rob Gronkowski) and go four-deep at receiver with Randy Moss, Wes Welker, Julian Edelman (last year's find) and Brandon Tate (this year's find). Throw in their potentially lousy defense, the nonstop Brees/Manning/Favre/Rodgers hype and Bob Kraft's miserly refusal to extend his contract … and yes, all signs point to a monster Brady fantasy season. We'll see if it translates to a playoff appearance. Or a better hairc-.
(Crap, I slipped. Sorry.)

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2...simmons/100902
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