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Old 08-31-2010, 10:22 PM    (permalink
wonderbredd24
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Originally Posted by yourfavestoner View Post
Big reason of why it's shaping up to be an F U year.

Also, I agree with you on Brees as of right now. I started this thread right after the Superbowl, and people largely dismissed the argument.

http://draftcountdown.com/forum/show...ighlight=brees

Although, there seemed to be a large vote back to Brady for the #1 spot right after Manning's chokejob.
Since when did Drew Brees have great weapons? I'd love, love to see what that team does with ANYONE else under center. Yea, Colston is a good receiver, but are Devery Henderson, Robert Meachem and Jeremy Shockey really doing that much with anyone else? I really doubt it.
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Old 08-31-2010, 10:25 PM    (permalink
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Yeah seriously, I know I'm a pats fan, and the homer in me cant let me stand by and let people say Brady is behind Rivers and Rodgers. I love Rodgers but come on, lets see him win a few playoff games before we anoint him here. I can see Brees being thrown into the top three, I loved the guy since he was a charger and hes been consistent the past few years with putting up big numbers. But Brady outside of the top three is a joke, and having Manning anywhere but the top two is ridiculous as well.
Ah yes, the playoff wins finally come as a counter argument. He's played in one playoff game. I'll give you the overthrow to Jennings but atleast give me the facemask and lack of defense played by the Packers. He orchestrated one of the greatest comebacks in playoff history, pretty good first playoff game.

Edit: In no way am I saying Rodgers is better than Brady. Penalizing Rodgers for lack of playoff wins when he played in one is unfair.
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Old 08-31-2010, 10:28 PM    (permalink
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Since when did Drew Brees have great weapons? I'd love, love to see what that team does with ANYONE else under center. Yea, Colston is a good receiver, but are Devery Henderson, Robert Meachem and Jeremy Shockey really doing that much with anyone else? I really doubt it.
The quarterback is just as responsible for making the reciever as the reciever is for making the quarterback. Position players seem to get too little credit and the QB too much. Not just applying this to Brees but as a general statement. You can't simulate what a certain team would do with a different QB and vice versa. Not even in your head. I just hate that argument.
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Old 08-31-2010, 10:29 PM    (permalink
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Super Bowls, MVPs, Playoff victories, are all good things to bring up when talking about the hall of fame or rating players careers, but this thread is about this year. The fact that Jake Delhomme got to the Super Bowl or that Philip Rivers has never been there shouldn't have anything to do with ranking them on this season.
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Old 08-31-2010, 10:30 PM    (permalink
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I love that Brady had a "down" year coming off an ACL tear and he put up 4,400 yards and 28 touchdowns. The standards for NFL Quarterbacks is going insane. Dan Marino's record is going to get shattered soon.
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Old 08-31-2010, 10:30 PM    (permalink
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History is adorable - I guess that's sarcastic... and then you're argument was based on stats from last year... which is... history? You can't argue with the future because we don't know what will happen, all we know is what we did see.

I'm not arguing fantasy value - Rodgers is the best at amassing statistics.

But right now, you need a QB, you take Peyton Manning. Durability, consistency, awareness, physical ability - no QB puts those all together as well as him. Any thinking football fan with a slight knowledge would realize this after watching how the league has unfolded year after year. Brady's success, while impressive in it's own right, is much more predicated on how that TEAM was constructed - with the most memorable moment being how they were announced against the Rams. The 11-5 season with Matt Cassel is something that can be pointed to. Brady is a GREAT NFL QB, but Belichick's defensive mastery is a GIGANTIC piece of that mini-dynasty. Manning on the other hand, is the ONLY constant on that Colts team. He is the Colts. And they make the playoffs every single season. His consistency is uncanny and his meticulous manipulation of every defense is incredible - especially when you consider the moving parts along that line and with the skill positions. He's the constant. There is no one that has proven it for THAT LONG. Brees is a fantastic QB but he's not on the level of Manning because he's been the the playoffs once in the past three years. If he can be the centerpiece for a few more years, make the playoffs every single year, and keep healthy, then he can enter the conversation with Manning and perhaps Brady. Right now, he's a supremely talented, elite QB who just had one magical season. Manning on the other hand is the greatest quarterback of this generation.
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Old 08-31-2010, 10:31 PM    (permalink
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Ah yes, the playoff wins finally come as a counter argument. He's played in one playoff game. I'll give you the overthrow to Jennings but atleast give me the facemask and lack of defense played by the Packers. He orchestrated one of the greatest comebacks in playoff history, pretty good first playoff game.
Does it even matter? Drew Brees just got a Superbowl win under his belt and can't get credit. Why would Aaron Rodgers out and out brilliance the last 2 seasons be due any?

There's always gonna be another ******** hurdle to jump over. Let's see said quarterback put up great stats. Ok, now he needs to win in the playoffs. Ok, now he needs to win the Superbowl. Ok, now he needs to be great for so many years. Now, he needs to win multip... oh ****.
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Old 08-31-2010, 10:33 PM    (permalink
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Just to weigh in on this, how Peyton Manning won the MVP last year is beyond me. There is no way he should have won it over Favre or Brees.
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Old 08-31-2010, 10:35 PM    (permalink
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Just to weigh in on this, how Peyton Manning won the MVP last year is beyond me. There is no way he should have won it over Favre or Brees.
The AP clearly fell in love with the 14-0 start and credited to Manning, which he deserved. He may have been the most valuable player to a playoff team but my vote went to Chris Johnson.
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Old 08-31-2010, 10:37 PM    (permalink
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A lot of guys argue that Colston isn't even a true number 1 receiver, but when we talk about ranking QBs, suddenly Brees has amazing weapons and protection(despite two mediocre tackles).
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fwiw, i amz deunks ofs myt ass. ilo vez drinmoinz befotre i post. wha t a hreat ideas.z.
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Old 08-31-2010, 10:38 PM    (permalink
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History is adorable - I guess that's sarcastic... and then you're argument was based on stats from last year... which is... history? You can't argue with the future because we don't know what will happen, all we know is what we did see.

I'm not arguing fantasy value - Rodgers is the best at amassing statistics.

But right now, you need a QB, you take Peyton Manning. Durability, consistency, awareness, physical ability - no QB puts those all together as well as him. Any thinking football fan with a slight knowledge would realize this after watching how the league has unfolded year after year. Brady's success, while impressive in it's own right, is much more predicated on how that TEAM was constructed - with the most memorable moment being how they were announced against the Rams. The 11-5 season with Matt Cassel is something that can be pointed to. Brady is a GREAT NFL QB, but Belichick's defensive mastery is a GIGANTIC piece of that mini-dynasty. Manning on the other hand, is the ONLY constant on that Colts team. He is the Colts. And they make the playoffs every single season. His consistency is uncanny and his meticulous manipulation of every defense is incredible - especially when you consider the moving parts along that line and with the skill positions. He's the constant. There is no one that has proven it for THAT LONG. Brees is a fantastic QB but he's not on the level of Manning because he's been the the playoffs once in the past three years. If he can be the centerpiece for a few more years, make the playoffs every single year, and keep healthy, then he can enter the conversation with Manning and perhaps Brady. Right now, he's a supremely talented, elite QB who just had one magical season. Manning on the other hand is the greatest quarterback of this generation.
This is the type of hyperbolic **** that makes me despise Peyton Manning. He's not the Colts. Marvin Harrison is a lock for the Hall of Fame. Reggie Wayne is going to end up being just short of the Hall of Fame. Dallas Clark has a shot at the Hall of Fame. Tarik Glenn was a tremendous left tackle for a decade. Edgerrin James was absolutely ridiculous for a few years.

At the end of the day, Peyton Manning has 1 ring. So does Drew Brees. All those playoff appearances don't mean dick unless you make them count. Drew Brees may not make it as many times, but he won the most important game and beat Peyton Manning in the process.

Tom Brady is the best quarterback of this generation. He's been a tremendous quarterback, both in statistics, and in team success winning 3 Superbowls.

Peyton Manning may end up with more playoffs appearances than John Elway, Tom Brady, Joe Montana, Otto Graham, and Johnny Unitas, but you're nuts if you think he's better than any of those quarterbacks.
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Old 08-31-2010, 10:48 PM    (permalink
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This is the type of hyperbolic **** that makes me despise Peyton Manning. He's not the Colts. Marvin Harrison is a lock for the Hall of Fame. Reggie Wayne is going to end up being just short of the Hall of Fame. Dallas Clark has a shot at the Hall of Fame. Tarik Glenn was a tremendous left tackle for a decade. Edgerrin James was absolutely ridiculous for a few years.

At the end of the day, Peyton Manning has 1 ring. So does Drew Brees. All those playoff appearances don't mean dick unless you make them count. Drew Brees may not make it as many times, but he won the most important game and beat Peyton Manning in the process.

Tom Brady is the best quarterback of this generation. He's been a tremendous quarterback, both in statistics, and in team success winning 3 Superbowls.

Peyton Manning may end up with more playoffs appearances than John Elway, Tom Brady, Joe Montana, Otto Graham, and Johnny Unitas, but you're nuts if you think he's better than any of those quarterbacks.
Why are those players locks for the hall of fame? Because of Peyton Manning! Look what Austin Collie and Pierre Garcon look like right now... do you think that's a coincidence?

Tarik Glenn was a tremendous left tackle for a decade. Edgerrin James was absolutely ridiculous for a few years.

EXACTLY! Those were great players, and when they were gone, Peyton and the Colts found replacements and were more than fine.

All those playoff appearances don't mean dick unless you make them count.

Disagree. Rings are important, but every game matters and every playoff appearance "counts" to me. But to each his own. I enjoy the journey just as much as the apex.

Peyton Manning may end up with more playoffs appearances than John Elway, Tom Brady, Joe Montana, Otto Graham, and Johnny Unitas, but you're nuts if you think he's better than any of those quarterbacks.

I can't comment on any except an old Elway and Brady and to me, neither of those GREAT QBs epitomize "quarterback" and command an offense like I've seen Peyton Manning do.

My thing is - we are witnessing someone in the prime of his career who is doing something so boringly consistently INCREDIBLE that some don't even step back and enjoy it. We may not see another player like him in many, many, years. I love Rodgers, Brady, and Brees, but Peyton Manning is at a whole new level of "leading" a team from the QB position.
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Old 08-31-2010, 10:53 PM    (permalink
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Elite
1) Peyton Manning
2) Brees
3) Brady
Nearly Elite
4) Rodgers
5) Rivers
Very Good
6) Favre
7) Roethlisberger
8 ) Eli Manning
9) Romo
Good
10) Schaub
11) McNabb
12) Ryan
13) Flacco
Average
14) Cutler
15) Young
16) Orton
17) Palmer
18 ) Hasselbeck
Okay
19) Stafford
20) Henne
21) Freeman
22) Campbell
23) Sanchez
24) Kolb
25) Moore
Bad
26) Bradford
27) Garrard
28 ) Smith
29) Cassell
Disgustingly Awful
30) Delhomme
31) Anderson
32) Edwards


That was done fairly quickly, I may tweak things if I think about it a bit longer, but thats my rankings in a nutshell.
the disgustingly awful just makes this great.
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Old 08-31-2010, 10:58 PM    (permalink
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I love that Brady had a "down" year coming off an ACL tear and he put up 4,400 yards and 28 touchdowns. The standards for NFL Quarterbacks is going insane. Dan Marino's record is going to get shattered soon.
SFT!

Not only that but he had an injury (cracked ribs maybe) and Moss had a seperated shoulder I believe. Tom Brady is the best QB in the NFL IMO, but it's definately debateable.

1. Brady
2. Manning

3. Brees
4. Rodgers
5. Rivers
6. Roth
7. Favre

8. Romo
9. Shaub
10. McNabb
11. Eli

12. Ryan
13. Joe Flac
14. Orton
15. about 10 other guys

If I were just starting a franchise though, taking age, intangibles, and mfing awesomess into account I would take Aaron Rodgers over any QB in the NFL and it's not even close... He's going to own so hard the next 10-15 years. He and Rivers are going to be Brady and Manning part 2.

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Old 08-31-2010, 11:01 PM    (permalink
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I dont like ranking bradford as "Bad" When he hasnt actually had a chance or stafford as "okay" this early when he was drafted to a winless team.. Not fair and we should wait before labeling them.
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Old 08-31-2010, 11:22 PM    (permalink
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History is adorable - I guess that's sarcastic... and then you're argument was based on stats from last year... which is... history? You can't argue with the future because we don't know what will happen, all we know is what we did see.

I'm not arguing fantasy value - Rodgers is the best at amassing statistics.

But right now, you need a QB, you take Peyton Manning. Durability, consistency, awareness, physical ability - no QB puts those all together as well as him. Any thinking football fan with a slight knowledge would realize this after watching how the league has unfolded year after year. Brady's success, while impressive in it's own right, is much more predicated on how that TEAM was constructed - with the most memorable moment being how they were announced against the Rams. The 11-5 season with Matt Cassel is something that can be pointed to. Brady is a GREAT NFL QB, but Belichick's defensive mastery is a GIGANTIC piece of that mini-dynasty. Manning on the other hand, is the ONLY constant on that Colts team. He is the Colts. And they make the playoffs every single season. His consistency is uncanny and his meticulous manipulation of every defense is incredible - especially when you consider the moving parts along that line and with the skill positions. He's the constant. There is no one that has proven it for THAT LONG. Brees is a fantastic QB but he's not on the level of Manning because he's been the the playoffs once in the past three years. If he can be the centerpiece for a few more years, make the playoffs every single year, and keep healthy, then he can enter the conversation with Manning and perhaps Brady. Right now, he's a supremely talented, elite QB who just had one magical season. Manning on the other hand is the greatest quarterback of this generation.
The Patriots and Bill Belichick were both absolutely ******* awful until Mo Williams singlehandedly saved their franchise by nearly killing Drew Bledsoe. Vaunted Bill Belichick was 5-13 in his tenure at that time, and had already bombed out of Cleveland.
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Old 08-31-2010, 11:25 PM    (permalink
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I dont like ranking bradford as "Bad" When he hasnt actually had a chance or stafford as "okay" this early when he was drafted to a winless team.. Not fair and we should wait before labeling them.
I agree it's unfair. Difficult to place those guys though. Basically just put them where my expectations are for them. I don't expect Bradford to be good this year. I wasn't too high on him to begin with, and he's being thrown on a team with no weapons and a suspect line. Stafford is higher because I think he has elite potential, but I need to see more before I put him with more proven QB's.
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Old 09-01-2010, 12:29 AM    (permalink
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The Patriots and Bill Belichick were both absolutely ******* awful until Mo Williams singlehandedly saved their franchise by nearly killing Drew Bledsoe. Vaunted Bill Belichick was 5-13 in his tenure at that time, and had already bombed out of Cleveland.
And? Obviously Brady was a huge part of the turnaround.

But the scheme BB drew up against the Rams was absolutely brilliant. They were the only defense to slow down St. Louis that year. Belichick, Adam Vinatieri, Troy Brown, Ty friggin Law. Wiggins in the snow. Tuck rule. The Pats were led admirably by Tom Brady but he wasn't the single main driving force through all of it the way Manning was and always is.

If your point is Brady is to the Patriots what Manning is to the Colts then I will point to the 11-5 season without Brady.

People love the rings, but this is a funny game played with a funny-shaped ball. Winning the Super Bowl will always have some mystique but you have to realize that a large degree of opportunity and luck will always play into it. Something as simple as that tuck rule not being called and the Raiders move on. Hell, I could go the other way and Tyree doesn't catch that and we're talking about Brady having 4 rings. Injuries, bounces, KICKERS, just one stupid fumble, a blown call, anything - to expect consecutive year-to-year perfection in this game is impossible. That's what makes the consistency so special to me. He's always there at the end or near the end. And inevitably, something usually happens (just as it did for Brady against the Giants and Brady against the Ravens and will happen to every great QB). That's not an excuse, that's just healthy, high-level competition by the greatest athletes and coaches in the world.

My opinion on this topic is based mostly on just watching games. What I watch Manning do out there - I just don't see anyone else, week-to-week, year-to-year, come close to that kind of surgical offensive work. Maybe I'm older so I appreciate the 10 years of undeniable dominance, but with Brady I see a champion, great quarterback, with Manning I see an almost inhuman machine of consistent dominance.
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Old 09-01-2010, 12:33 AM    (permalink
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And? Obviously Brady was a huge part of the turnaround.

But the scheme BB drew up against the Rams was absolutely brilliant. They were the only defense to slow down St. Louis that year. Belichick, Adam Vinatieri, Troy Brown, Ty friggin Law. Wiggins in the snow. Tuck rule. The Pats were led admirably by Tom Brady but he wasn't the single main driving force through all of it the way Manning was and always is.

If your point is Brady is to the Patriots what Manning is to the Colts then I will point to the 11-5 season without Brady.

People love the rings, but this is a funny game played with a funny-shaped ball. Winning the Super Bowl will always have some mystique but you have to realize that a large degree of opportunity and luck will always play into it. Something as simple as that tuck rule not being called and the Raiders move on. Hell, I could go the other way and Tyree doesn't catch that and we're talking about Brady having 4 rings. Injuries, bounces, KICKERS, just one stupid fumble, a blown call, anything - to expect consecutive year-to-year perfection in this game is impossible. That's what makes the consistency so special to me. He's always there at the end or near the end. And inevitably, something usually happens (just as it did for Brady against the Giants and Brady against the Ravens and will happen to every great QB). That's not an excuse, that's just healthy, high-level competition by the greatest athletes and coaches in the world.

My opinion on this topic is based mostly on just watching games. What I watch Manning do out there - I just don't see anyone else, week-to-week, year-to-year, come close to that kind of surgical offensive work. Maybe I'm older so I appreciate the 10 years of undeniable dominance, but with Brady I see a champion, great quarterback, with Manning I see an almost inhuman machine of consistent dominance.
Meh, I see a guy who does really well in games that don't matter and looks like a flustered shell of himself in games that do.

You know how Steinbrenner called Dave Winfield "Mr. May?" That's what Peyton Manning is in football. He's Mr. September.

His substantial dropoff in playoff performance (in terms of winning record, statistics, being an "inhuman machine of consistent dominance," just about every category you can fathom) are far below his regular season performance. The players regarded as the greatest of all time raise their level of performance in the postseason. Manning, simply, does not.

The excuses for the guy are old and tired. I'm sick of seeing him beat up crappy teams in the confines of his warm little dome in September and October. Let me know when he does something in the postseason other than beat, arguably, the worst NFC representative of the past 30 years being quarterbacked by a borderline alcoholic. I have watched every single postseason game the dude has quarterbacked. He's not the same guy in January.

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Old 09-01-2010, 12:39 AM    (permalink
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Meh, I see a guy who does really well in games that don't matter and looks like a flustered shell of himself in games that do.

You know how Steinbrenner called Dave Winfield "Mr. May?" That's what Peyton Manning is in football. He's Mr. September.
Even if there is or was some weird truth to that... he's 10-9 in playoff games and does have a ring...

And in last year's Super Bowl he wasn't stellar but Drew Brees pitched a perfect game on the other side and he made one mistake. A big one, but I wouldn't say he looked like a shell of himself... he sure didn't against the Jets vaunted defense in the AFCCG which I think I'd classify as a game that mattered...

I think I'd explain the disparity between his regular season ridiculousness and scattered postseason struggles as the NFL playoffs being really ******* difficult.
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Old 09-01-2010, 12:45 AM    (permalink
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Meh, I see a guy who does really well in games that don't matter and looks like a flustered shell of himself in games that do.

You know how Steinbrenner called Dave Winfield "Mr. May?" That's what Peyton Manning is in football. He's Mr. September.

His substantial dropoff in playoff performance (in terms of winning record, statistics, being an "inhuman machine of consistent dominance," just about every category you can fathom) are far below his regular season performance. The players regarded as the greatest of all time raise their level of performance in the postseason. Manning, simply, does not.

The excuses for the guy are old and tired. I'm sick of seeing him beat up crappy teams in the confines of his warm little dome in September and October. Let me know when he does something in the postseason other than beat, arguably, the worst NFC representative of the past 30 years being quarterbacked by a borderline alcoholic. I have watched every single postseason game the dude has quarterbacked. He's not the same guy in January.
He's not borderline.

Before they beat Rexy, they beat Brady's Pats 38-34 in the AFCCG. That game not big enough? Or it doesn't count because Brady had beaten him in the past? A Super Bowl's a Super Bowl...

And last year he beat the Jets (who I'll argue were a very weak AFCCG team) but also spanked the Ravens - the team that killed the Pats the previous week...
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Old 09-01-2010, 12:51 AM    (permalink
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Even if there is or was some weird truth to that... he's 10-9 in playoff games and does have a ring...

And in last year's Super Bowl he wasn't stellar but Drew Brees pitched a perfect game on the other side and he made one mistake. A big one, but I wouldn't say he looked like a shell of himself... he sure didn't against the Jets vaunted defense in the AFCCG which I think I'd classify as a game that mattered...

I think I'd explain the disparity between his regular season ridiculousness and scattered postseason struggles as the NFL playoffs being really ******* difficult.
You must not have been watching the same Superbowl as me, because after the first quarter, they put a grand total of seven points on the board.

I don't know how you can call his performance in the final two minutes as anything else than a flustered shell of his normal self. He not only had the pick to Porter, but threw another one right to Malcolm Jenkins that he just flat out dropped.

10-9 with one ring, yet he goes into every postseason game as the favorite and gets upset nearly every single year. And then you have to consider his sharp decrease in production in the playoffs compared to his regular season numbers. Meanwhile, his contemporary has a 14-4 record with three rings and whose numbers stay on par with his regular season performance. His newest competition just beat him (and vastly outplayed him) on the biggest stage and had executed a flawless postseason.

But it's the team, and the system, and the incredible supporting casts and coaches for everyone else. Meanwhile, it's Peyton, Peyton, Peyton, and nothing but Peyton in Indy.

edit: I also don't understand the Cassel argument, either. They went from being in the Superbowl to missing the playoffs against the weakest schedule in the NFL that year (they played the AFC and NFC West for god's sake). Not to mention, the team that won the division won one ******* game the year before. One. Game. Think about that for a second. You go from being in the Superbowl, to losing your division to a team that was 1-15.

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Old 09-01-2010, 12:54 AM    (permalink
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It's better to be like John Elway. Have big time tools, and be pretty good but lose, and then win when you are on a stacked team and aren't even the best player.

Most comebacks ever!!!!!
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fwiw, i amz deunks ofs myt ass. ilo vez drinmoinz befotre i post. wha t a hreat ideas.z.
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Old 09-01-2010, 01:00 AM    (permalink
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It's better to be like John Elway. Have big time tools, and be pretty good but lose, and then win when you are on a stacked team and aren't even the best player.

Most comebacks ever!!!!!
At least when Elway was losing in the playoffs, his teams weren't favored. Elway was going to Superbowls despite being on a terrible team and a terrible coach (who served as an equally terrible GM). He was dragging them there kicking and screaming.
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Old 09-01-2010, 01:17 AM    (permalink
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This is what the real top 10 should look like.
1. Peyton Manning, Indianapolis Colts
2. Drew Brees, New Orleans Saints
3. Ben Roethlisberger, Pittsburgh Steelers
4. Aaron Rodgers, Green Bay Packers
5. Philip Rivers, San Diego Chargers
6. Donovan McNabb, Washington Redskins
7. Eli Manning, New York Giants
8. Joe Flacco, Baltimore Ravens
9. Chad Henne, Miami Dolphins
10. Jake Delhomme, Cleveland Browns
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