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Old 09-04-2010, 09:02 AM    (permalink
FUNBUNCHER
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Vick is the best runner at the QB position the NFL has ever seen, and probably will ever see, but he's a far cry from the best dual-threat QB to ever play in the NFL.

Staubach, Tarkenton, Elway, Cunningham, McNabb and Steve Young for my money were the best in the game at combining passing and running ability.

Vick had the tools, but for the most part was the NFL's greatest tease.
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Old 09-04-2010, 09:03 AM    (permalink
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People can say Vick is more physically talented than Peyton all they want, but there's no way in hell he goes ahead of Peyton in an actual draft.
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Old 09-04-2010, 09:30 AM    (permalink
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Michael Vick was the most physically talented out of the three, by far.

If we consider intangibles and intelligence in the equation? It's John Elway pretty easily, he has a better arm than Peyton Manning by quite a way and clearly had a better grasp on the QB position than Michael Vick ever had.
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Old 09-05-2010, 10:51 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by CDCB14 View Post
I second this.

Manning shouldn't even be in this discussion. Talent wise he can't even SMELL either of the other two's jock straps.
it might not be a physical talent but peytons ability to read defenses, make the proper adjustments and his leading ability to get everyone focused and on the same page is a talent non the less and a clear edge for peyton over the other 2 esp. vick....remember the question isnt whos the more physically talented for if it was anyone not saying vick would be wrong.
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Old 09-05-2010, 11:16 PM    (permalink
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The only people who would pick Vick in this debate are those who think running is the most important talent a QB can have. Elway and Manning clearly had better talents for playing the position of QB.
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Old 09-05-2010, 11:41 PM    (permalink
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For all the talk about Peyton not being able to win the big game prior to the 1998 draft (and I remember it well)... Keep in mind that John Elway never even led Stanford to a bowl appearance. Let me repeat that. John Elway never even led Stanford to a bowl APPEARANCE.

Vick almost won the national championship by himself for VT.

That said, run first QB's just aren't going to win you superbowls, and that's the whole point. Mobility is always nice, but I'll take the statue who can pick apart defenses being a pocket technician over some guy that runs 4.2 40 yard dash and a laser for an arm but can't play the quarterback position the way it's supposed to be played.

I'd like for my QB to be able to scramble and pick up an occassional 4 yards for a 1st down every now and then... but other than that...

Pocket passer >>> scrambler






BTW.. Randall Cunningham was the best dual threat QB I've ever seen.
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Old 09-06-2010, 01:16 AM    (permalink
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Elway almost made it to a bowl game and then all these laterals later... Wasted another late game comeback by Elway
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Old 09-07-2010, 02:35 AM    (permalink
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Elway, pretty easily imo. He was the perfect prospect, ability to throw,as well as run. But his legs still didnt define him as a player like they did with Vick.

Elway was a more complete prospect. He was the guy you would want to build around. He would be an easier player to build around as well, as opposed to building a team around Vick, which imo would be a very tough task. You would have to have specific players with specific skillsets with Vick. A player like Elway you could almost put anyone in there, and he would adjust. With Vick you have to adjust to him.

Im not including Peyton because I dont believe he was the prospect the other 2 were.
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Old 09-07-2010, 07:18 PM    (permalink
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as others have said Peyton isn't in this conversation.

Although Vick for years has been painted as the ultimate high ceiling pick, a few articles and notes have come out (what's coming to mind is an article from the San Diego Union Tribune that went into why the Chargers passed on Vick, for Ladainian) that show that Vick wasn't entirely untouchable.

There were always accuracy concerns. The fact that he was by definition a slash is IMO a slight concern as well, for injury related reasons.

I won't pretend I was around then but I've done enough reading and watching to understand that Elway was entirely without knocks as a prospect. He gets my vote.
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Old 09-07-2010, 08:00 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by JHL6719 View Post
For all the talk about Peyton not being able to win the big game prior to the 1998 draft (and I remember it well)... Keep in mind that John Elway never even led Stanford to a bowl appearance. Let me repeat that. John Elway never even led Stanford to a bowl APPEARANCE.

Vick almost won the national championship by himself for VT.

That said, run first QB's just aren't going to win you superbowls, and that's the whole point. Mobility is always nice, but I'll take the statue who can pick apart defenses being a pocket technician over some guy that runs 4.2 40 yard dash and a laser for an arm but can't play the quarterback position the way it's supposed to be played.

I'd like for my QB to be able to scramble and pick up an occassional 4 yards for a 1st down every now and then... but other than that...

Pocket passer >>> scrambler






BTW.. Randall Cunningham was the best dual threat QB I've ever seen.
That Tennessee team was ******* loaded. And Tee Martin led them to the National Title the year after Manning left, which really doesn't help Manning's case.
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Old 09-07-2010, 08:04 PM    (permalink
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How can Peyton not be in this conversation? Maybe if you take the mental aspect out of it, which is silly. We are talking QBs, right. Peyton has ideal height, good arm strength and is obviously very intelligent. I'll take great intelligence over great running ability or elite arm strength any day. Peyton's talents are near perfect for the modern NFL. And he's more mobile than he's often given credit for.
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Old 09-07-2010, 08:06 PM    (permalink
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How can Peyton not be in this conversation? Maybe if you take the mental aspect out of it, which is silly. We are talking QBs, right. Peyton has ideal height, good arm strength and is obviously very intelligent. I'll take great intelligence over great running ability or elite arm strength any day. Peyton's talents are near perfect for the modern NFL. And he's more mobile than he's often given credit for.
He has Bernie Kosar-like mobility.

Get the **** out of here with that ****
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Old 09-07-2010, 08:07 PM    (permalink
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He has Bernie Kosar-like mobility.

Get the **** out of here with that ****
Uh oh, a snappy one liner and some e-tough talk. I better leave right now.
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Old 09-07-2010, 08:10 PM    (permalink
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I'll take Eisen over Manning in a foot race.
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Old 09-07-2010, 08:20 PM    (permalink
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Peyton Manning has run for over 700 yards in his career. He averaged 4.1 ypc as a rookie. Many QBs don't even maintain positive rushing yards.

http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fu...oID=1854366559
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Old 09-07-2010, 09:10 PM    (permalink
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Peyton Manning has run for over 700 yards in his career. He averaged 4.1 ypc as a rookie. Many QBs don't even maintain positive rushing yards.

http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fu...oID=1854366559
yes Peyton is a dangerous option as a QB rusher
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Old 09-07-2010, 09:24 PM    (permalink
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Peyton Manning has run for over 700 yards in his career.
I cant tell if you are serious. He has started over 190 games and averages 3.7 yards rushing/game. 3.7 yards! Those kinda numbers dont qualify you as any hint of a rushing threat. It just means that a couple of times a year when plays have broken down there were no defenders on one side of the field and he could shuffle 5 yards before the defense got there.
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Old 09-07-2010, 09:42 PM    (permalink
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I cant tell if you are serious. He has started over 190 games and averages 3.7 yards rushing/game. 3.7 yards! Those kinda numbers dont qualify you as any hint of a rushing threat.
There's always got to be guys who need things re-explained...

I simply said he's more mobile than many people give him credit for. People often act like he's a statue. Not true. He can move around well enough.

And who cares if he can't run for big yards. He does his damage in the passing game. Why try to run for yards when you can get the ball downfield to pass catchers.
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Old 09-07-2010, 09:55 PM    (permalink
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That Tennessee team was ******* loaded. And Tee Martin led them to the National Title the year after Manning left, which really doesn't help Manning's case.


I watched Peyton Manning slice up Alabama's defense EVERY year.... it's was extremely frustrating to watch.. but also extremely impressive at the same time. I remember Peyton's first pass against Bama as a sophomore... it was an 80 yard TD to Joey Kent....


The team was even better the year Tee Martin was the quarterback.... I watched Dwayne ****ing Goodrich shut down Peter Warrick in the national championship game...


Im actually friends with several Tennessee fans that I've known for 30 years, and you would THINK that they all love Peyton and appreciate him as one of the best players that have ever played for the Vols... and 90% of Vol fans do..

..but you'd be surprised at the one's that still look at Peyton as the guy that couldn't win the big game for Tennessee...
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Old 09-07-2010, 09:58 PM    (permalink
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There's always got to be guys who need things re-explained...

I simply said he's more mobile than many people give him credit for. People often act like he's a statue. Not true. He can move around well enough.

And who cares if he can't run for big yards. He does his damage in the passing game. Why try to run for yards when you can get the ball downfield to pass catchers.
You are right, no-one cares that he cant rush cause he is a great passer. We werent the ones that brought in his "better than credited mobility" when arguing that he should be in the conversation. You pulled out the 700 yards as if it should be factored in. It shouldnt - while he is more mobile than a statue, his mobility does not translate into a rushing threat.
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Old 09-07-2010, 10:05 PM    (permalink
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I'll take a QB who's not a "rushing threat" over a QB who's not a passing threat. It's one-dimensional Vick who doesn't belong in the conversation with actual QBs.
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Old 09-07-2010, 10:24 PM    (permalink
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I'll take a QB who's not a "rushing threat" over a QB who's not a passing threat. It's one-dimensional, Vick who doesn't belong in the conversation with actual QBs.
The debate is simply who was touted as a better prospect. Vick had a great arm to go with his running ability. It just turned out that he never actually figured out how to use it. He was still an unbelievable prospect, and in many opinions better than Peyton.

No-one is debating who ended up as a better QB.
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Old 09-07-2010, 11:17 PM    (permalink
Halsey
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I consider intelligence to be part of a player's overall talent. An aspect of a QB's talent that's much much much much much more important than being able to run fast.
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Old 09-07-2010, 11:48 PM    (permalink
Timbathia
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I consider intelligence to be part of a player's overall talent. An aspect of a QB's talent that's much much much much much more important than being able to run fast.
Well that is not true. Ryan Fitzpatrick and Michael Vick are the two extremes in that argument, and I am pretty sure even dog-lovers would prefer Vick starting for their franchise (I am talking pre-prison Vick).

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Old 09-08-2010, 12:25 AM    (permalink
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I consider intelligence to be part of a player's overall talent. An aspect of a QB's talent that's much much much much much more important than being able to run fast.
Interestingly enough, there's a thread around here somewhere asking why QB scouting still sucks....

The answer is all over the place in this thread... on these boards, etc... "Omg he's fast"...

"Holy **** can you believe that guy's arm strength"...

"Billy McBill passed for 56,894 yards and 734 TD's in college"....



None of it means jack**** in the NFL... Nobody pays attention to the little things... the devil is in the details.

The blueprint for increasing your odds of hitting on a QB high in the draft has been there for years.... it's not guaranteed, nothing is.. but it certainly increases your chances of hitting and reduces the risk of busting out...


The hype for guys like Jerrod Johnson and Terrell Pryor as NFL QB prospects is ridiculous... neither of those guys are NFL QB prospects...

Nobody wants to talk about the Greg McElroy's or the Ben Chappell's or the Nathan Enderle's... unless it's as an after thought...

Fact is, it's most of the "athletes" that are "ranked" above them that are going to end up being the after thoughts in the NFL 5 years from now...
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