Draft Countdown Forums

Go Back   Draft Countdown Forums > Draft Countdown Forums > Pro Football

Pro Football Discuss professional football.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 09-08-2010, 01:18 AM    (permalink
Bengalsrocket
Pro Bowler
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 2,424
Reputation: 307159
Bengalsrocket is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Bengalsrocket is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Bengalsrocket is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Bengalsrocket is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Bengalsrocket is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Bengalsrocket is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Bengalsrocket is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Bengalsrocket is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Bengalsrocket is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Bengalsrocket is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Bengalsrocket is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.
Default

Honestly, Elway threw the ball when he was suppose to and ran with it when he got into trouble.

Michael Vick always seemed like the kind of QB who made one read and then took off running if it wasn't there, especially in college.

Like many have stated, no doubt Vick was physically gifted and if we're just going off measurements he beat out any one else at the QB position in the history of the league. But if we're counting skill & knowledge, then Manning wins this one for me (as a prospect even).

As far as him not being the unanimous best prospect of his draft, Leaf was a pretty good prospect himself and we shouldn't rewrite history just because we know he's a bust.

With all that being said, Vick was still an amazing prospect and right up there with Manning and Elway. I don't think it should be considered a land slide in any of these guys' favor, they all had promise that not many other prospects ever showed.
Bengalsrocket is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-08-2010, 01:22 AM    (permalink
Xenos
Veteran
 
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 670
Reputation: 22163
Xenos is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Xenos is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Xenos is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Xenos is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Xenos is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Xenos is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Xenos is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Xenos is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Xenos is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Xenos is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Xenos is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.
Default

Elway was the best prospect IMO. What hurt Vick was really his overall size. He had everything else but he was what 6'1? That's really the only knock I can take at him from a purely physical side.
Xenos is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-08-2010, 06:27 AM    (permalink
Saints-Tigers
Pro Bowler
 
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 4,857
Reputation: 659348
Saints-Tigers is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Saints-Tigers is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Saints-Tigers is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Saints-Tigers is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Saints-Tigers is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Saints-Tigers is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Saints-Tigers is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Saints-Tigers is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Saints-Tigers is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Saints-Tigers is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Saints-Tigers is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.
Default

Halsey is just mad that Vick was better than Matt Ryan.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by SNIPER26 View Post
fwiw, i amz deunks ofs myt ass. ilo vez drinmoinz befotre i post. wha t a hreat ideas.z.
Saints-Tigers is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-08-2010, 08:07 AM    (permalink
Saints-Tigers
Pro Bowler
 
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 4,857
Reputation: 659348
Saints-Tigers is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Saints-Tigers is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Saints-Tigers is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Saints-Tigers is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Saints-Tigers is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Saints-Tigers is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Saints-Tigers is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Saints-Tigers is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Saints-Tigers is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Saints-Tigers is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Saints-Tigers is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by njx9 View Post
ah, yes. peyton's incredible knowledge. that's so amazing, no one else has EVER been smart in the history of the league. being able to stand at the line of scrimmage and point at dbs. so much more important than being able to avoid a sack.

it WAS cute though, how you tried to minimize running ability. i'd hate to hear how bad you think randy moss is.

Eh, I hear what you are saying, but even if you just look at Peyton this year, he was only sacked 10 times, so he's doing a good job of avoiding it. Elway's career low in sacks were 18 and 20, two years where he played 12 and 13 games(one where he was in his last year, and threw for only 356 attempts, as opposed to Peyton's 571.

The only season Elway threw nearly as many attempts as Peyton did this year(his highest two are 551 and 605) he was sacked 38 and 39 times.

Beyond that even, he was behind a mediocre line this year(that's being generous), and it wasn't like he was just throwing the ball away, or only throwing dink and dunk plays to get the ball out, his yards per attempt were high as Elway's career high, his completion % was 5.5 points higher than Elway's ever was, and he had 470 more yards total than Elway ever did.

Again, I see what you are saying, but Peyton is obviously special in terms of his audibles and line calls, and just flat out getting the ball out quickly.

Buying time is nice, but Peyton doesn't have to buy time, because he doesn't need it, and he's better at avoiding sacks for that reason.

I could hear the arguments some years about how great the Colts line is, but this year sent me a big message, Peyton isn't going to get sacked a lot no matter who is out there, and he's not going to sacrifice efficiency in his passing game even if he has to get rid of it quicker.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by SNIPER26 View Post
fwiw, i amz deunks ofs myt ass. ilo vez drinmoinz befotre i post. wha t a hreat ideas.z.
Saints-Tigers is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-08-2010, 09:03 AM    (permalink
Halsey
Pro Bowler
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Cookeville,TN
Posts: 4,890
Reputation: 612105
Halsey is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Halsey is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Halsey is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Halsey is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Halsey is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Halsey is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Halsey is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Halsey is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Halsey is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Halsey is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Halsey is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.
Default

Look, Vick has a lot of fans to this day. I get that. Now that he's just a backup/special package QB, those fans can only talk about how great his physical talent is. That's why they need to talk about comparing his talents to actual great QBs, but don't want to include things like intelligence, leadership ability, communication skills, accuracy, decision making, etc. Things that matter is real QB scouting. They want to limit the conversation to aspects that skew the debate to Vick.

Maybe the next Vick thread should be: "Who was More Fun to Play with on Madden: Vick or Brady?"

Or maybe: "If the NFL never made the forward pass legal, who would have won more Super Bowls: Vick or Montana?"
__________________
What?
Halsey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-08-2010, 09:36 AM    (permalink
FUNBUNCHER
All-Pro
 
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Dodge City
Posts: 7,197
Reputation: 1111665
FUNBUNCHER is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.FUNBUNCHER is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.FUNBUNCHER is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.FUNBUNCHER is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.FUNBUNCHER is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.FUNBUNCHER is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.FUNBUNCHER is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.FUNBUNCHER is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.FUNBUNCHER is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.FUNBUNCHER is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.FUNBUNCHER is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.
Default

IMO the player John Elway resembles most in the modern game, is Ben Roethlisberger. Very similar in that they both scramble to buy time for WRs to get open downfield.

The real difference being that Big Ben has the advantage of size/strength that allows him to shed tacklers, while Elway used his wheels to stay a step ahead of defenders.

As for 'intelligence', there are a LOT of super-smart QBs in the league who can't translate that concrete understanding of the playbook into performance on the field.

Being a great QB is about more than a high Wonderlic.
__________________
FUNBUNCHER is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-08-2010, 09:37 AM    (permalink
J52
Rookie
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 181
Reputation: 6070
J52 wakes up in the morning and pisses excellence.J52 wakes up in the morning and pisses excellence.J52 wakes up in the morning and pisses excellence.J52 wakes up in the morning and pisses excellence.J52 wakes up in the morning and pisses excellence.J52 wakes up in the morning and pisses excellence.J52 wakes up in the morning and pisses excellence.J52 wakes up in the morning and pisses excellence.J52 wakes up in the morning and pisses excellence.J52 wakes up in the morning and pisses excellence.J52 wakes up in the morning and pisses excellence.
Default

People are saying Peyton because of his intelligence, but it's not like we knew he would be Peyton in 98. Alex Smith scored like a 49 on the Wonderlic and has sucked. Intelligence is just another attribute. It doesn't always work out; just like arm strength and running speed.

Dan Marino scored a 13 on the Wunderlic. A 13 is a couple points above dyslexic. Obviously players can perform without superior intelligence.
J52 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-08-2010, 09:40 AM    (permalink
Saints-Tigers
Pro Bowler
 
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 4,857
Reputation: 659348
Saints-Tigers is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Saints-Tigers is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Saints-Tigers is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Saints-Tigers is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Saints-Tigers is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Saints-Tigers is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Saints-Tigers is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Saints-Tigers is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Saints-Tigers is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Saints-Tigers is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Saints-Tigers is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.
Default

Anyone that watched Peyton and Smith knew that Peyton was amazing pre-snap and diagnosing plays, and Smith was only smart in the classroom.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by SNIPER26 View Post
fwiw, i amz deunks ofs myt ass. ilo vez drinmoinz befotre i post. wha t a hreat ideas.z.
Saints-Tigers is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-08-2010, 09:42 AM    (permalink
Paranoidmoonduck
Team Leader
All-Pro
 
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: San Francisco
Posts: 9,439
Reputation: 197475
Paranoidmoonduck is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Paranoidmoonduck is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Paranoidmoonduck is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Paranoidmoonduck is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Paranoidmoonduck is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Paranoidmoonduck is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Paranoidmoonduck is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Paranoidmoonduck is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Paranoidmoonduck is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Paranoidmoonduck is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Paranoidmoonduck is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.
Default

That's not the point though. The point is how many of those things like quickness reading an NFL defense, or ability to command a large number of checkdown plays at the LOS, or capacity for leading full-grown men are known when these guys are prospects?

In retrospect, Manning is spectacularly intelligent and capable when it comes to your average NFL QB. No one had a strong hint of that before he was drafted, just whiffs. Hell, even Vick led a pretty average team to the a National Championship game. Someone could be forgiven for thinking he was similarly capable before we saw his lack of work ethic in the NFL.

As njx said earlier in this thread (sorry if I misstate this here): Elway was the best prospect, Vick was the most talented prospect. Manning wasn't really quite on par with either, but he turned out the best.
__________________
Paranoidmoonduck is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-08-2010, 09:50 AM    (permalink
Halsey
Pro Bowler
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Cookeville,TN
Posts: 4,890
Reputation: 612105
Halsey is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Halsey is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Halsey is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Halsey is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Halsey is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Halsey is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Halsey is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Halsey is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Halsey is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Halsey is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Halsey is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.
Default

People keep trying to say that intelligence is not an aspect of talent because look at all the smart guys who didn't become great QB's. Does that also mean that arm strength and speed are not part of the talent picture because look at all the strong armed or fast QBs that didn't make it.

"Arm strength is not part of the talent picture because JaMarcus Russell!"

"Speed is not part of talent picture because Usain Bolt could never play QB in the NFL"

Sorry, but the mental side of a QB prospect is part of what scouts evaluate and is part of the overall talent a player has. Go read any QB scouting report and mental aspects are covered.
__________________
What?
Halsey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-08-2010, 10:14 AM    (permalink
Halsey
Pro Bowler
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Cookeville,TN
Posts: 4,890
Reputation: 612105
Halsey is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Halsey is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Halsey is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Halsey is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Halsey is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Halsey is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Halsey is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Halsey is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Halsey is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Halsey is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Halsey is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.
Default

Yeah, people knew Peyton Was smart in 98. It's not like he suddenly became a smart dude after becoming an NFL player. The guy was Phi Beta Kappa in college.
__________________
What?
Halsey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-08-2010, 10:19 AM    (permalink
FUNBUNCHER
All-Pro
 
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Dodge City
Posts: 7,197
Reputation: 1111665
FUNBUNCHER is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.FUNBUNCHER is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.FUNBUNCHER is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.FUNBUNCHER is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.FUNBUNCHER is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.FUNBUNCHER is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.FUNBUNCHER is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.FUNBUNCHER is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.FUNBUNCHER is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.FUNBUNCHER is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.FUNBUNCHER is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Halsey View Post
People keep trying to say that intelligence is not an aspect of talent because look at all the smart guys who didn't become great QB's. Does that also mean that arm strength and speed are not part of the talent picture because look at all the strong armed or fast QBs that didn't make it.

"Arm strength is not part of the talent picture because JaMarcus Russell!"

"Speed is not part of talent picture because Usain Bolt could never play QB in the NFL"

Sorry, but the mental side of a QB prospect is part of what scouts evaluate and is part of the overall talent a player has. Go read any QB scouting report and mental aspects are covered.
I think when people are evaluating pro prospects, 'football' intelligence is much harder to get an accurate read on, compared to more obvious physical attributes, which is why IMO QB is absolutely the hardest position to scout.

The 'knack' or innate skill to play QB, (knowing when to get rid of the ball, when to buy time, the ability to sense a pass rush closing in on you, when to throw the ball deep instead of dumping it off and vice versa, etc.,) is probably more important than any other trait for a QB.

You know the phrase come draft time that you hear so often, 'not a great athlete, just a really good football player'?

Of course intelligence is an invaluable characteristic for a QB, but scouts have a tendency to convince themselves that a QB is 'smart enough' if he's tall, mobile and has a cannon for an arm.

And then, how do you measure something like 'emotional intelligence', which one could argue was the downfall of Ryan Leaf because he lacked so much of it??

Personally I'd prefer to draft a prospect who had elite physical tools and average intelligence than a QB with a genius IQ and mediocre physical ability/basic skillset to play the position.
__________________
FUNBUNCHER is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-08-2010, 10:30 AM    (permalink
Halsey
Pro Bowler
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Cookeville,TN
Posts: 4,890
Reputation: 612105
Halsey is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Halsey is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Halsey is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Halsey is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Halsey is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Halsey is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Halsey is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Halsey is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Halsey is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Halsey is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Halsey is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.
Default

It's not like Manning has below average physical tools or that Vick was a physically perfect QB prospect. Other than great speed, what does Manning lack? Yeah, Vick has elite athletic ability and arm strength, but the guy is barely 6 feet tall.
__________________
What?
Halsey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-08-2010, 10:37 AM    (permalink
FUNBUNCHER
All-Pro
 
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Dodge City
Posts: 7,197
Reputation: 1111665
FUNBUNCHER is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.FUNBUNCHER is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.FUNBUNCHER is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.FUNBUNCHER is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.FUNBUNCHER is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.FUNBUNCHER is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.FUNBUNCHER is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.FUNBUNCHER is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.FUNBUNCHER is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.FUNBUNCHER is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.FUNBUNCHER is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.
Default

Weird how NFL scouts are slaves to certain numbers; if Vick had been measured at 5'11 instead of 6 feet, which IMO would have made negligible difference in his play as a QB, I doubt he would have been a #1 overall pick.
__________________
FUNBUNCHER is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-08-2010, 03:21 PM    (permalink
San Diego Chicken
Pro Bowler
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 2,017
Reputation: 69399
San Diego Chicken is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.San Diego Chicken is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.San Diego Chicken is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.San Diego Chicken is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.San Diego Chicken is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.San Diego Chicken is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.San Diego Chicken is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.San Diego Chicken is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.San Diego Chicken is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.San Diego Chicken is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.San Diego Chicken is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.
Default

Here's an article about Manning/Leaf from 1998 and why Peyton was a better prospect despite not having elite physical tools.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vau...45/1/index.htm
__________________
aka KGB Chicken
San Diego Chicken is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-08-2010, 03:28 PM    (permalink
yourfavestoner
#1 Vickscuser
All-NFLDC
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: LakerLand
Posts: 13,130
Reputation: 628697
yourfavestoner is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.yourfavestoner is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.yourfavestoner is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.yourfavestoner is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.yourfavestoner is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.yourfavestoner is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.yourfavestoner is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.yourfavestoner is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.yourfavestoner is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.yourfavestoner is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.yourfavestoner is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by San Diego Chicken View Post
Here's an article about Manning/Leaf from 1998 and why Peyton was a better prospect despite not having elite physical tools.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vau...45/1/index.htm
From that article: "I don't see Favre or Elway," Walsh says. "I see those guys on the next level. But Manning seems to be more pro-ready than Leaf."

Great article overall, though. Leaf and Russell are so ******* similar it's scary. Big arms, slow-twitch movers, overweight, and having a liking for prescription medication.

Last edited by yourfavestoner : 09-08-2010 at 03:38 PM.
yourfavestoner is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-08-2010, 03:39 PM    (permalink
CC.SD
Shock Therapist
All-NFLDC
 
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 11,293
Reputation: 1620321
CC.SD is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.CC.SD is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.CC.SD is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.CC.SD is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.CC.SD is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.CC.SD is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.CC.SD is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.CC.SD is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.CC.SD is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.CC.SD is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.CC.SD is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by J52 View Post

Dan Marino scored a 13 on the Wunderlic. A 13 is a couple points above dyslexic. Obviously players can perform without superior intelligence.
To be fair, he was probably high.
CC.SD is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-08-2010, 03:40 PM    (permalink
yourfavestoner
#1 Vickscuser
All-NFLDC
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: LakerLand
Posts: 13,130
Reputation: 628697
yourfavestoner is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.yourfavestoner is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.yourfavestoner is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.yourfavestoner is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.yourfavestoner is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.yourfavestoner is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.yourfavestoner is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.yourfavestoner is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.yourfavestoner is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.yourfavestoner is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.yourfavestoner is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by CC.SD View Post
To be fair, he was probably high.
Dan Marinojuanaaaaa
yourfavestoner is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-08-2010, 03:58 PM    (permalink
San Diego Chicken
Pro Bowler
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 2,017
Reputation: 69399
San Diego Chicken is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.San Diego Chicken is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.San Diego Chicken is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.San Diego Chicken is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.San Diego Chicken is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.San Diego Chicken is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.San Diego Chicken is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.San Diego Chicken is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.San Diego Chicken is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.San Diego Chicken is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.San Diego Chicken is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.
Default

Definition of talent:


–noun
1.
a special natural ability or aptitude: a talent for drawing.
2.
a capacity for achievement or success; ability: young men of talent.
3.
a talented person: The cast includes many of the theater's major talents.
4.
a group of persons with special ability: an exhibition of watercolors by the local talent.
5.
Movies and Television . professional actors collectively, esp. star performers.
6.
a power of mind or body considered as given to a person for use and improvement: so called from the parable in Matt. 25:14–30.
7.
any of various ancient units of weight, as a unit of Palestine and Syria equal to 3000 shekels, or a unit of Greece equal to 6000 drachmas.
8.
any of various ancient Hebrew or Attic monetary units equal in value to that of a talent weight of gold, silver, or other metal.
9.
Obsolete . inclination or disposition.



According to the book definition of talent, intelligence, aptitude, and mental capacity for success all factor in as much if not moreso; thus Peyton Manning is as "talented" as any prospect I've ever seen.

Bear in mind, I didn't watch John Elway in college. But I would take Peyton Manning's talent ten times out of ten over Mike Vick.
__________________
aka KGB Chicken
San Diego Chicken is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-08-2010, 04:50 PM    (permalink
umphrey
Pro Bowler
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 3,619
Reputation: 49207
umphrey is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.umphrey is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.umphrey is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.umphrey is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.umphrey is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.umphrey is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.umphrey is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.umphrey is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.umphrey is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.umphrey is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.umphrey is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.
Default

Vick easily. Rocket arm and one of the best open field runners I've ever seen. Keep in mind I'm comparing to what I thought Elway was like as a prospect because I wasn't alive in 1983. Trying to imagine based on how he was in the nineties.
__________________

Thanks to BK for the sig
umphrey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-08-2010, 04:55 PM    (permalink
San Diego Chicken
Pro Bowler
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 2,017
Reputation: 69399
San Diego Chicken is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.San Diego Chicken is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.San Diego Chicken is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.San Diego Chicken is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.San Diego Chicken is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.San Diego Chicken is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.San Diego Chicken is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.San Diego Chicken is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.San Diego Chicken is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.San Diego Chicken is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.San Diego Chicken is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by njx9 View Post
so you're saying that intelligence, in terms of talent, is so overwhelming that lacking every physical tool in comparison is irrelevant? or you're saying he's a better prospect because he was smarter?
I'm saying, of the myriad of factors judging quarterback "talent", Michael Vick was better than Peyton Manning at exactly two of them: arm strength, and outside the pocket mobility.

Every other factor you can think of for a QB, edge to Manning. Throwing a football with accuracy is a talent. Processing information quickly (progressions) is a talent. Having a very wide range of field vision is a talent. Throwing a route with timing just as a receiver comes out of his break takes talent. Anticipation takes talent. Having an in depth understanding of defensive coverages is a talent.

Michael Vick is a more talented athlete then Peyton Manning, but Manning is the far more talented football quarterback. He was then and he is now.

I realize it's just my opinion, but I would like to hear one thing Michael Vick was more "talented at" other than throwing the ball hard and far and running with speed to the outside.
__________________
aka KGB Chicken
San Diego Chicken is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-08-2010, 06:04 PM    (permalink
FUNBUNCHER
All-Pro
 
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Dodge City
Posts: 7,197
Reputation: 1111665
FUNBUNCHER is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.FUNBUNCHER is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.FUNBUNCHER is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.FUNBUNCHER is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.FUNBUNCHER is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.FUNBUNCHER is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.FUNBUNCHER is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.FUNBUNCHER is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.FUNBUNCHER is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.FUNBUNCHER is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.FUNBUNCHER is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.
Default

From that SI article, even though as a talent evaluator he's a little 'off the reservation', Bill Walsh would have creamed himself for the opportunity to draft Vick.

But I'm beginning to think after reading that SI article that if all three prospects came out in 1998, Elway would have gone first, ( the best combination of the combined skills of Vick/Manning), Manning second, and Vick third.

All of them probably would have been gone in the first 4 picks.
__________________
FUNBUNCHER is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-08-2010, 08:28 PM    (permalink
Bengalsrocket
Pro Bowler
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 2,424
Reputation: 307159
Bengalsrocket is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Bengalsrocket is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Bengalsrocket is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Bengalsrocket is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Bengalsrocket is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Bengalsrocket is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Bengalsrocket is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Bengalsrocket is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Bengalsrocket is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Bengalsrocket is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Bengalsrocket is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by FUNBUNCHER View Post
From that SI article, even though as a talent evaluator he's a little 'off the reservation', Bill Walsh would have creamed himself for the opportunity to draft Vick.

But I'm beginning to think after reading that SI article that if all three prospects came out in 1998, Elway would have gone first, ( the best combination of the combined skills of Vick/Manning), Manning second, and Vick third.

All of them probably would have been gone in the first 4 picks.
Yea, I respect Bill Walsh on many different levels, but he always did over think player evaluations. He seems to attempt to aim for a unique prospect when looking at QB's and often skipping over the 1st round projections and aiming for later round quarterbacks for the sake of having a different opinion (or trying to look like a mastermind). Michael Vick might be the first QB he would have agreed with drafting in the first round.
Bengalsrocket is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-09-2010, 12:23 AM    (permalink
Halsey
Pro Bowler
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Cookeville,TN
Posts: 4,890
Reputation: 612105
Halsey is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Halsey is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Halsey is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Halsey is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Halsey is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Halsey is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Halsey is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Halsey is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Halsey is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Halsey is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Halsey is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.
Default

In fairness to Vick, he did not grow up with some of the advantages that I know Manning had, and imagine Elway had advantages too. Manning was the oldest son of an NFL QB, probably went to good schools, and was overall better equipped for the life of being a superstar QB. Having said that, I still think Manning is just smarter than the average dude. Just look at his egg head. Vick had to overcome poverty, a deadbeat dad, etc. However, if all those kind of variables were equal, I still believe Manning has more 'talent' for being a QB.
__________________
What?
Halsey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-09-2010, 12:25 AM    (permalink
katnip
Veteran
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 1,045
Reputation: 14648
katnip is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.katnip is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.katnip is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.katnip is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.katnip is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.katnip is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.katnip is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.katnip is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.katnip is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.katnip is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.katnip is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.
Default

Based on their careers. John Elway all the way. Went to 5 super bowls, won 2 of them, 1 he beat brett favre. who many vastly overrate. at least most of the espn guys.
__________________
Jets, Mets, Knicks, and the U's too cool for uze

Sig by, Hitman D
katnip is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 01:10 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.