P.Manning vs M.Vick vs J.Elway..Most talented Prospect

[Timbathia]

Originally Posted by Halsey

I consider intelligence to be part of a player's overall talent. An aspect of a QB's talent that's much much much much much more important than being able to run fast.

Well that is not true. Ryan Fitzpatrick and Michael Vick are the two extremes in that argument, and I am pretty sure even dog-lovers would prefer Vick starting for their franchise (I am talking pre-prison Vick).

[JHL6719]

Originally Posted by Halsey

I consider intelligence to be part of a player's overall talent. An aspect of a QB's talent that's much much much much much more important than being able to run fast.

Interestingly enough, there's a thread around here somewhere asking why QB scouting still sucks....

The answer is all over the place in this thread... on these boards, etc... "Omg he's fast"...

"Holy **** can you believe that guy's arm strength"...

"Billy McBill passed for 56,894 yards and 734 TD's in college"....



None of it means jack**** in the NFL... Nobody pays attention to the little things... the devil is in the details.

The blueprint for increasing your odds of hitting on a QB high in the draft has been there for years.... it's not guaranteed, nothing is.. but it certainly increases your chances of hitting and reduces the risk of busting out...


The hype for guys like Jerrod Johnson and Terrell Pryor as NFL QB prospects is ridiculous... neither of those guys are NFL QB prospects...

Nobody wants to talk about the Greg McElroy's or the Ben Chappell's or the Nathan Enderle's... unless it's as an after thought...

Fact is, it's most of the "athletes" that are "ranked" above them that are going to end up being the after thoughts in the NFL 5 years from now...

[Bengalsrocket]

Honestly, Elway threw the ball when he was suppose to and ran with it when he got into trouble.

Michael Vick always seemed like the kind of QB who made one read and then took off running if it wasn't there, especially in college.

Like many have stated, no doubt Vick was physically gifted and if we're just going off measurements he beat out any one else at the QB position in the history of the league. But if we're counting skill & knowledge, then Manning wins this one for me (as a prospect even).

As far as him not being the unanimous best prospect of his draft, Leaf was a pretty good prospect himself and we shouldn't rewrite history just because we know he's a bust.

With all that being said, Vick was still an amazing prospect and right up there with Manning and Elway. I don't think it should be considered a land slide in any of these guys' favor, they all had promise that not many other prospects ever showed.

[Xenos]

Elway was the best prospect IMO. What hurt Vick was really his overall size. He had everything else but he was what 6'1? That's really the only knock I can take at him from a purely physical side.

[Saints-Tigers]

Halsey is just mad that Vick was better than Matt Ryan.

[njx9]

Originally Posted by Halsey

I consider intelligence to be part of a player's overall talent. An aspect of a QB's talent that's much much much much much more important than being able to run fast.

ah, yes. peyton's incredible knowledge. that's so amazing, no one else has EVER been smart in the history of the league. being able to stand at the line of scrimmage and point at dbs. so much more important than being able to avoid a sack.

it WAS cute though, how you tried to minimize running ability. i'd hate to hear how bad you think randy moss is.

[Saints-Tigers]

Originally Posted by njx9

ah, yes. peyton's incredible knowledge. that's so amazing, no one else has EVER been smart in the history of the league. being able to stand at the line of scrimmage and point at dbs. so much more important than being able to avoid a sack.

it WAS cute though, how you tried to minimize running ability. i'd hate to hear how bad you think randy moss is.

Eh, I hear what you are saying, but even if you just look at Peyton this year, he was only sacked 10 times, so he's doing a good job of avoiding it. Elway's career low in sacks were 18 and 20, two years where he played 12 and 13 games(one where he was in his last year, and threw for only 356 attempts, as opposed to Peyton's 571.

The only season Elway threw nearly as many attempts as Peyton did this year(his highest two are 551 and 605) he was sacked 38 and 39 times.

Beyond that even, he was behind a mediocre line this year(that's being generous), and it wasn't like he was just throwing the ball away, or only throwing dink and dunk plays to get the ball out, his yards per attempt were high as Elway's career high, his completion % was 5.5 points higher than Elway's ever was, and he had 470 more yards total than Elway ever did.

Again, I see what you are saying, but Peyton is obviously special in terms of his audibles and line calls, and just flat out getting the ball out quickly.

Buying time is nice, but Peyton doesn't have to buy time, because he doesn't need it, and he's better at avoiding sacks for that reason.

I could hear the arguments some years about how great the Colts line is, but this year sent me a big message, Peyton isn't going to get sacked a lot no matter who is out there, and he's not going to sacrifice efficiency in his passing game even if he has to get rid of it quicker.

[njx9]

Originally Posted by Saints-Tigers

Eh, I hear what you are saying, but even if you just look at Peyton this year, he was only sacked 10 times, so he's doing a good job of avoiding it.

right, but i know you know that wasn't actually the point.

[Halsey]

Look, Vick has a lot of fans to this day. I get that. Now that he's just a backup/special package QB, those fans can only talk about how great his physical talent is. That's why they need to talk about comparing his talents to actual great QBs, but don't want to include things like intelligence, leadership ability, communication skills, accuracy, decision making, etc. Things that matter is real QB scouting. They want to limit the conversation to aspects that skew the debate to Vick.

Maybe the next Vick thread should be: "Who was More Fun to Play with on Madden: Vick or Brady?"

Or maybe: "If the NFL never made the forward pass legal, who would have won more Super Bowls: Vick or Montana?"

[FUNBUNCHER]

IMO the player John Elway resembles most in the modern game, is Ben Roethlisberger. Very similar in that they both scramble to buy time for WRs to get open downfield.

The real difference being that Big Ben has the advantage of size/strength that allows him to shed tacklers, while Elway used his wheels to stay a step ahead of defenders.

As for 'intelligence', there are a LOT of super-smart QBs in the league who can't translate that concrete understanding of the playbook into performance on the field.

Being a great QB is about more than a high Wonderlic.

[J52]

People are saying Peyton because of his intelligence, but it's not like we knew he would be Peyton in 98. Alex Smith scored like a 49 on the Wonderlic and has sucked. Intelligence is just another attribute. It doesn't always work out; just like arm strength and running speed.

Dan Marino scored a 13 on the Wunderlic. A 13 is a couple points above dyslexic. Obviously players can perform without superior intelligence.

[Saints-Tigers]

Anyone that watched Peyton and Smith knew that Peyton was amazing pre-snap and diagnosing plays, and Smith was only smart in the classroom.

[Paranoidmoonduck]

That's not the point though. The point is how many of those things like quickness reading an NFL defense, or ability to command a large number of checkdown plays at the LOS, or capacity for leading full-grown men are known when these guys are prospects?

In retrospect, Manning is spectacularly intelligent and capable when it comes to your average NFL QB. No one had a strong hint of that before he was drafted, just whiffs. Hell, even Vick led a pretty average team to the a National Championship game. Someone could be forgiven for thinking he was similarly capable before we saw his lack of work ethic in the NFL.

As njx said earlier in this thread (sorry if I misstate this here): Elway was the best prospect, Vick was the most talented prospect. Manning wasn't really quite on par with either, but he turned out the best.

[njx9]

Originally Posted by Halsey

Look, Vick has a lot of fans to this day. I get that. Now that he's just a backup/special package QB, those fans can only talk about how great his physical talent is. That's why they need to talk about comparing his talents to actual great QBs, but don't want to include things like intelligence, leadership ability, communication skills, accuracy, decision making, etc. Things that matter is real QB scouting. They want to limit the conversation to aspects that skew the debate to Vick.

Maybe the next Vick thread should be: "Who was More Fun to Play with on Madden: Vick or Brady?"

Or maybe: "If the NFL never made the forward pass legal, who would have won more Super Bowls: Vick or Montana?"

or maybe we're actually, you know, talking about them as prospects, and not about them after 12 years in the nfl. i know, it's hard to believe, but peyton manning wasn't the greatest qb ever in 1998. he wasn't even the greatest qb prospect ever in 1998. he wasn't ever even close to the most talented qb prospect ever in 1998. you're basically saying, "well he's really good at all of this stuff in the nfl, so that must mean he was a great prospect coming out." the *only* knock elway had (winner) was the *first* knock peyton had. as prospects, they're simply not comparable. and that's not even to discuss what vick was viewed as when he came out.

[Halsey]

People keep trying to say that intelligence is not an aspect of talent because look at all the smart guys who didn't become great QB's. Does that also mean that arm strength and speed are not part of the talent picture because look at all the strong armed or fast QBs that didn't make it.

"Arm strength is not part of the talent picture because JaMarcus Russell!"

"Speed is not part of talent picture because Usain Bolt could never play QB in the NFL"

Sorry, but the mental side of a QB prospect is part of what scouts evaluate and is part of the overall talent a player has. Go read any QB scouting report and mental aspects are covered.

[njx9]

Originally Posted by Halsey

People keep trying to say that intelligence is not an aspect of talent because look at all the smart guys who didn't become great QB's. Does that also mean that arm strength and speed are not part of the talent picture because look at all the strong armed or fast QBs that didn't make it.

epic strawman. did you actually read the quote, or did you just want to knock one part of it down without bothering with reading the rest of it?

Originally Posted by J52

People are saying Peyton because of his intelligence, but it's not like we knew he would be Peyton in 98. Alex Smith scored like a 49 on the Wonderlic and has sucked. Intelligence is just another attribute. It doesn't always work out; just like arm strength and running speed.

i've bolded the parts that you might find relevant.

Sorry, but the mental side of a QB prospect is part of what scouts evaluate and is part of the overall talent a player has. Go read any QB scouting report and mental aspects are covered.

yippee. so you think peyton manning's intelligence was perfectly understood in 98? everyone knew he'd be a pretty smart qb? everyone knew vick was dumber than rocks? john elway was an idiot? or are you continuing to push a useless strawman, because it's the only thing you can actually argue against here?

[Halsey]

Yeah, people knew Peyton Was smart in 98. It's not like he suddenly became a smart dude after becoming an NFL player. The guy was Phi Beta Kappa in college.

[FUNBUNCHER]

Originally Posted by Halsey

People keep trying to say that intelligence is not an aspect of talent because look at all the smart guys who didn't become great QB's. Does that also mean that arm strength and speed are not part of the talent picture because look at all the strong armed or fast QBs that didn't make it.

"Arm strength is not part of the talent picture because JaMarcus Russell!"

"Speed is not part of talent picture because Usain Bolt could never play QB in the NFL"

Sorry, but the mental side of a QB prospect is part of what scouts evaluate and is part of the overall talent a player has. Go read any QB scouting report and mental aspects are covered.

I think when people are evaluating pro prospects, 'football' intelligence is much harder to get an accurate read on, compared to more obvious physical attributes, which is why IMO QB is absolutely the hardest position to scout.

The 'knack' or innate skill to play QB, (knowing when to get rid of the ball, when to buy time, the ability to sense a pass rush closing in on you, when to throw the ball deep instead of dumping it off and vice versa, etc.,) is probably more important than any other trait for a QB.

You know the phrase come draft time that you hear so often, 'not a great athlete, just a really good football player'?

Of course intelligence is an invaluable characteristic for a QB, but scouts have a tendency to convince themselves that a QB is 'smart enough' if he's tall, mobile and has a cannon for an arm.

And then, how do you measure something like 'emotional intelligence', which one could argue was the downfall of Ryan Leaf because he lacked so much of it??

Personally I'd prefer to draft a prospect who had elite physical tools and average intelligence than a QB with a genius IQ and mediocre physical ability/basic skillset to play the position.

[njx9]

Originally Posted by Halsey

Yeah, people knew Peyton Was smart in 98. It's not like he suddenly became a smart dude after becoming an NFL player. The guy was Phi Beta Kappa in college.

you avoided the question, then presented a non-sequitur as if it had relevance. please go back, re-read, then actually answer the question.

[Halsey]

It's not like Manning has below average physical tools or that Vick was a physically perfect QB prospect. Other than great speed, what does Manning lack? Yeah, Vick has elite athletic ability and arm strength, but the guy is barely 6 feet tall.

[FUNBUNCHER]

Weird how NFL scouts are slaves to certain numbers; if Vick had been measured at 5'11 instead of 6 feet, which IMO would have made negligible difference in his play as a QB, I doubt he would have been a #1 overall pick.

[San Diego Chicken]

Here's an article about Manning/Leaf from 1998 and why Peyton was a better prospect despite not having elite physical tools.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vau...45/1/index.htm

[yourfavestoner]

Originally Posted by San Diego Chicken

Here's an article about Manning/Leaf from 1998 and why Peyton was a better prospect despite not having elite physical tools.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vau...45/1/index.htm

From that article: "I don't see Favre or Elway," Walsh says. "I see those guys on the next level. But Manning seems to be more pro-ready than Leaf."

Great article overall, though. Leaf and Russell are so ******* similar it's scary. Big arms, slow-twitch movers, overweight, and having a liking for prescription medication.

[CC.SD]

Originally Posted by J52

Dan Marino scored a 13 on the Wunderlic. A 13 is a couple points above dyslexic. Obviously players can perform without superior intelligence.

To be fair, he was probably high.

[yourfavestoner]

Originally Posted by CC.SD

To be fair, he was probably high.

Dan Marinojuanaaaaa