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Old 10-23-2010, 05:01 PM    (permalink
wordofi
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I though Emmitt Smith was underrated at #28. I think he should have been in the teens at a minimum.

Also, I think Brett Favre goes in the top 10.
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Old 10-23-2010, 05:41 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by wordofi View Post
I though Emmitt Smith was underrated at #28. I think he should have been in the teens at a minimum.

Also, I think Brett Favre goes in the top 10.

28 for Emmitt was about right. For me there's a gap between Brown, Payton, Sanders and everyone else. And no way Favre is Top 10. In fact he's definitely on next week's show with Mooch as his presenter. I think he'll be the lowest of the 6 remaining QBs to be selected.

Montana, Rice, Brown, Hutson, Payton, Unitas, Graham, Baugh, Sanders, Reggie White, Munoz should all be higher.
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Old 10-23-2010, 07:28 PM    (permalink
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Does anybody really rate Marino over Montana or Elway? Why or why not? He's a better passer in almost every conceivable category.
FWIW, Montana was considered a game manager earlier in his career and blossomed statistically later. Sounds awfully familiar to me.
Marino had the fastest release ever, and good arm strength and constantly threw the ball, just how he liked it. He wanted to throw the ball so they did, its the main reason why he failed so much in the playoffs. He had too much control, same reason why Manning fails so often too.

But to the bold, as I stated above Marino was a better "passer" but he was missing "it". All he had was his quick release and good arm strength and nothing else, he didnt make plays with his feet, he was a statue. When he played defense that could get to him he was toast.

Montana and Elway especially could improvise in those situations much better than Marino could imo. That is what made them better players.

Marino was as 1 diminsional as the offense he was running.

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Old 10-23-2010, 11:53 PM    (permalink
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Chris Carter being ahead of Elway is a joke as well. WOW. Whatever, this list kinda sucked from the start. Now it really sucks.
Cris Carter might not make the list.
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Old 10-23-2010, 11:58 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by elway=goat View Post
Marino had the fastest release ever, and good arm strength and constantly threw the ball, just how he liked it. He wanted to throw the ball so they did, its the main reason why he failed so much in the playoffs. He had too much control, same reason why Manning fails so often too.

But to the bold, as I stated above Marino was a better "passer" but he was missing "it". All he had was his quick release and good arm strength and nothing else, he didnt make plays with his feet, he was a statue. When he played defense that could get to him he was toast.

Montana and Elway especially could improvise in those situations much better than Marino could imo. That is what made them better players.

Marino was as 1 diminsional as the offense he was running.
Isn't Dan Marino 2nd on the all time list for 4th quarter comebacks?
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Old 10-24-2010, 01:43 AM    (permalink
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Isn't Dan Marino 2nd on the all time list for 4th quarter comebacks?
What does that have to do with his ability to emprovise when a single play breaks down? Also, if that is your reasoning on why you think he might be more clutch, he finished his career with 2 more, but played in extra year in which he collected an extra 3.

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Old 10-24-2010, 01:47 AM    (permalink
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What does that have to do with his ability to emprovise when a single play breaks down?
He had no speed to speak of, but Dan Marino was extremely effective at feeling the rush, taking one step and completely evading the pressure. It's rare to see someone with the pocket presence and feel of Marino.
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Old 10-24-2010, 03:42 AM    (permalink
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He had no speed to speak of, but Dan Marino was extremely effective at feeling the rush, taking one step and completely evading the pressure. It's rare to see someone with the pocket presence and feel of Marino.
Great point and NFL Films did this nice piece on Marino's great pocket awareness and mobility for their Top 10 series - though Fran Tarkenton disagrees!! :)

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-h...QBs-Dan-Marino

In some ways it reminds me of a great quote on Dick Butkus by his Bears teammate Ed O'Bradovich.

''For Dick to run a 100yd dash, it would take him three days. But I wanna tell you something," continued O'Bradovich. "From that middle linebacker, 20 yards this way, 20 yards that way, and 20 yards that way, I mean nobody, nobody was quicker than he was.''
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Old 10-24-2010, 04:12 AM    (permalink
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Man im still not over cris carter not being on this list. Im just in shock. Im looking at these highlights and im like in pure awe. Cris Carter is tits.

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Old 10-24-2010, 05:22 AM    (permalink
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He had no speed to speak of, but Dan Marino was extremely effective at feeling the rush, taking one step and completely evading the pressure. It's rare to see someone with the pocket presence and feel of Marino.
I guess we can agree to disagree. One of the scouts(What he does for a living not some random internet guy) who posts on another website, had a pretty similar view to what I see in Marino, I figured I would share his take.

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Dan Marino is easily the most overrated sporting entity in American pro sports history.

Consider this:
The year before Marino, the Dolphins were in the Super Bowl with a career backup named David Woodley, a defense that ranked 5th and featured 4 Pro Bowlers and 3 DROYs over the last 5 years, and Don Shula as coach. Marino got them back to just one other Super Bowl, which they lost--and that was his great season.

Marino simply threw the ball a whole lot more than anyone else, that's why his numbers looked so awesome. He averaged almost 7 attempts per game more than any other QB over the period 1985-90. His QB rating+ (comparative to league average) ranks 20th, though to be fair he's way ahead of most of his contemporaries from the 80s. Brady is 14th. The closest career comparisons in terms of YPA+, QB Rating+, and Completion % to Marino are Jeff Garcia, Jim Zorn, and Daunte Culpepper--not exactly a list of all-time greatness. He actually ranks BELOW Mark Brunell in those combined metrics, and Brunell had a better playoff record (5-5) to boot.

As I've always said about Marino: if I need one guy to throw one pass, he's no lower than 2nd on my list. But there's a hell of a lot more to being a great QB than just being able to throw the ball great--and Marino was not good at much else other than throwing with that awesome release and velocity. He's the Stephon Marbury of the NFL--loads of great numbers but they're amazingly empty.
From Iceness: In a Marino vs Brady thread, I figure its somewhat relevent because him Brady/Manning/Elway/Montana all have been in discussion with this thread.
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Old 10-24-2010, 06:32 AM    (permalink
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Come on. Marino as a football player is on a different planet to Marbury in the NBA.

And why only look at Miami's defense in 1982 and ignore what the Dolphins D was actually like when Marino was there and in his prime.

Here is what I wrote in an earlier post on this thread.

From 1984 (Marino's 1st full yr as starter) Miami were ranked in the Top 8 offenses 11 times in the next 12 years. In those same 12 seasons Miami's best rankings on defense was 7th and 10th. The other 10 seasons the Dolphins were ranked in the bottom half of the NFL, including the bottom six 6 times in 7 seasons (85-91).

Their defensive ranking from 1984-94 in a 28 team NFL were as follows:
19th, 23rd, 26th, 26th, 26th, 24th, 7th, 25th, 10th, 20th, 19th.

From 1995-97 in a 30 team NFL the Dolphins D was 16th, 17th and 26th. Miami's Defenses did improve to 3rd and 5th for Dan's last two seasons. They won their wild card games both years but were then crushed by Denver and Jacksonville in the playoffs 38-3 and 62-7.

You can also look at their terrible running game. Troy Stradford, Sammie Smith, Lorenzo Hampton, Karim-Abdul-Jabbar, Mark Higgs, Bernie Parmalee, JJ Johnson, Woody Bennett, Tony Nathan and Andra Franklin all led the Dolphins in rushing during the Marino era. That's 10 RBs and only one (Abdul-Jabbar) ever cracked 1,000 yds in a Dolphins uniform.
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Old 10-24-2010, 07:01 AM    (permalink
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The '82 Dolphins got to the Super Bowl on the strength of their Killer B's defense which featured 7 defensive starters with a surname beginning with B.

By 1986 the Def had aged and declined to the stage where they were 26th in points conceded and 26th in yardage in a 28 team NFL.

What killed the Dolphins is that they drafted poorly after Marino. They never found him a decent RB and 1st rd picks were spent on Lorenzo Hampton and Sammie Smith, who was taken 9th overall in 1989 just 6 spots after Barry Sanders. Both players finished with less than 2,000 career rushing yards.

The Killer B's got old and were replaced by 1st rd busts Jackie Shipp, John Bosa and Eric Kumerow. Bosa and Kumerow were DEs who finished with 12 career sacks between them. 2nd rd picks were spent on a DE and 3 LBs during the mid to late 80s and John Offerdahl was the only success. The other three players were busts. That's seven defensive picks in the first two rounds on DEs and LBs and 6 were busts. Combine that with the Hampton and Smith disappointments in the 1st rd and Marino was unfortunate the Dolphins drafted like Matt Millen during his prime.

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Old 10-24-2010, 07:07 AM    (permalink
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Man im still not over cris carter not being on this list. Im just in shock. Im looking at these highlights and im like in pure awe. Cris Carter is tits.
Rice and Moss will end up being the only WRs on this Top 100 list who were drafted since the merger in 1970. No Carter. No Largent.
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Old 10-24-2010, 08:07 AM    (permalink
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Come on. Marino as a football player is on a different planet to Marbury in the NBA.

And why only look at Miami's defense in 1982 and ignore what the Dolphins D was actually like when Marino was there and in his prime.

Here is what I wrote in an earlier post on this thread.

From 1984 (Marino's 1st full yr as starter) Miami were ranked in the Top 8 offenses 11 times in the next 12 years. In those same 12 seasons Miami's best rankings on defense was 7th and 10th. The other 10 seasons the Dolphins were ranked in the bottom half of the NFL, including the bottom six 6 times in 7 seasons (85-91).

Their defensive ranking from 1984-94 in a 28 team NFL were as follows:
19th, 23rd, 26th, 26th, 26th, 24th, 7th, 25th, 10th, 20th, 19th.

From 1995-97 in a 30 team NFL the Dolphins D was 16th, 17th and 26th. Miami's Defenses did improve to 3rd and 5th for Dan's last two seasons. They won their wild card games both years but were then crushed by Denver and Jacksonville in the playoffs 38-3 and 62-7.

You can also look at their terrible running game. Troy Stradford, Sammie Smith, Lorenzo Hampton, Karim-Abdul-Jabbar, Mark Higgs, Bernie Parmalee, JJ Johnson, Woody Bennett, Tony Nathan and Andra Franklin all led the Dolphins in rushing during the Marino era. That's 10 RBs and only one (Abdul-Jabbar) ever cracked 1,000 yds in a Dolphins uniform.
While I agree the Marbury comparison is extreme, I stand by what I said above. Marino is overrated and was missing "it". He had too much control of an offense, was allowed to fling it way to much to pad his stats, and he was his own ultimate downfall.

As far as his defense goes..

http://www.coldhardfootballfacts.com...mythology.html

Quote:
Myth: Dan Marino had no defense.

Cold, Hard Football Facts: Marino played 17 seasons in the NFL. Twice, he had the luxury of playing with the league’s No. 1 scoring defense: his rookie year of 1983 (15.6 points per game), and again in 1998 (16.6 points per game). That’s a pretty enviable ratio in a league that had 28 and then 30 teams in Marino’s playing days.

Consider this: Terry Bradshaw played 14 seasons in Pittsburgh and won four Super Bowls. The famed Steel Curtain defense that he played with led the league in scoring just twice in those 14 years. Of Bradshaw's four title teams, only one boasted the league's best scoring defense.

In Marino’s record-setting 1984 season, the Dolphins had the No. 1 scoring offense in football and the No. 6 scoring defense (18.6 points per game). The 1990 Dolphins, meanwhile, boasted the league’s No. 4 scoring defense, surrendering just 15.1 points per game.

There’s no doubt Marino played with some poor defenses in his day, but that’s the price of playing in the league 17 years. But the Cold, Hard Football Facts show that he also played with several defenses more than strong enough to win Super Bowls.

Running game:

Myth: Marino had no running game.

Quote:
Cold, Hard Football Facts: Marino joined Miami at a time when it had a reputation of being the best ground team in football. In fact, the year before Marino was drafted, the Dolphins made it all the way to the Super Bowl on the strength of a great running game and great defense.

In Marino’s rookie year, 1983, the Dolphins racked up 2,150 yards on the ground. In 1984, Marino set single-season records with 48 touchdowns and 5,084 yards passing. The Dolphins still managed 1,918 rushing yards and averaged 4.0 yards per carry.

It would be disingenuous to say that the Dolphins were a great running team later in Marino’s career. Of course, much of that can be attributed to too few rushing attempts and a misguided faith placed in Marino’s arm.

But consider this: The New England Patriots went 17-2 and won the Super Bowl last year while averaging a woeful 3.4 yards per rushing attempt. The Dolphins averaged more than 3.4 yards per rushing attempt 14 times in Marino’s 17 seasons. In other words, Marino's Dolphins ran the ball more than well enough to win Super Bowls.
He did it himself?

Quote:
Myth: Marino had to carry the Dolphins himself.

Cold, Hard Football Facts: Few quarterbacks in NFL history have been surrounded by more talent than Marino.

In his 17-year career, Marino played with 55 players named to the Pro Bowl. Marino himself was named a Pro Bowler nine times. That’s a remarkable 64 Pro Bowl players, or nearly four for every season Marino spent in the NFL. Four times in Marino’s career, the Dolphins boasted five or more Pro Bowl players in a single season. Compare that with New England’s two Super Bowl teams, which had a total of just five Pro Bowl players.

Marino also had the rare luxury of joining a team that had played in the Super Bowl the year before he arrived. He also played most of his career for the winningest coach in NFL history, Don Shula.

Shula has quite a resume. Working with quarterbacks Bob Griese, Earl Morrall and Johnny Unitas, he led the Colts and Dolphins to five Super Bowls in 15 years. Over the next 13 seasons, working with Marino, he appeared in just one more Super Bowl. He lost.

If any quarterback in NFL history walked into an ideal situation in which to win a Super Bowl, it was Dan Marino.
Somewhat describes Peyton Manning in this description here..

Quote:
Myth: Marino was a big-game quarterback.

Cold, Hard Football Facts: Want to know the real reason why Marino never won a Super Bowl? Sadly, the answer sits with Dan Marino himself.

Simply put, Marino did not elevate his game in the playoffs. In fact, his played dropped off quite noticeably. Marino has a career regular season passer rating of 86.4. His postseason passer rating was just 77.1. He played in 18 playoff games, and won just eight of them.

In his one Super Bowl appearance (a 38-16 loss to the 49ers in Super Bowl XIX), Marino completed 29 of 50 passes for 318 yards, 1 TD and 2 INTs. It adds up to a weak 66.9 passer rating. One wonders what might have happened had his two Super Bowl drives that ended in interceptions ended in touchdowns instead.

Remember that 1998 Miami team that had the best defense in football? It made the playoffs, but Marino failed to hold up his end of the bargain. The season ended in the second round of the playoffs, with Marino coughing up two interceptions against Denver and posting a passer rating of just 65.5. Yet another opportunity for Marino to win a Super Bowl tossed into the hands of an opposing defender.


In fact, Marino threw at least one interception in 13 of his 18 career playoff games. He threw two or more interceptions 10 times. The Dolphins went just 1-9 in those 10 Marino multi-interception playoff games.

So, DollFans, if you're looking for a reason why Miami never won a Super Bowl in the 1980s or 90s, look no further than the faded Dan Marino poster still taped to the ceiling over your bed.
I think the coldhardfootballfacts crew, pretty much described Dan Marino to a T.
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Old 10-24-2010, 08:43 AM    (permalink
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As far as Elway goes, I know he was bad in the Superbowls, and his passing numbers are nothing to write home about(even though he somehow found his way to many of the top 5-10 statistically in most major catagorys).

However, Elway is the only player I have seen that litterally put a team on his back. A team that would not of made the playoffs without him, and he took 3 of them to the superbowl. Although they were smoked in the games, and had no right being there, on the same field as those teams they faced, especally the stacked 9ers team.. One thing You have to think about..

Elway never played with a hall of famer, through out the 80's and up untill around 95-96(When Sharp started coming on). He never had a Pro Bowl WR, or Offensive linemen untill around 91ish. I think Bobby Humphires made a Pro Bowl in 90 or 91. Those Broncos teams were the least talented teams ever to make a Superbowl, and they made it 3 times.

I dont see anyone, with the kind of talent on those Broncos teams, doing that. One(possibly 2, havent looked the numbers up in awhile) of the Broncos teams didnt have a thousand yard Reciever or Runningback. That should tell you something about the impact that guy had on the team. He was the heart and soul of those teams.

The only other really memerable players from those teams, was Mecklenberg and Atwater(who should be a HOF'er).
He well deserved the MVP in 87 and he should have about 2-3 more.
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Old 10-24-2010, 10:47 AM    (permalink
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one thing I found highly amusing is that the same guys who always say "defense wins championships" get to make a list and offensive guys outnumer the defensive guys 2 to 1.... hypocricy much?
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Old 10-24-2010, 12:37 PM    (permalink
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Dan Marino was a lot better than Elway.
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Old 10-24-2010, 12:42 PM    (permalink
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Who were these 55 Pro Bowlers?
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Old 10-24-2010, 12:44 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by elway=goat View Post
I think the coldhardfootballfacts crew, pretty much described Dan Marino to a T.
I think they are cherry picking to suit their argument while ignoring the total picture.

The Dolphins defensive ranking from 1984-94 in a 28 team NFL were as follows: 19th, 23rd, 26th, 26th, 26th, 24th, 7th, 25th, 10th, 20th, 19th.

They were bottom half for 95-97.

Are we really going to compare the Steel Curtain to that? Its like saying Walter Payton and Christian Okoye are comparible because they both led the NFL in rushing just once.

The only thing you could possibly criticise is 1998 and 99 when they had a good young defense under Jimmy Johnson. A defense which then gave up 100 points in two playoff games.

And btw - I'm a big Elway fan but Marino was just better imo. Gary Zimmerman was a HOF left tackle on those Super Bowl teams. Terrell Davis was a 2,000 yd rusher behind an excellent line. Shannon Sharpe - future HOFer. Smith, McCaffrey - very good WRs. The D was pretty good too. Those teams were loaded. Miami had Karim-Abdul-Jabbar and OJ McDuffie as their leading offensive 'stars' besides Dan in 1998-99.

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Old 10-24-2010, 12:46 PM    (permalink
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I think they are cherry picking to suit their argument whil eignoring the total picture.

The Dolphins defensive ranking from 1984-94 in a 28 team NFL were as follows: 19th, 23rd, 26th, 26th, 26th, 24th, 7th, 25th, 10th, 20th, 19th.

They were bottom half for 95-97.

Are we really going to compare the Steel Curtain to that? Its like saying Walter Payton and Christian Okoye are comparible because they both led the NFL in rushing just once.

The only thing you could possibly criticise is 1998 and 99 when they had a good young defense under Jimmy Johnson. A defense which then gave up 100 points in two playoff games.
My thoughts exactly.
When did a high scoring defense equal a good defense?
They can score 2 TDs a game if they want but if they give up 40 a game- who cares?
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Old 10-24-2010, 08:47 PM    (permalink
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one thing I found highly amusing is that the same guys who always say "defense wins championships" get to make a list and offensive guys outnumer the defensive guys 2 to 1.... hypocricy much?
Perhaps. But I think that phrase applies to a team aspect. Not individual players.
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Old 10-24-2010, 08:49 PM    (permalink
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As far as Elway goes, I know he was bad in the Superbowls, and his passing numbers are nothing to write home about(even though he somehow found his way to many of the top 5-10 statistically in most major catagorys).

However, Elway is the only player I have seen that litterally put a team on his back. A team that would not of made the playoffs without him, and he took 3 of them to the superbowl. Although they were smoked in the games, and had no right being there, on the same field as those teams they faced, especally the stacked 9ers team.. One thing You have to think about..

Elway never played with a hall of famer, through out the 80's and up untill around 95-96(When Sharp started coming on). He never had a Pro Bowl WR, or Offensive linemen untill around 91ish. I think Bobby Humphires made a Pro Bowl in 90 or 91. Those Broncos teams were the least talented teams ever to make a Superbowl, and they made it 3 times.

I dont see anyone, with the kind of talent on those Broncos teams, doing that. One(possibly 2, havent looked the numbers up in awhile) of the Broncos teams didnt have a thousand yard Reciever or Runningback. That should tell you something about the impact that guy had on the team. He was the heart and soul of those teams.

The only other really memerable players from those teams, was Mecklenberg and Atwater(who should be a HOF'er).
He well deserved the MVP in 87 and he should have about 2-3 more.
Don't forget Dennis Smith.

As far as Elway goes, I have a lot of respect for the man and I'm glad he won two rings.
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Old 10-24-2010, 10:26 PM    (permalink
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My thoughts exactly.
When did a high scoring defense equal a good defense?
They can score 2 TDs a game if they want but if they give up 40 a game- who cares?
Scoring defense is how much they were giving up, not how much they scored. Which is more important than how many yards you are giving up.
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Old 10-24-2010, 10:27 PM    (permalink
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I think they are cherry picking to suit their argument while ignoring the total picture.

The Dolphins defensive ranking from 1984-94 in a 28 team NFL were as follows: 19th, 23rd, 26th, 26th, 26th, 24th, 7th, 25th, 10th, 20th, 19th.

They were bottom half for 95-97.

Are we really going to compare the Steel Curtain to that? Its like saying Walter Payton and Christian Okoye are comparible because they both led the NFL in rushing just once.

The only thing you could possibly criticise is 1998 and 99 when they had a good young defense under Jimmy Johnson. A defense which then gave up 100 points in two playoff games.

And btw - I'm a big Elway fan but Marino was just better imo. Gary Zimmerman was a HOF left tackle on those Super Bowl teams. Terrell Davis was a 2,000 yd rusher behind an excellent line. Shannon Sharpe - future HOFer. Smith, McCaffrey - very good WRs. The D was pretty good too. Those teams were loaded. Miami had Karim-Abdul-Jabbar and OJ McDuffie as their leading offensive 'stars' besides Dan in 1998-99.

Scoring defense is more important, a team can give up 400 yards a game, but if they only allow 2 touchdowns at the end of the day thats more important.

Also you completely ignored is playoff incompetency. The Multie interception stat is huge.
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Old 10-25-2010, 02:38 AM    (permalink
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Scoring defense is more important, a team can give up 400 yards a game, but if they only allow 2 touchdowns at the end of the day thats more important.

Also you completely ignored is playoff incompetency. The Multie interception stat is huge.
Pittsburgh's scoring D from 1972-79.
2nd, 8th, 2nd, 2nd, 1st, 17th, 1st, 5th. (Top 2 5 times in 8 years)

Miami's scoring D in the Marino era.
1st, 7th, 12th, 26th, 16th, 24th, 22nd, 4th, 24th, 11th, 24th, 17th, 10th, 17th, 16th, 1st, 19th.

Now take a deeper look at when Marino was both the full-time starter and the Defense was good in scoring.

In 1984, Marino's first full season as a starter, the D was 7th in scoring and they advanced to the Super Bowl where they lost to the 15-1 49ers at Stanford Stadium. No disgrace there.

In 1990 when the D finished 4th in scoring Miami were 12-4 but Buffalo won the division at 13-3 and beat the Dolphins 44-34 in the divisional playoff. Can't really blame Dan for that one either. Those Bills teams were loaded and won the 1st of 4 straight AFCCG.

In 1998 Miami led the NFL in defensive scoring. However the offense was just 16th in both scoring and total yardage. The running game featuring Abdul-Jabbar and John Avery had a 3.4 ypc. The leading receivers were OJ McDuffie, Orande Gadsden and Lamar Thomas. Now compare that to Denver with Elway's weapons that season - a 2,000 yd RB, an All-Pro TE in Sharpe and two 1,000 yd WRs. Three Broncos OL also went to the Pro Bowl that year. The defense was ranked 8th in scoring and the Broncos went 14-2 on their way to the 2nd consecutive title. Denver beat Miami 38-3 in the playoffs with Davis rushing for 199 yds and 2 TDs. Marino 26-37, 243, 0-2. Elway 14-23, 182, 1-0.

In Denver's Super Bowl victory over Green Bay, Elway was 12-22, 129 yds, 0 TD and 1 INT for a 51.9 rating. His other SB QB ratings were 83.6 vs NYG, 36.8 vs Wash, 19.4 vs SF and 99.2 vs the huge underdog Atlanta Falcons. Marino's QB rating in SB 19 was 66.9.


Career postseason numbers:
Marino
18 games
385-687
56.0%
4,510 yds
32-24 TD/INT ratio
77.1 QB rating (5 games over 100)


Elway
22 games
355-651
54.5%
4,964 yds
27-21 TD/INT ratio
79.7 QB rating (5 games over 100)


Regular season - Marino blows Elway apart.

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