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Old 11-05-2010, 11:40 AM    (permalink
elway=goat
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Originally Posted by jth1331 View Post
I still think its a travesty Elway was ranked so low, in the 20's, behind Tom Brady.
Took 5 teams to the Super Bowl, 3 of them he had little help on offense, a decent defense but not great. He had all the tools, and if it weren't for a lack of a running game early in his career and a conservative coach who put him on a leash, one could only imagine.
This is a legit statement.

http://broncosstats.tripod.com/playe...lwayStats.html

It breaks down what Elway did under each coach, and their system. Overall average per season under each coach

Reeves: comp % was 54.4/yard avg 3021.6/avg gain 7.0/td's 15.8/ints 15.7 rating 72.9/sacked 33.1

Wade Phillips:(running the west coast offense)
comp % was 62.7/yards 3760.0/avg 7.2/20 td's/10 int's/rating 89.3/sacked 42.5

Shanny: comp % 58.7/yards 3434.8/7.4/25.3 td's/12.3 int/rating 89/sacked 25.

So one can imagin, if Elway had better talent throughout his career like a Montana or Manning along with more freedom of the offense (like his ladder years) he not only would have significantly better numbers than he put up, but he would also more than likely have more rings.

Last edited by elway=goat : 11-05-2010 at 11:42 AM.
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Old 11-05-2010, 11:48 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by elway=goat View Post
This is a legit statement.

http://broncosstats.tripod.com/playe...lwayStats.html

It breaks down what Elway did under each coach, and their system. Overall average per season under each coach

Reeves: comp % was 54.4/yard avg 3021.6/avg gain 7.0/td's 15.8/ints 15.7 rating 72.9/sacked 33.1

Wade Phillips:(running the west coast offense)
comp % was 62.7/yards 3760.0/avg 7.2/20 td's/10 int's/rating 89.3/sacked 42.5

Shanny: comp % 58.7/yards 3434.8/7.4/25.3 td's/12.3 int/rating 89/sacked 25.

So one can imagin, if Elway had better talent throughout his career like a Montana or Manning along with more freedom of the offense (like his ladder years) he not only would have significantly better numbers than he put up, but he would also more than likely have more rings.
I wonder to this day what Elway's(in his prime) numbers might have looked like were he both in the modern game and had legitimate offensive talent around him. He took some awful teams to the Super Bowl that had no business of being in the playoffs. How many other QB's can say that?
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Old 11-05-2010, 12:31 PM    (permalink
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As a SKins fan, I can say with almost near certainty that Elway led some piss poor Broncos teams to the SB practically by himself.
A superstar who was surrounded with mediocre talent on offense for most of his career, until the arrival of Shanahan.
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Old 11-05-2010, 01:32 PM    (permalink
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I wouldn't say the least talent, because he used to have far better than Brady. But that was always the argument for Brady. And these last few years Manning is starting to have the same success as always with minimal talent.
Reggie Wayne and Dallas Clark = minimal Talent?
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Old 11-05-2010, 01:50 PM    (permalink
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Reggie Wayne and Dallas Clark = minimal Talent?
No. But the line isn't even as close to as good as it used to be. The defense is bad unless it plays with a lead which Peyton nearly always provides for them. Wayne is great but I'm a believer that Clark isn't special at all. He's only good because of Peyton, and he doesn't even have him for the rest of the year.
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Old 11-05-2010, 02:11 PM    (permalink
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No. But the line isn't even as close to as good as it used to be. The defense is bad unless it plays with a lead which Peyton nearly always provides for them. Wayne is great but I'm a believer that Clark isn't special at all. He's only good because of Peyton, and he doesn't even have him for the rest of the year.
What? The guy was a first round pick, and has been productive at every level he has played on. Keep spinning...

Wayne and Clark are both top 5 at their respective positions. So you sir are wrong.
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Old 11-05-2010, 02:25 PM    (permalink
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What? The guy was a first round pick, and has been productive at every level he has played on. Keep spinning...

Wayne and Clark are both top 5 at their respective positions. So you sir are wrong.
Clark doesn't really have a position. He's a slot receiver. Peyton lines him up in the right spot to get him open. Yeah Clark is top 5 at his respetive position, but thats because of Peyton. If he played on the Falcons or Titans, he isn't top 5. The production level from Clark to Tamme won't be that significant of a drop.
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Old 11-05-2010, 02:31 PM    (permalink
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No. But the line isn't even as close to as good as it used to be. The defense is bad unless it plays with a lead which Peyton nearly always provides for them. Wayne is great but I'm a believer that Clark isn't special at all. He's only good because of Peyton, and he doesn't even have him for the rest of the year.
Their Defense is built that way and besides that horrible D carried Peyton to a Championship. How many first rounders have been spent on Defense and how many on offense? If Peyton makes all his offense skill players elite why do they keep drafting 1st round WRs and RBs.
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Old 11-05-2010, 02:38 PM    (permalink
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Their Defense is built that way and besides that horrible D carried Peyton to a Championship. How many first rounders have been spent on Defense and how many on offense? If Peyton makes all his offense skill players elite why do they keep drafting 1st round WRs and RBs.
That's a good question. They shouldn't be drafting average RBs in the first round. It's a waste. They should be drafting O-line and defense. Again, Peyton basically calls his old own offense at the line. He gets his RBs favorable matchups. The Colts ran all over my team the Giants. And it wasn't because they have a great rushing attack or are overly physical. Peyton was just making all the right calls at the line.
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Old 11-05-2010, 02:55 PM    (permalink
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The Colts defense ranked 32nd against the run in their Super Bowl season. 173 yds per game and 5.3 yds per carry (which also ranked dead last)? The 28th to 31st ranked team gave up 140.9, 142.1, 144.6 and 145.4 yds per game that year. We won't realise just how great Manning was until he's retired. Like Ray Lewis said in his Manning intro, the Colts are a below average team if you remove him from the roster.

Harrison retired and the offense didn't miss a beat. The running game is very ordinary - 1st rd picks on Addai and Brown, yet neither is anything to write home about. Gonzalez gets hurt last year and the likes of Pierre Garcon from Mount Union step in seemlessly. A 4th rd rookie Austin Collie instantly plays like a 4th year veteran.

I think we would all agree that Larry Fitzgerald is an elite WR but without an elite QB throwing him the ball he's not having a particular Larry-like impact this season. Yes, Wayne and Clark are really good and were drafted in the 1st rd but with a mediocre QB their numbers would take a big hit just like Fitzgerald.
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Old 11-05-2010, 02:57 PM    (permalink
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The Colts defense ranked 32nd against the run in their Super Bowl season. 173 yds per game and 5.3 yds per carry (which also ranked dead last)? The 28th to 31st ranked team gave up 140.9, 142.1, 144.6 and 145.4 yds per game that year. We won't realise just how great Manning was until he's retired. Like Ray Lewis said in his Manning intro, the Colts are a below average team if you remove him from the roster.
Who gives a **** about what their defense did in the regular season. Go look at what they did in the playoffs on the way to the Super Bowl.
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Old 11-05-2010, 03:00 PM    (permalink
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The voters have a tough job though. How can we honestly and accurately compare a 30s QB (Baugh) to a 60s LB (Butkus) to an 80s LT (Munoz)? I think the best that can be done is to say Player A should a be a top 10 guy, or Player B should be in the 10-20 range.

Personally the best 5 players I have ever seen in my 25 years of watching the NFL are as follows: (in no order)

Jerry Rice
Joe Montana
Barry Sanders
Lawrence Taylor
Reggie White
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Old 11-05-2010, 03:17 PM    (permalink
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My Issues with the list-
Barry Sanders should have been higher than Walter Peyton

Jim Thorpe should have been in the top 15 (the father of football is ranked in the 30's? plz)

Deion Sanders is wayyyy low

Warren Sapp > Randy White
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Old 11-05-2010, 03:24 PM    (permalink
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I'm glad LT got the recognition he deserved. The homer in me wanted him at #1, but I knew that was unrealistic. Being #3 was deserving, and to give a defender that kind of love speaks volumes of how good he really was.

I want to share some LT stories with you guys since I followed his career religiously, and have tapes of Giants games from the 80s.

We all know LT changed the game, but I don't know if everyone here realizes to what extend and how much he impacted the game. LT made the iform offense obsolete, he single handedly created the 2TE offense. Joe Gibbs created his offense to specifically stop LT, and it turns out that it stopped everyone but LT.

The angle stance of the Left Tackle was first used to stop LT. Didn't work of course. LT is responsible for the modern 3-4 defense. He's responsible for hte modern pass protections you see today.

The greatest game I ever saw a defender have was in 1990, when the Giants lost to the 49ers 7-3 in the regular season. In this game, Lawrence Taylor did things that I did not know were possible.

When Jerry Rice (the goat according to this list) lined up in the slot, LT went over him. Now the Giants in most occasions against this formation, would overload the other side with blitzers, and have LT press Rice and cover him.

It was a brilliant strategy, force Montana to roll towards LT, where he would expect LT to press and rush. But then catch them off guard by having LT actually cover Rice.

Now one would expect that Jerry Rice, being Jerry Rice would toast LT and Montana would be able to exploit this matchup with quick strikes down the field right?

Wrong. LT shut him down everytime they called that play. He ran with him step for step. Lawrence Taylor, a 6 4 250 linebacker, blanketed Jerry Rice.

I never seen anything like it since and probably never will.

Speaking of the 49ers, Bill Walsh had a unique strategy to blocking LT. He would have his left tackle play inside to defend the bullrush, and he would kick his LG out to pick up the speed rush in case LT just blew past the left tackle.

In this protection, the playcall was a quick pass, where the RB dives and takes the knees out of the RE while both LT and LG pick up Taylor with a TE brushing and going.

It didn't work, but it did a great job of limiting LT. It slowed him down. Then the Giants countered this by blitzing the WILB along with Taylor, so once the Guard shot outside, the huge hole inside allowed the WILB to come unblocked and sack the qb.

Thus, the invention of the weakside blitz us Madden junkies see in all 3-4 defenses.

I can go on and on. To fully describe how much LT changed the game, and talk about all the ridiculous plays he made would take an eternity.

I'll finish my post by saying this: Lawrence Taylor was the greatest defender I have ever seen. We never saw anyone like him, and I don't think we ever will.

We always talk about franchise quarterbacks. Lawrence Taylor was a franchise linebacker. He was the only defensive player I've ever seen that impacted the game to the same degree that a HOF franchise qb did.

The greatest.
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Old 11-05-2010, 03:36 PM    (permalink
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Clark doesn't really have a position. He's a slot receiver. Peyton lines him up in the right spot to get him open. Yeah Clark is top 5 at his respetive position, but thats because of Peyton. If he played on the Falcons or Titans, he isn't top 5. The production level from Clark to Tamme won't be that significant of a drop.
Yeah well that's because Tamme is a machine dude. He's legit one of the best TEs in the NFL, he's just been behind Clark this whole time.

Real talk.
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Old 11-05-2010, 04:07 PM    (permalink
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Changed it to what?
He changed it so that people now think that throwing six touchdowns in some mid-October game against the Lions or Bills means more than performing when it matters. Truly a pioneer. He's also blazed a trail for future QBs by showing different ways to choke when the chips are down. Again, a real pioneer.
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Old 11-05-2010, 05:10 PM    (permalink
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What? The guy was a first round pick, and has been productive at every level he has played on. Keep spinning...

Wayne and Clark are both top 5 at their respective positions. So you sir are wrong.
Peyton Manning is so overrated. All of the talent around him makes him look good. Example: Jacob Tamme carrying Manning past the Texans. Tamme is a stud. Top 5 at his position for sure.
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Old 11-05-2010, 06:15 PM    (permalink
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It begins. 10 players per episode. Here is the list thus far.

100. Joe Namath
99. Michael Strahan.
98. Lee Roy Selmon.
97. Derrick Brooks.
96. Mel Hein.
95. Larry Allen.
94. Lenny Moore.
93. Sam Huff.
92. Michael Irvin.
91. Fran Tarkenton.

90. Kurt Warner
89. Ernie Nevers
88. Ed Reed
87. Elroy Hirsch
86. Willie Davis
85. Marcus Allen
84. Joe Schmidt
83. Norm Van Brocklin
82. Ted Hendricks
81. Steve Young

80. Troy Aikman
79. Emlen Tunnell
78. Bruce Matthews
77. Tony Dorsett
76. Art Shell
75. Darrell Green
74. Marion Motley
73. Ozzie Newsome
72. Jonathon Ogden
71. Paul Warfield

70. Marshall Faulk
69. Bobby Bell
68. Mike Webster
67. Kellen Winslow
66. Willie Brown
65. Randy Moss
64. Herb Adderley
63. Jim Otto
62. Randy White
61. LaDainian Tomlinson

60. Jack Ham
59. Mike Ditka
58. Steve Van Buren
57. Mike Singletary
56. Gene Upshaw
55. Earl Campbell
54. Forrest Gregg
53. Willie Lanier
52. Eric Dickerson
51. Bart Starr

50. Terry Bradshaw
49. Mike Haynes
48. Red Grange
47. Ray Nitschke
46. Roger Staubach
45. Tony Gonzalez
44. Mel Blount
43. Alan Page
42. John Mackey
41. Rod Woodson

40. O.J. Simpson
39. Gino Marchetti
38. Lance Alworth
37. Jim Thorpe
36. Raymond Berry
35. Chuck Bednarik
34. Deion Sanders
33. Sid Luckman
32. Jim Parker
31. Bruce Smith

30. **** "Night Train" Lane.
29. Jack Lambert
28. Emmitt Smith
27. Merlin Olsen
26. Bob Lilly
25. Dan Marino
24. John Hannah
23. John Elway
22. Gale Sayers
21. Tom Brady

20. Brett Favre
19. Bronko Nagurski
18. Ray Lewis
17. Barry Sanders
16. Otto Graham
15. Deacon Jones
14. Sammy Baugh
13. Joe Greene
12. Anthony Munoz
11. Ronnie Lott
Where's the top ten to this original list?
Full list needs to be on the first post here so we don't have to chase each subsequent page to find the complete list for this thread.

Aikman and Young, one spot apart?
Vewwy interesting.
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Old 11-05-2010, 06:47 PM    (permalink
Complex
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The Colts defense ranked 32nd against the run in their Super Bowl season. 173 yds per game and 5.3 yds per carry (which also ranked dead last)? The 28th to 31st ranked team gave up 140.9, 142.1, 144.6 and 145.4 yds per game that year. We won't realise just how great Manning was until he's retired. Like Ray Lewis said in his Manning intro, the Colts are a below average team if you remove him from the roster.

Harrison retired and the offense didn't miss a beat. The running game is very ordinary - 1st rd picks on Addai and Brown, yet neither is anything to write home about. Gonzalez gets hurt last year and the likes of Pierre Garcon from Mount Union step in seemlessly. A 4th rd rookie Austin Collie instantly plays like a 4th year veteran.

I think we would all agree that Larry Fitzgerald is an elite WR but without an elite QB throwing him the ball he's not having a particular Larry-like impact this season. Yes, Wayne and Clark are really good and were drafted in the 1st rd but with a mediocre QB their numbers would take a big hit just like Fitzgerald.
Now tell how great Peyton Manning played in the playoffs that year and how terrible the Colts D. Regular season stats don't win championships ...
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Old 11-05-2010, 06:50 PM    (permalink
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Peyton Manning is so overrated. All of the talent around him makes him look good. Example: Jacob Tamme carrying Manning past the Texans. Tamme is a stud. Top 5 at his position for sure.
6 catches for 64 yards against the Texans who are the worst passing Defense. You got me, Peyton made Tamme look like Shannon Sharp out there.
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Old 11-05-2010, 09:22 PM    (permalink
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I think the whole "talent around the player" argument is getting blown out of proportion. If your a QB and your team isn't exceptionally talented or untalented, then it's really a non-issue. Every QB had talent around them at some point. And sure, we can do the whole chicken or the egg thing and ask if it's the talent that makes the QB look good or is the QB that makes the talent around him look good but it's impossible to figure out.

Peyton has had some first round picks in his "skill" positions, sure. But Young had Rice, Elway had TD and Sharpe, Roethlisberger had a really good defense and Brady had belichick, etc. etc. Everybody had something going in their favor.

For my money, I'll take Manning's intelligence over a lot of other QB's, but I wouldn't fault someone for liking Brady's nerves or Elway's athleticism (not to mention, both of those guys were extremely clever with the ball as well).
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Old 11-05-2010, 09:26 PM    (permalink
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September-January give me Peyton. After that he can **** off and I'll take Brady.
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Old 11-05-2010, 09:36 PM    (permalink
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Peyton Manning is so overrated. All of the talent around him makes him look good. Example: Jacob Tamme carrying Manning past the Texans. Tamme is a stud. Top 5 at his position for sure.
Whoda thought a 235 lb slot receiver from Kentucky could line up as a "tight end" and get open against linebackers?
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Old 11-05-2010, 09:40 PM    (permalink
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Peyton Manning is so overrated. All of the talent around him makes him look good. Example: Jacob Tamme carrying Manning past the Texans. Tamme is a stud. Top 5 at his position for sure.
Where did I say the talent makes him look good? Do I think Manning is overrated, yes. For the sopposed football god that he is, I have watched him crap the bed waaayy to much in the playoffs to annoint him the goat.

But do I think his talent makes him? No.. However, It is undeniable that he has had more to work with throughout his career via 1-3 round picks on offense than any of the other elite QB's of his generation and probably the 80's and 90's outside of Dallas and the 49ers.

Which is why I make the point, of all his fanboys who say players where were drafted in the first round to third round are only good because of Manning. Which is rediculous.
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Old 11-05-2010, 09:46 PM    (permalink
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Where did I say the talent makes him look good? Do I think Manning is overrated, yes. For the sopposed football god that he is, I have watched him crap the bed waaayy to much in the playoffs to annoint him the goat.

But do I think his talent makes him? No.. However, It is undeniable that he has had more to work with throughout his career via 1-3 round picks on offense than any of the other elite QB's of his generation and probably the 80's and 90's outside of Dallas and the 49ers.

Which is why I make the point, of all his fanboys who say players where were drafted in the first round to third round are only good because of Manning. Which is rediculous.
Using 1-3 round picks as an argument for having great offensive players is ********, unless you think the Lions had one of the most unstoppable offenses of all time.

Harrington
Rogers
Mike Williams
Roy Williams
Kevin Jones.

STUDLY AS ****
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