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Old 10-22-2010, 12:22 PM    (permalink
yourfavestoner
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Originally Posted by Monomach View Post
In this thread, we pretend that when a team loses in the playoffs, it's the quarterback's fault.

So basically, Dan Marino is a piece of under-.500 garbage.
Does anybody really rate Marino over Montana or Elway? Why or why not? He's a better passer in almost every conceivable category.

FWIW, Montana was considered a game manager earlier in his career and blossomed statistically later. Sounds awfully familiar to me.
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Old 10-22-2010, 12:54 PM    (permalink
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Does anybody really rate Marino over Montana or Elway? Why or why not? He's a better passer in almost every conceivable category.

FWIW, Montana was considered a game manager earlier in his career and blossomed statistically later. Sounds awfully familiar to me.
When it comes to QBs like Marino and i'm throwing Manning in there too, my question is this. You have absolutely killed the opposition throughout the regular season. Regardless of any other thing, weapons, defense, offensive line, playcalling etc, why could you do it in the regular season but struggle in the postseason?

The Colts are the best regular season team of the last decade but came away with one Superbowl. Marino killed all in his path in the 80s but didn't win a Superbowl. Something has to be said for being clutch. I can't remember who said it in another thread but Adam Vinatieri is 70% in his Superbowl career on field goals. But he was clutch at the right moments. Those moments are what seperate the good from the great.
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Old 10-22-2010, 01:14 PM    (permalink
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Personally, I think Marino had garbage to work with... the Marks brothers were ok, but overrated and who else did he have besides them?

Never had a running game, his receivers were average at best, and he put up all of those ridiculous numbers before the rule changes.

I've got him in the best 5 QBs of all time.
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Old 10-22-2010, 01:16 PM    (permalink
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I don't particularly like this list so far.

All I'm saying is LT better be in the top 5.
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Old 10-22-2010, 02:06 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by wonderbredd24 View Post
Personally, I think Marino had garbage to work with... the Marks brothers were ok, but overrated and who else did he have besides them?

Never had a running game, his receivers were average at best, and he put up all of those ridiculous numbers before the rule changes.

I've got him in the best 5 QBs of all time.
Agreed. I don't see how he can't be anyone's top 5.
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Old 10-22-2010, 02:12 PM    (permalink
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The term "clutch" is flawed.

When you have a sample set of one game to decide if a player is "clutch," you can't decide anything.

From a statistic stand point, there is a perfect argument that Tom Brady is one of the least clutch QBs of all time. Playing in four games and winning three can be 100% luck or 100% talent. Technically speaking, if he were an absolute C average QB, winning 3/4 isn't that unlikely.

Even if a player is actually absolutely clutch, missing one attempt blows the image. If the most clutch player misses his 1 of 500 attempts while the camera is on, he's 0/1 in the spotlight. Same thing in reverse.
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Old 10-22-2010, 02:15 PM    (permalink
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The Dolphins defense and running game held back the Dolphins during the Marino era. Troy Stradford, Sammie Smith, Lorenzo Hampton, Karim-Abdul-Jabbar, Mark Higgs, Bernie Parmalee, JJ Johnson, Woody Bennett, Tony Nathan and Andra Franklin all led the Dolphins in rushing during the Marino era. That's 10 RBs and only one (Abdul-Jabbar) ever cracked 1,000 yds in a Dolphins uniform.

From 1984 (Marino's 1st full yr as starter) Miami were ranked in the Top 8 offenses 11 times in the next 12 years. In those same 12 seasons Miami's best rankings on defense was 7th and 10th. The other 10 seasons the Dolphins were ranked in the bottom half of the NFL, including the bottom six 6 times in 7 seasons (85-91).

Their defensive ranking from 1984-94 in a 28 team NFL were as follows:
19th, 23rd, 26th, 26th, 26th, 24th, 7th, 25th, 10th, 20th, 19th.

From 1995-97 in a 30 team NFL the Dolphins D was 16th, 17th and 26th. Miami's Defenses did improve to 3rd and 5th for Dan's last two seasons but it was too little too late. They won their wild card games both years but were then crushed by Denver and Jacksonville in the playoffs 38-3 and 62-7.

Marino's career without a decent RB or Top defense was like Barry Sanders lacking a top D and a decent QB.
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Old 10-22-2010, 09:08 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by wonderbredd24 View Post
Personally, I think Marino had garbage to work with... the Marks brothers were ok, but overrated and who else did he have besides them?

Never had a running game, his receivers were average at best, and he put up all of those ridiculous numbers before the rule changes.

I've got him in the best 5 QBs of all time.
I know comparing him and manning is dumb, If Marino had these rules and the colts WRs and EJ, he would of won a superbowl or 2.
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Old 10-22-2010, 09:20 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by AntoinCD View Post
Manning:
18 games (9-9)
435-692
62.9%
5,164 yds
28 TDs
19 INTs
7.46 ypa
87.6 QB rating
1-1 Super Bowl record (1 MVP)


Brady:
18 games (14-4)
395-637
62.0%
4,108 yds
28 TDs
15 INTs
6.45 ypa
85.5 QB rating
3-1 Super Bowl record (2 MVP)

How do you work out that Manning plays better in the postseason than Brady?

It must be the extra .9% completion percentage. It bears no relevance of who he was throwing to all those years or that Brady only had elite weapons for two years in the postseason(4 games). Oh, or it must be the passer rating which is definitely the best way to determine how well a QB plays and is a massive 2.1 points above Brady. Or wait I know it must be all the TDs he's thrown more of than Brady...oh wait, or the fact he's thrown less INTs...oh wait, or it must be he has a better playoff record than Brady...oh wait, or at least he's won more Superbowls than Brady...oh wait, or that he's won more Superbowl MVP awards than Brady...oh wait.

OK you got me. Im stumped, Ive gotta ask. How the hell is Manning better than Brady in the postseason?
If you don't count Peyton wins/stats against broncos and chiefs, his stats are below average.
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Old 10-22-2010, 09:23 PM    (permalink
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There is more to a player than winning. Is Charles Haley the best playoff player of all time? Other things come into it. There are reasons that Tom Brady has lost only 4 times and Peyton Manning has lost 9 times and not all of those reasons have anything to do with either Tom Brady or Peyton Manning.
Qb's get the most credit for superbowl wins look at Peyton only superbowl win, he played average at best and was MVP not to mention he played like garbage during their run(in the playoffs). If Charles Haley was QB, he would be a first valot HOF because of his 5 SB wins(He should be in the HOF right now but the media hates him).
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Old 10-22-2010, 11:32 PM    (permalink
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There is more to a player than winning. Is Charles Haley the best playoff player of all time? Other things come into it. There are reasons that Tom Brady has lost only 4 times and Peyton Manning has lost 9 times and not all of those reasons have anything to do with either Tom Brady or Peyton Manning.
How many complete meltdowns did Manning have though? We're talking about the best of all time here. Manning shouldn't be excused from his playoff blunders.
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Old 10-22-2010, 11:34 PM    (permalink
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In this thread, we pretend that when a team loses in the playoffs, it's the quarterback's fault.

So basically, Dan Marino is a piece of under-.500 garbage.
Well the quarterback also gets the glory when the team wins it all in the playoffs a lot of the time. It goes hand and hand.
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Oh, my bad. Didn't realize SWDC was the pinnacle of class and grace.
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Old 10-23-2010, 12:27 AM    (permalink
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Cris Carter!!!!!!!!
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Old 10-23-2010, 01:38 AM    (permalink
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Cris Carter!!!!!!!!
Looks like he's not going to be on the list. Along with others like Warren Moon and Warren Sapp. Not having Carter is a crime though. Namath makes the list, but Carter doesn't. Hmm...
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Oh, my bad. Didn't realize SWDC was the pinnacle of class and grace.
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Old 10-23-2010, 02:09 AM    (permalink
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Looks like he's not going to be on the list. Along with others like Warren Moon and Warren Sapp. Not having Carter is a crime though. Namath makes the list, but Carter doesn't. Hmm...

Steve Largent should be there too. He retired #1 all-time for receptions, yards and TD catches and was also a 1st ballot HOFer. Largent was the 1st receiver to 100 TD catches breaking Don Hutson's record which had stood for 50 years. I'd definitely have him there over Crazy Legs Hirsch.

Larry Wilson and Ken Houston were the safetys on the 75th Anniversary All-Time team. How did they not make the Top 100?

Sapp was a guy who I thought would make the Top 100 but its not a massive snub. Warren Moon is outside The Top 100 imo. If Buffalo had won just one of their 4 Super Bowl apperances (Norwood's miss in SB 25 being the obvbious one) I think Jim Kelly would be there.
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Old 10-23-2010, 02:21 AM    (permalink
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Yes Steve Largent should be there as well. Ken Houston too. Yet Ed Reed makes it over Houston.
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Oh, my bad. Didn't realize SWDC was the pinnacle of class and grace.
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Old 10-23-2010, 03:19 AM    (permalink
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did Warner make the list?

Ed Reed is very arguably the greatest FS ever
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Old 10-23-2010, 03:40 AM    (permalink
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did Warner make the list?

Ed Reed is very arguably the greatest FS ever
Kurt Warner made the list.
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Old 10-23-2010, 06:34 AM    (permalink
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Looks like he's not going to be on the list. Along with others like Warren Moon and Warren Sapp. Not having Carter is a crime though. Namath makes the list, but Carter doesn't. Hmm...
WOW carter was just stupid good! I would have carter over irvin no question.
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Old 10-23-2010, 10:27 AM    (permalink
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It's not the bottom 100 players, Thumper.
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Old 10-23-2010, 10:51 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Seamus2602 View Post
2001-2003 Damien Woody
2003-Now Dan Koppen

Both Pro Bowlers

Brady has always had Matt Light, also a Pro Bowler.

What I meant is that half of the time Brady is in the Playoffs he has had a person on his line who was in the Pro Bowl that year.

There are 10 Quarterbacks in NFL history with more Superbowl wins than Peyton Manning. Anyone going to claim that they are all better than him? Superbowl victories are a key statistic but they are not the only key statistic.
I guess it depends on what game it is, week 6 in the regular season, im probably taking Manning. 1 playoff game to win? Im probably not taking Manning. Im not sure if he makes my top 10.

For as great as Manning is, he shits the bed in the playoffs far to much compared to other hall of fame qb's for me to have confidence in him to get 1 game won. Its not even he plays bad through out the game, it just seems in big games, especially in the 3rd or 4th quarter through out his career he shits the bed.

He is the Wilt Chamberlain of the NFL. Yeah, you can make the case that he is worlds apart of everyone else especially when you look at his regular season work. Then, in the playoffs especially if he has to play outside in the cold or moderate wheather he just turns into something else.

So no, if he does make my top 10, he is toward the bottom for a game that matters. He would probably move up slightly if its indoors. But he probably falls out of my top 10, if its outdoors and probably out of the top 12-15 if its cold outdoors.

Take a look at all the first round picks the Colts picks around Manning throughout his career. I would say 80%+ of the first round picks were offensive players, so please dont act as if Manning turns all these scrubs into allpros. Manning has had elite offensive talent his entire career. You can make the case he has played with 5 hall of famers on offense. Not counting the year he had with Marshal Faulk.

Brady has 1, Moss and he had him for what like 2.3 years or something. Brady was the real player making scrubs look decent TBH. The year they beat Carolina they had one of the worst running games for a team ever to win a Super Bowl statistically. No all pro WR.

In terms of the top 100...

The list is a Joke. I personally believe Elway is one of the few that put teams on his back. A couple of those SB teams that went, didnt even have thousand yard rushers or recievers. To put Brady ahead of his is surprising and sad at the same time.

I cant believe Sayers finished ahead of him either. Wow.

Manning being ahead of all of them is kinda a joke to me. Maybe for the regular season, and indoors. WOW!

Chris Carter being ahead of Elway is a joke as well. WOW. Whatever, this list kinda sucked from the start. Now it really sucks.

Last edited by elway=goat : 10-23-2010 at 11:00 AM.
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Old 10-23-2010, 02:27 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by elway=goat View Post
In terms of the top 100...

The list is a Joke. I personally believe Elway is one of the few that put teams on his back. A couple of those SB teams that went, didnt even have thousand yard rushers or recievers. To put Brady ahead of his is surprising and sad at the same time.

I cant believe Sayers finished ahead of him either. Wow.

Manning being ahead of all of them is kinda a joke to me. Maybe for the regular season, and indoors. WOW!

Chris Carter being ahead of Elway is a joke as well. WOW. Whatever, this list kinda sucked from the start. Now it really sucks.

Cris Carter is not making the Top 20 so he won't be ahead of Elway. The only WRs left will be Rice and Hutson.
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Old 10-23-2010, 02:32 PM    (permalink
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In Manning's defence the Colts were 3-13 and their offense ranked 20th out of 30 teams the year before he was drafted. Marshall Faulk was a 4th year vet with 1,500 yds from scrimmage and 8 TDs that season. Marvin Harrison didn't turn into Marvin Harrison until his 4th season and Manning's 2nd season.

Harrison in his first two seasons went:
64-836-8
73-866-6

Season 3 with Manning as a rookie:
59-776-7 (in 12 games)

Seasons 4-7
115-1663-12
102-1413-14
109-1524-15
143-1722-11

How much of that improvement was down to Harrison and how much to having Manning take a big leap from his 2nd season onwards?

Even Faulk saw a big jump in his numbers in the one season he had with Manning - which was his 5th in the NFL.

Rushing:
1,282-11 (4.1ypc)
1,078-11 (3.7ypc)
587-11 (3.0 ypc) - 13 games
1,054-7 (4.0 ypc)
1,319-6- Manning's rookie year

Receiving
52-522-1
56-475-3
56-428-0
47-471-1
86-908-4 - Manning's rookie year
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Old 10-23-2010, 03:10 PM    (permalink
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I know comparing him and manning is dumb, If Marino had these rules and the colts WRs and EJ, he would of won a superbowl or 2.
If you're going to make up some stupid arbitrary number of super bowl wins, why stop at 2? Why not say 15 while you're at it. It's a two way street with WR and a QB. You're acting like the wide receivers made Manning what he is today. Also when did draft position play any role with how great a player is going to become. If that were the case, the raiders would be a playoff team by now with how high they're constantly picking in the draft. Manning does play a role in how productive his wide receivers are. There is no way Collie would become half as productive as he is if he were on the Raiders. Manning played a role in his development and helped him tap into his potential.

With the playoffs, unless Marino has at least a decent defense, he's not getting far in the playoffs. It's not just because the competition is tougher is in the playoffs, it's the weather also. As much as you want to believe that it's easy to chuck a football around, the rain and snow makes it harder.

I really don't understand why people can't understand they're seeing one of the greatest football players ever right now in Manning. It's the same thing with Barry Bonds. Such a high level of consistent excellence and people just don't appreciate what they're seeing.
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Old 10-23-2010, 04:55 PM    (permalink
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Brady over Elway is debatable.
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