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Old 09-07-2010, 02:48 PM    (permalink
MetSox17
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Originally Posted by P-L View Post
I don't really feel like debating with a Texas fan, but Bush received the second most first place votes in the award's history and received ten times more first place votes than Vince Young. If not for the amazingly ridiculous Rose Bowl performance by Young, this wouldn't even be debated today.
The same situation happened with Reggie Bush and the Fresno State game. Everyone rode his dick to the heisman after that game against a garbage Fresno St team. Most of those "yards" were on punt or kick returns anyway.

Go look at Vince Young in 05, @ Ohio St, beating Oklahoma by a record margin, 500+ yards of offense vs Okie St, Big 12 championship v Buffalo winning by a 67 point margin.
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Old 09-07-2010, 02:49 PM    (permalink
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People act like Bush rushed for 2500 yards and 40 TDs that Heisman season.

Bush was the most exciting player in college football, no doubt, but was he 'the best'??

As Heisman winners go, stat wise, he had an average season in '05.
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Old 09-07-2010, 02:49 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by *** Ork Wang View Post
can someone tell me what happened? i thought he took like some money from companys, how is that changing what he did on the field?
It's not changing what he did on the field, but invalidating it. They've erased those USC seasons from the record books, and they've asked them to forfeit revenues they gained from bowl games.
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Old 09-07-2010, 03:01 PM    (permalink
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I don't think anyone is going to argue that Vince Young had anything short of an amazing season. It's simply that Bush had one of those "man among boy" seasons. There wasn't a single game in the season that he didn't look like a college star playing against high schoolers and there were several games where he looked like a hall-of-fame NFLer against high schoolers. He averaged over 8.5 yards a carry and over 12 yards per reception. There's a reason (almost) everyone was drooling over him as the #1 pick.
Vince was the first 3000 / 1000 QB. Reggie was not the first anything. ESPN had to popularize a statistic to help push their candidate, "total yards."

Reggie was a great player, Vince was otherworldly in 2005.

Oh.... Reggie had 500+ yds against Fresno State.... Vince had 500+ versus Oklahoma State. Vince beat Ohio State, Reggie beat nobody of note. Reggie had Lindale White, Matt Lienart, and one of their big slow awesome college receivers, I forget which. Vince had a lot of talent around him but none on that offense were as good as those 3 above. Vince didn't play in the fourth quarter in almost all the games, Vince didn't play through the 3rd quarter in most games. Texas' closest game, outside of the MNC was Ohio State, and then Texas A&M at 11 points. Texas destroyed everyone that year. They averaged over 50 pts a game, they averaged more than USC. Vince didn't need a "Bush Push" to beat anybody. He needed a late touchdown pass that he threw.

Yes, I think most of the voters are stupid when it comes to the Heisman. It is a flavor of the month, whomever gets the most air time on ESPN award. The award is not for the best player in football, it is for the best offensive player on the most publicized team.
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Old 09-07-2010, 03:05 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by FUNBUNCHER View Post
People act like Bush rushed for 2500 yards and 40 TDs that Heisman season.

Bush was the most exciting player in college football, no doubt, but was he 'the best'??

As Heisman winners go, stat wise, he had an average season in '06.
How many 1500+ yard rushing seasons with over 8.5 a carry are there in major College football? One.

Considering he was also the best returnman that year and did damage as a receiver, also, it's rather impressive. And Vince Young only got 3k/1k AFTER the BCS game. Thusly, it doesn't even count for Heisman voting, just further evidence people are tainted by that epic Rose Bowl.
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Old 09-07-2010, 03:10 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by MetSox17 View Post
Most of those "yards" were on punt or kick returns anyway.
You're better than this.

23 carries, 294 yards, 2 TD
3 receptions, 68 yards
135 KR yards
16 PR yards

58.4 percent of his yards came on either rushes or catches.
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Old 09-07-2010, 03:12 PM    (permalink
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You're better than this.

23 carries, 294 yards, 2 TD
3 receptions, 68 yards
135 KR yards
16 PR yards

58.4 percent of his yards came on either rushes or catches.
41.6% of your "total yards" being from ST is a whole lot when you're constantly hearing "ZOMGZ 500 total yardzzz!!!11"

Vince Young actually had a game where he had 500 yards of offense in the regular season. Against a team that actually had a pulse.
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Old 09-07-2010, 03:12 PM    (permalink
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How many 1500+ yard rushing seasons with over 8.5 a carry are there in major College football? One.
How many people have had a 3000/1000 season while being #3 in pass efficiency. While playing a better schedule than Bush did.
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Old 09-07-2010, 03:19 PM    (permalink
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How many people have had a 3000/1000 season while being #3 in pass efficiency. While playing a better schedule than Bush did.
How many QBs have had better stats than 3000 passing yards and 26/10? How about that year alone? And Vince Young didn't have a 3000/1000 when voters voted. Bush DID have 1500+ and a 8.5 average. Seriously guys, THE VOTING IS BEFORE THE ROSE BOWL. 3000/1000 IS NOT A VALID ARGUMENT, HE DIDN'T HAVE A 3000/1000 WHEN THEY VOTED AND BASED ON HIS YARDS PER GAME IT DIDN'T LOOK LIKE HE'D GET IT.

And if Texas' schedule was more difficult, it wasn't by much. Both teams played pretty powdery soft schedules.

Regardless, we've gotten away from the topic at hand. Should Vince Young be awarded the Heisman or should it stay empty? I feel Young should be awarded it, he obviously would have if Bush hadn't been there.
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Old 09-07-2010, 03:22 PM    (permalink
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Know what VY and Reggie Bush have in common??

NEITHER is a Heisman trophy winner!!lol
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Old 09-07-2010, 03:34 PM    (permalink
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41.6% of your "total yards" being from ST is a whole lot when you're constantly hearing "ZOMGZ 500 total yardzzz!!!11"
Considering it annihilated the previous record, it doesn't really matter.

Quote:
Vince Young actually had a game where he had 500 yards of offense in the regular season. Against a team that actually had a pulse.
Wait, so a QB had more yards in a game than a RB did? That never happens. Like, ever ever.
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Old 09-07-2010, 03:38 PM    (permalink
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Wait, so a QB had more yards in a game than a RB did? That never happens. Like, ever ever.
Not when the QB almost has as much rushing yards as that RB that was teh greatest evar against the cupcake fresno st team.
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Old 09-07-2010, 03:43 PM    (permalink
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Not when the QB almost has as much rushing yards as that RB that was teh greatest evar against the cupcake fresno st team.
Vince Young's touches- 30 passes, 21 carries (51 touches) 9.9 yards per touch
Reggie Bush's touches- 23 carries, three receptions, one punt return, seven kickoff returns (34 touches) 15 yards per touch

Yep, totally the same thing. You're blasting Bush for doing it against an 8-5 Fresno State team, but praising Young to high heavens for doing it against a powerhouse 4-7 Okie State squad. Seriously?

Plus, you got the important trophy anyway.
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Old 09-07-2010, 03:57 PM    (permalink
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It's not changing what he did on the field, but invalidating it. They've erased those USC seasons from the record books, and they've asked them to forfeit revenues they gained from bowl games.
they invalidated them cause they took money? im not following college so idk whats going on
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Old 09-07-2010, 03:59 PM    (permalink
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How many QBs have had better stats than 3000 passing yards and 26/10? How about that year alone? And Vince Young didn't have a 3000/1000 when voters voted. Bush DID have 1500+ and a 8.5 average. Seriously guys, THE VOTING IS BEFORE THE ROSE BOWL. 3000/1000 IS NOT A VALID ARGUMENT, HE DIDN'T HAVE A 3000/1000 WHEN THEY VOTED AND BASED ON HIS YARDS PER GAME IT DIDN'T LOOK LIKE HE'D GET IT.

And if Texas' schedule was more difficult, it wasn't by much. Both teams played pretty powdery soft schedules.

Regardless, we've gotten away from the topic at hand. Should Vince Young be awarded the Heisman or should it stay empty? I feel Young should be awarded it, he obviously would have if Bush hadn't been there.
True about when the 3000/1000 was achieved. However, Vince accumulated those stats in roughly half a season, due to all the time he spent watching the second team play. Also I mentioned, that Bush had a Heisman winning QB, a very good #1 college wide receiver, another 1000 yard rusher, and a below average defense that made sure he had multiple opportunities to rack up stats. Would this even be a conversation if USC's defense hadn't given up 45 points or whatever to Fresno? Yes all that matters because you have to take each of their accomplishments in context.
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Old 09-07-2010, 04:04 PM    (permalink
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Vince Young's touches- 30 passes, 21 carries (51 touches) 9.9 yards per touch
Reggie Bush's touches- 23 carries, three receptions, one punt return, seven kickoff returns (34 touches) 15 yards per touch
What would the average per touch be if you took away his kickoff returns that game? Hell a 20 yd average on a kickoff return is mediocre, but it sure can boost your argument when it is presented as you did.

Just curious.
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Old 09-07-2010, 04:04 PM    (permalink
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Bush was the obvious Heisman winner that season. He was insane.
Young was a great player, but Bush looked like an out of this world, once in a generation, type of player....and in all honesty he was. He dominated like no other.
Now if you count the Rose Bowl, different story. But you dont.

I see no point taking away his Heisman. He deserved it. I know he violated NCAA rules, but those rules are ridiculous, out-dated, and countless players violate them. The NCAA is a joke. They're trying to protect the integrity of the Heisman by doing this I suppose, but I think it'd show more integrity by saying FU NCAA, Bush deserved it, your rules suck, and its 5 years after the fact anyway.
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Old 09-07-2010, 04:41 PM    (permalink
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I don't really feel like debating with a Texas fan, but Bush received the second most first place votes in the award's history and received ten times more first place votes than Vince Young. If not for the amazingly ridiculous Rose Bowl performance by Young, this wouldn't even be debated today.

Yeah but I feel Bush benefited from the enormous hype that USC got that year. I mean, ESPN hyped them as the greatest team EVER in college football, and Bush as the greatest college player ever or one of the top ones.

Bush was damn good, and whoever said he looked like a HOF amongst boys was dead on, but i just didnt (and still dont) think he carried his team like Young did. Both were deserving of it, i thought the gap in voting was a product of USC's hype.
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Old 09-07-2010, 04:48 PM    (permalink
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Jumped the gun, Heisman committee says no change.

http://network.yardbarker.com/nfl/ar...al se/3185614

"UPDATE: Heisman Trust President William Dockery released his own statement on the matter.
September 7, 2010

The status of the USC / Bush matter remains unchanged. Any reports to the contrary are inaccurate. Please refer to July 2010 statement below.

William J. Dockery

President , Heisman Trust

Re: Heisman Trophy – USC/Reggie Bush

“The Heisman Trophy Trust, is a 501(c)(3) charitable trust, which each year contributes significant monies to the underserved of our country.

The Trust will be considering the issues raised in the USC/Reggie Bush matter, and after reaching a decision will publish it, but due to the complex issues involved and the Trust’s desire to reach an appropriate decision, no definitive timetable has been established. Until the matter has been fully considered and a decision is reached, the Trust has no further comment.”

William J. Dockery
President
Heisman Trophy Trust"
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Old 09-07-2010, 04:57 PM    (permalink
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DeAngelo Williams deserved the Heisman that year anyway.
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Old 09-07-2010, 05:00 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Fico View Post
What would the average per touch be if you took away his kickoff returns that game? Hell a 20 yd average on a kickoff return is mediocre, but it sure can boost your argument when it is presented as you did.

Just curious.
Well, 513 yards -135 yards equals 378 yards. 34 touches - seven kickoff returns is 27 touches. Therefore, it's an even 14 yards per touch.
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Old 09-07-2010, 05:01 PM    (permalink
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Also I mentioned, that Bush had a Heisman winning QB, a very good #1 college wide receiver, another 1000 yard rusher, and a below average defense that made sure he had multiple opportunities to rack up stats.
Yeah, whereas Young played with a bunch of scrubs all season. That Longhorns team really had zero talent on it. We all know Texas is always scraping the bottom of the barrel to land talent.
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Old 09-07-2010, 05:19 PM    (permalink
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Yeah, whereas Young played with a bunch of scrubs all season. That Longhorns team really had zero talent on it. We all know Texas is always scraping the bottom of the barrel to land talent.
The majority of the talent on that Texas team was on the defensive side. Vince was throwing to Billy Pittman, Ramonce Taylor, a young Limas Sweed and i can't quite recall who else. USC had like four five star WRs, along with the rest of the team that was built on 5 star recruits.

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they invalidated them cause they took money? im not following college so idk whats going on
In CFB, if you take any money, or have anything to do with taking money or improper benefits, especially when dealing with pro agents, you're ineligible to play. Since they found that Reggie and his family had been receiving money (and a house apparently), they disqualified everything Reggie Bush and USC did that year.
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Old 09-07-2010, 05:24 PM    (permalink
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In CFB, if you take any money, or have anything to do with taking money or improper benefits, especially when dealing with pro agents, you're ineligible to play. Since they found that Reggie and his family had been receiving money (and a house apparently), they disqualified everything Reggie Bush and USC did that year.
not the Heisman.

lol, yet, but still. It's not like they're going to give it to Vince, this argument has been dead and buried too long. The voting was too overwhelming to seriously drag this through the mud again anyway.
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Old 09-07-2010, 05:25 PM    (permalink
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The majority of the talent on that Texas team was on the defensive side. Vince was throwing to Billy Pittman, Ramonce Taylor, a young Limas Sweed and i can't quite recall who else. USC had like four five star WRs, along with the rest of the team that was built on 5 star recruits.
Freshman RB Jamaal Charles ran for 878 yards and 11 TD that year on 7.38 yards per carry. Senior TE David Thomas had 50 catches for 613 yards and five touchdowns.
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