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Old 09-10-2010, 12:00 AM    (permalink
Xenos
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Originally Posted by Sportsfan486 View Post
This thread is ridiculous. Go get split screen and watch River's on half and Rodger's on half. It's not even close. You could argue Rivers has a better deep ball than Rodgers but he gets beat hands down on every other count. Rodgers has a crisper and faster release, more arm strength on short to medium throws, better pocket presence and mobility, better ability to read defenses, etc etc.

And this is only Rodgers third season starting. And last season, for half of it, he was on pace to get sacked a near record amount of times. And while some of it was his fault, the vast majority was just awful protection. AND if you look how quickly Rodgers has improved on the fault that caused some sacks (taking too long to get rid of the ball) it's pretty incredible. For the last half of the season and especially this preseason he's been incredibly fast getting rid of the ball.

And what's your argument? Rivers had, arguably, a better offense the last few years with a #1 WR that plays to his strengths, an amazing TE and a very good OLine (comparatively, at least.)
The first bolded part is debatable since it's hard to gauge quick releases. Needless to say for all the grief Rivers gets for his throwing motion, it's one of the fastest in the NFL because there's almost no wasted motion.

As for the other bolded parts, those are flat out wrong. Rivers has much better pocket presence and ability to read defenses. The only part of his oline that stay constant last year was his left tackle and left guard (who played below his pro bowl level). His line was in a constant flux the entire season with someone always getting injured. And yet he still had one of the lowest sack numbers because of his ability to make quick decisions, read defenses, and move in the pocket. He's like Brees and Peyton in that regards. Watch as he makes Dombroski (the UDFA left tackle filling in for McNeill) look very good. Similar to how Brees made Bushrod and Peyton with Charlie Johnson.

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Old 09-10-2010, 12:00 AM    (permalink
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You can't insult Aaron Rodgers. Not allowed in this thread.
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Old 09-10-2010, 12:13 AM    (permalink
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Oh I get it, the place where it's old. like at CB? Where the DPOY played?

1st overall run D, and a top 5 pass D. Mediocre.
*Internet sigh*...

1. Your DPOY shouldn't have won it. Just sayin.

2. He's 35 going on 36 anyway. Not many top D's built around 36 year old DBs, 1 young OLB, and a bunch of mediocre front 7 guys.

3. One year is not some trend. They also changed schemes last year so 1. they got the little boost from that that teams seem to get and 2. not many NFC North teams see a 3-4 all that often. When I find out wtf a Brad Jones is then maybe I'll think that I underrate that D, but for the most part I look at the guys on the roster and few intrigue me.

4. Even some of your fans admit the D wasn't even that good last year. Sure the stats look pretty, but numbers only tell so much for so long...especially in this sport.

If it helps, I really like BJ Raji.
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Old 09-10-2010, 12:40 AM    (permalink
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bitches must not know about p-rivs
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Old 09-10-2010, 12:55 AM    (permalink
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bitches must not know about Tom Brady
FYP... Still the best QB in the NFL and everyone forgets about him.

1. Brady
2. Manning
3. Brees
4a. Rodgers
4a. Rivers

in 3-5 years

1. Rodgers
2. Rivers
3. Ryan
4. Stafford
5. Bradford
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Old 09-10-2010, 02:29 AM    (permalink
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Rodgers is an elite QB, but not a top tier (aka Manning, Brees, maybe Brady) one who is oversold because of fantasy football

Ryan will never be elite. He's good but is pretty close to his ceiling barring some crazy transformation such as Brady's body coming out of college vs Brady now.

Rivers is elite and is basically all the Chargers have at this point but has a couple flaws that prevent him from entering the top tier.

bbd is only bringing up the playoffs because his QB is Eli, who is Ryan-level aside from one 4 game stretch that would be wholly forgotten if not for a special teams player making a HOF all-time catch

Just remember, Jake Delhomme was a great playoff QB until he remembered he was Jake Delhomme and threw 5 picks in one game

/thread
Are you really trying to insinuate that playoff performance is irrelevant?
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Old 09-10-2010, 03:04 AM    (permalink
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*Internet sigh*...

1. Your DPOY shouldn't have won it. Just sayin.

2. He's 35 going on 36 anyway. Not many top D's built around 36 year old DBs, 1 young OLB, and a bunch of mediocre front 7 guys.

3. One year is not some trend. They also changed schemes last year so 1. they got the little boost from that that teams seem to get and 2. not many NFC North teams see a 3-4 all that often. When I find out wtf a Brad Jones is then maybe I'll think that I underrate that D, but for the most part I look at the guys on the roster and few intrigue me.

4. Even some of your fans admit the D wasn't even that good last year. Sure the stats look pretty, but numbers only tell so much for so long...especially in this sport.

If it helps, I really like BJ Raji.

Uh, the Packers front 7 is excellent, and its why they were tops in run D. Pickett did an excellent job at NT last year, but we'll see how he does with the move to DE. Cullen Jenkins never seems to get his due, he is a beast and not only is great vs the run but is good at getting to the QB. Barnett/Matthews are very good LBers. Hawk is assignment sure, but nothing spectacular, and as you said, the jury is out on Brad Jones. I like the front 7 a lot, its the secondary that worries me, though
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Old 09-10-2010, 03:25 AM    (permalink
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bbd is only bringing up the playoffs because his QB is Eli, who is Ryan-level aside from one 4 game stretch that would be wholly forgotten if not for a special teams player making a HOF all-time catch
One thing that has always bothered me about that play is people's complete dismissal of Eli's part in it. No one ever talks about this guy escaping 3 people and buying time in order to make that throw, which was actually pretty damn accurate.
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Old 09-10-2010, 03:31 AM    (permalink
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Uh, the Packers front 7 is excellent, and its why they were tops in run D. Pickett did an excellent job at NT last year, but we'll see how he does with the move to DE. Cullen Jenkins never seems to get his due, he is a beast and not only is great vs the run but is good at getting to the QB. Barnett/Matthews are very good LBers. Hawk is assignment sure, but nothing spectacular, and as you said, the jury is out on Brad Jones. I like the front 7 a lot, its the secondary that worries me, though
Here is the thing though, right now the Packers are the biggest one year wonder defense in the NFL, they jumped from the 26th best run defense in the NFL in 2008 to the best in the NFL in 2009, can they do it again? Plus, Dom Capers doesn't exactly have a history of putting together great defenses. Who knows if that defense holds up the same way this season, especially when you figure the defensive line has two new starters, BJ Raji is the NT and like you said Pickett is sliding out to LDE. Plus the secondary is already down two starters and the defense is all banged up with injuries, Cullen Jenkins, Clay Matthews and Brad Jones are already nicked up while Desmond Bishop, Mike Neal, Brady Poppinga and Brandon Underwood all missed practice the past two days.

Oh and maybe since the Packers have Al Harris on PUP and Underwood missing practice all week the Eagles might get to see Jarrett Bush and all his glory!

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Old 09-10-2010, 04:21 AM    (permalink
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Here is the thing though, right now the Packers are the biggest one year wonder defense in the NFL, they jumped from the 26th best run defense in the NFL in 2008 to the best in the NFL in 2009, can they do it again? Plus, Dom Capers doesn't exactly have a history of putting together great defenses. Who knows if that defense holds up the same way this season, especially when you figure the defensive line has two new starters, BJ Raji is the NT and like you said Pickett is sliding out to LDE. Plus the secondary is already down two starters and the defense is all banged up with injuries, Cullen Jenkins, Clay Matthews and Brad Jones are already nicked up while Desmond Bishop, Mike Neal, Brady Poppinga and Brandon Underwood all missed practice the past two days.

Oh and maybe since the Packers have Al Harris on PUP and Underwood missing practice all week the Eagles might get to see Jarrett Bush and all his glory!
??? about the bolded part. It's been a trend that whenever Capers took over a D, they vastly improved immediately the year after. Schemes play a big role in this. Packers D has solid talent, they just had crappy coaching at the coordinator spot there with Vanilla Sanders. Capers can coach circles around Sanders, so the improvement wasn't a total surprise. I will say I didn't think they'd jump up that significantly, and obviously they still have a bit of work to do as they couldn't hack it vs elite offenses. At least, they couldn't get a big stop vs them when they needed it. Elite offenses are called that for a reason, they rarely get shut down, but rather a good D can slow them down, and make a big stop when needed. They couldn't do that, and will have to prove they can this year

Also, the Dline has 1 new full time starter, that's Raji. Pickett is just making a switch...but will rotate back at NT to spell Raji, as well.

Also, you are pointing out injuries but nothing is significant. The only major injury is Harris, obviously. All the other guys are just standard nicks that every team has where a few players will be limited during the week in practice, then suit up and play just fine on Sunday. Matthews has been going full participation all week and the coaches said he is 100%, same with Brad Jones and Jenkins. Underwood has actually practiced this week, but has been limited. He is questionable for sunday. I could go down through every team and list 5-6 guys who missed a practice or are limited this week with some nicks and bruises. It's the NFL

As far as seeing Jarret Bush on the field, I doubt that. He's the 5th DB on the depth chart. Well, you will see him, on ST
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Old 09-10-2010, 08:19 AM    (permalink
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bbd is only bringing up the playoffs because his QB is Eli, who is Ryan-level aside from one 4 game stretch that would be wholly forgotten if not for a special teams player making a HOF all-time catch
insert "u mad" pic here. Once Ryan throws for 4000+ yards, 28 TDs with no defense, running game or proven weapons. Now give him fractures to both feet preventing him from planting and stepping into his throws for weeks. Get real, Eli's a top 10 Qb right now who's always been one of the best late game/half QBs in the league with ridiculous toughness and durability.
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JPP is a better and more productive player than Brandon Graham
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Is Shaun Hill a top 10 QB? Definitely not. Is he a top 20 one? Almost certainly.
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Most misleading 10+ sack season EVER.
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Old 09-10-2010, 08:23 AM    (permalink
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One thing that has always bothered me about that play is people's complete dismissal of Eli's part in it. No one ever talks about this guy escaping 3 people and buying time in order to make that throw, which was actually pretty damn accurate.
He's peyton's little brother, makes that stupid face and will never put up league leading numbers because of the team he plays for. Eli's incredible play will always be under-rated by most people.
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JPP is a better and more productive player than Brandon Graham
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Is Shaun Hill a top 10 QB? Definitely not. Is he a top 20 one? Almost certainly.
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Most misleading 10+ sack season EVER.
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Old 09-10-2010, 09:23 AM    (permalink
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*Internet sigh*...

1. Your DPOY shouldn't have won it. Just sayin.

2. He's 35 going on 36 anyway. Not many top D's built around 36 year old DBs, 1 young OLB, and a bunch of mediocre front 7 guys.

3. One year is not some trend. They also changed schemes last year so 1. they got the little boost from that that teams seem to get and 2. not many NFC North teams see a 3-4 all that often. When I find out wtf a Brad Jones is then maybe I'll think that I underrate that D, but for the most part I look at the guys on the roster and few intrigue me.

4. Even some of your fans admit the D wasn't even that good last year. Sure the stats look pretty, but numbers only tell so much for so long...especially in this sport.

If it helps, I really like BJ Raji.
How is this even remotely considered a rebuttal????????
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On another note, Nicklas Backstrom is amazingly good.
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Meanwhile, in hockey the other night, the Washington Capitals' Eric Belanger gets hit with a stick, loses EIGHT teeth, has an instant root canal in the locker room, comes back out and PLAYS and never says boo.

So new rule, NBA: Unless you have a root canal at halftime, SHUT UP AND PLAY!
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Old 09-10-2010, 09:55 AM    (permalink
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How is this even remotely considered a rebuttal????????
He thinks his delusional opinions can be taken as fact.
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Old 09-10-2010, 02:50 PM    (permalink
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Are you really trying to insinuate that playoff performance is irrelevant?
Irrelevant? no. WAY overstated and often grasping for straws by the people who constantly bring it up? Yes

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One thing that has always bothered me about that play is people's complete dismissal of Eli's part in it. No one ever talks about this guy escaping 3 people and buying time in order to make that throw, which was actually pretty damn accurate.
It was a great play on his part, no denial there. The problem is that he played like an elite QB for only those playoffs, culminating in that play. His over performance in those games is actually similar to the way the Colts D carried the Colts the year Peyton got his ring, but you don't see people still claiming the Colts D is great.

Quote:
insert "u mad" pic here. Once Ryan throws for 4000+ yards, 28 TDs with no defense, running game or proven weapons. Now give him fractures to both feet preventing him from planting and stepping into his throws for weeks. Get real, Eli's a top 10 Qb right now who's always been one of the best late game/half QBs in the league with ridiculous toughness and durability.
Ryan only has 2 years in the league, I wouldn't be surprised if he has a year or two like that at some point (though I'll certainly be rooting against it, as a Panthers fan). He also plays in a system that isn't conducive to putting up pretty numbers, much like Eli's offense early in his career and very unlike, say, Rodgers' offense. Not sure what having no defense has to do with it either, if anything that would make his numbers look better. As for top 10, I'll grant him that, but he's at the bottom. Ryan is just outside it, but again, younger. I actually do believe that Eli's upside is higher, and he seems to be taking steps to fill it, but career progression is not always a straight line. If I were listing QBs I'd probably make tiers, with Eli as the first QB in tier 3 (t1 would be Manning/Brees/Brady). Ryan would be in it, as would Flacco and maybe Carson Palmer. Speaking of career progression...
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Old 09-10-2010, 02:52 PM    (permalink
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At this point in their careers Matt Ryan is eerily similar to Eli Manning. Just 'sayin.
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Old 09-10-2010, 02:54 PM    (permalink
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I think Rivers december record is taken out of context.

You play the AFC West first and foremost, so that alone inflates the stats. Plus you're playing in nice weather, so again, it's easier.


Not to mention, his playoff success came against the Colts.

Colts in a dome, or at home in SD where the weather is great. So yeah, it's gonna be easier to be a december winner when much of what makes december difficult is negligible for you.
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Old 09-10-2010, 02:55 PM    (permalink
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At this point in their careers Matt Ryan is eerily similar to Eli Manning. Just 'sayin.
He is. Almost to a T. Eli throws a better deep ball and has a slightly bigger arm, that's pretty much the only difference I see in them.
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Old 09-10-2010, 03:01 PM    (permalink
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Hopefully Ryan keeps growing like Manning did.
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Old 09-10-2010, 03:02 PM    (permalink
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Irrelevant? no. WAY overstated and often grasping for straws by the people who constantly bring it up? Yes



It was a great play on his part, no denial there. The problem is that he played like an elite QB for only those playoffs, culminating in that play. His over performance in those games is actually similar to the way the Colts D carried the Colts the year Peyton got his ring, but you don't see people still claiming the Colts D is great.



Ryan only has 2 years in the league, I wouldn't be surprised if he has a year or two like that at some point (though I'll certainly be rooting against it, as a Panthers fan). He also plays in a system that isn't conducive to putting up pretty numbers, much like Eli's offense early in his career and very unlike, say, Rodgers' offense. Not sure what having no defense has to do with it either, if anything that would make his numbers look better. As for top 10, I'll grant him that, but he's at the bottom. Ryan is just outside it, but again, younger. I actually do believe that Eli's upside is higher, and he seems to be taking steps to fill it, but career progression is not always a straight line. If I were listing QBs I'd probably make tiers, with Eli as the first QB in tier 3 (t1 would be Manning/Brees/Brady). Ryan would be in it, as would Flacco and maybe Carson Palmer. Speaking of career progression...


I really hope you're not serious about Palmer, Flacco, and Ryan being in the same tier of QB as Eli Manning.
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Old 09-10-2010, 03:04 PM    (permalink
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He will. Bc everything I saw in Eli that made me believe he was a franchise qb, I see in Matt Ryan.

The work ethic, the intelligence, the ability to adjust protections and routes, the ability to motion players into the perfect spot to find the whole in coverage, the mental toughness, the leadership, the desire, everything.

There's so much more to being a qb than just raw statistics. Matt Ryan to Atlanta fans is what Eli Manning is to Giants fans. Fans outside the fanbase simply don't understand how much the player does for the team.

I admit, I wasn't a Ryan fan coming out, but when I saw him in the NFL, I realized I made a mistake. He's gonna be the real deal. Maybe not ever statistically, but I never cared about that.
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Old 09-10-2010, 04:08 PM    (permalink
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Wow, there are some crazy statements being thrown around here.
Rodgers is overrated due to fantasy? Why, because he put together the best statistical year last year? He did it with a crap offensive line for 8+ weeks and no elite receivers like Andre Johnson or Randy Moss. His 3rd down conversion percentage was off the charts and he very rarely turned the ball over, two factors that don't count for fantasy and barely count for fantasy, respectably.

Aaron Rodgers will never be elite? That post sounds like its 2-5 years old. He already is. He had a better first 2 seasons than any QB in history, ever. He doesn't even have any faults, except maybe holding the ball too long, which he pretty much fixed towards the end of last year. If any decent scout wrote a scouting report on him he would get + grades in every single category.

Dom Capers hasn't put together a good defense? Are you fking kidding me? He was so good at it he got 2 head coaching jobs even though he made a pretty garbage head coach.

Those are just some posts that stuck out and hit a nerve with me at how completely inaccurate they were...
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Old 09-10-2010, 04:21 PM    (permalink
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He is. Almost to a T. Eli throws a better deep ball and has a slightly bigger arm, that's pretty much the only difference I see in them.
Ryan's done far better in the mid-range passing game than Eli did at a similar point in his career, though. Part of that comes with playing in the dome vs. playing in the swirling winds of the Meadowlands.
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Old 09-10-2010, 04:31 PM    (permalink
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Ryan's done far better in the mid-range passing game than Eli did at a similar point in his career, though. Part of that comes with playing in the dome vs. playing in the swirling winds of the Meadowlands.
That and the offensive system. Eli would get ripped on by casual fans for "inaccurate" throws a lot in his early years, when in fact, it was more miscommunication between him and Shockey/Burress that lead to INTs.

It's no coincidence that his INT totals went down dramatically when those 2 left. We run a choice route offense, so if the WR and QB don't read the coverage the same way, it's gonna lead to what looks like an inaccurate throw or an INT.

What sticks out in many minds is the 4 INT game in 07 against the Vikings. Eli got KILLED for that game. But most of those picks were actually the fault of Burress and especially Shockey, running the wrong routes. But Eli never threw them under the bus, and took all the heat for it. He won over a lot of guys in the lockerroom with that.

Our offense is complex, it requires smart WRs. Its why a guy like Steve Smith can be so successful in our system despite a lack of athleticism. The Steve Smith's of the world were built for our offense.

I always wondered how good Eli could be in a simpler offense like a WCO where he didn't have to rely on WRs reading coverages. That's another reason why he won't put up great stats. Smart WRs are hard to find.
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Old 09-10-2010, 04:33 PM    (permalink
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That and the offensive system. Eli would get ripped on by casual fans for "inaccurate" throws a lot in his early years, when in fact, it was more miscommunication between him and Shockey/Burress that lead to INTs.

It's no coincidence that his INT totals went down dramatically when those 2 left. We run a choice route offense, so if the WR and QB don't read the coverage the same way, it's gonna lead to what looks like an inaccurate throw or an INT.

What sticks out in many minds is the 4 INT game in 07 against the Vikings. Eli got KILLED for that game. But most of those picks were actually the fault of Burress and especially Shockey, running the wrong routes. But Eli never threw them under the bus, and took all the heat for it. He won over a lot of guys in the lockerroom with that.

Our offense is complex, it requires smart WRs. Its why a guy like Steve Smith can be so successful in our system despite a lack of athleticism. The Steve Smith's of the world were built for our offense.

I always wondered how good Eli could be in a simpler offense like a WCO where he didn't have to rely on WRs reading coverages. That's another reason why he won't put up great stats. Smart WRs are hard to find.
Steve Smith reminds me so much of Keenan McCardell it's not even funny.

But you're right, Coughlin/Gilbride run one of the most complex offensive schemes in the NFL. People don't realize it because Coughlin likes to pound the rock, but his passing system is incredibly intricate.
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