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Old 10-20-2010, 06:30 PM    (permalink
SchizophrenicBatman
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Originally Posted by BlindSite View Post
Wow, the guys a bust after three games... Jesus you people make some laughable arguments sometimes.
How's that Alex Smith thing working out for you? Ready to give him another 6 years to destroy that franchise?
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Old 10-20-2010, 06:30 PM    (permalink
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I really don't understand why we are already calling him a bust this fast. I mean, come on guys, he hasn't even completed his first season and it's not like the Panthers are that great an offense.
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Old 10-20-2010, 06:33 PM    (permalink
SchizophrenicBatman
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Originally Posted by BeerBaron View Post
I argued this earlier in the thread. Throw Clausen to the wolves...see what he is made of. If he continues to fail, draft a new QB. Benching him only serves to keep him as a question mark...the next staff comes in, says "Jimmy Clausen is my QB" and then he fails...setting them back by at least another year when that year could have been spent developing a real franchise QB.
Here's the problem with this logic: John Fox doesnt give a F about the Panthers future. In fact, if he's coaching an NFC team next year he probably wants it to be as screwed up as possible

Also, I can guarantee we hire some ball-less patsy coach next year. No chance Marty Hurney's chosen QB doesn't get another shot. If no real coach will commit to him, he's going to bring in Charlie Weis
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Old 10-20-2010, 07:38 PM    (permalink
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I find it hard to evaluate rookie QBs to be honest. What they do as a rookie really means nothing, because the "best" rookie years you get for a QB is like Matt Ryan, where he's not totally incompetent.

They have to take huge leaps no matter where they are to be a better than average starter at the position. It's nice to see GROWTH early on, but meh, I like to see what kind of leap they make late into the season, and into their second year, because the first year, the most you can hope for is something like Bradford is doing, just taking what the D gives, and keeping his team on teh field enough for his playmakers to make plays.

Rarely do you get a very young QB come out and dominate, and a QBs first season(as a rookie really) doesn't give a strong indication of the future. If they've been sitting a few years, and then come in, you really like to see some true playmaking though.

I don't see a big correlation to a guys first year if he starts as a rookie, to how he'll fair down the road, it seems like a hard thing to project.

That said, I expected more of Clausen thus far.
A post I made in the Stafford vs Bradford thread:

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Originally Posted by yourfavestoner
Roethlisberger, Ryan, and Flacco have set the bar for rookies so unrealistically high now that it's hard for people to figure out what to look for in a rookie quarterback.

Expecting anything other than bad QB play from play to play (let alone game to game) is just downright unrealistic. They're going to be bad, they're going to be inconsistent, they will not string drives together, they will turn the ball over, they will get sacked. For the most part, they have no idea what the **** they're doing out there. You're looking far more for flashes of talent to show through, and observe how they handle the adversity of being really unsuccessful.
And this in my "Truths" thread:

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Originally Posted by yourfavestoner
I completely agree with this. Roethlisberger, Ryan, and Flacco have created unrealistic expectations for rookie quarterbacks in recent years. We've gotta temper the expectations back down.

Like you said, you're looking for flashes of potential. You cannot expect them to be consistent from game to game, series to series, or even from play to play. Also, the biggest thing you're looking at is how he's carrying himself. How is he dealing with being the worst player on the field? Is he letting go of his mistakes and focusing on the next throw?

You're not really looking for him to LEAD (but that doesn't hurt), but you need to make sure he's still exhibiting confidence in himself. If you get that out of your rookie quarterback, plus some flashes and key drives/moments mixed in there, you've quite possibly got yourself a keeper. The key is the development that occurs in years two and three.
That's a huge reason why I liked Josh Freeman so much coming into this season. Was the overall body of work good? No. He was terrible. But you definitely saw flashes of potential greatness with him last year.

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Old 10-20-2010, 07:48 PM    (permalink
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Here's the problem with this logic: John Fox doesnt give a F about the Panthers future. In fact, if he's coaching an NFC team next year he probably wants it to be as screwed up as possible

Also, I can guarantee we hire some ball-less patsy coach next year. No chance Marty Hurney's chosen QB doesn't get another shot. If no real coach will commit to him, he's going to bring in Charlie Weis
See, that's when ownership/management needs to step in and make something happen. If Fox doesn't like it, let him resign. It's a big reason why I don't JA traded for any offensive line talent or anything like that....Ownership might be looking to go a different direction, and they don't want him mortgaging a future he might not be there for.
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Old 10-20-2010, 08:57 PM    (permalink
SchizophrenicBatman
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A post I made in the Stafford vs Bradford thread:


That's a huge reason why I liked Josh Freeman so much coming into this season. Was the overall body of work good? No. He was terrible. But you definitely saw flashes of potential greatness with him last year.
This is the problem with Clausen, though. He hasn't shown any potential. No flashes. His one good play was a blown coverage where he didnt even have to make a good throw (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UElsAl_aqKA). But at least he stepped up in the pocket and found his open receiver on that play

I haven't seen one other play that suggests Clausen could be a good or even above average NFL QB. To be fair, I haven't seen enough to suggest he couldn't be either, because he doesn't even try. Honestly, throwing interceptions as a rookie isn't bad for the most part. I remember the game Freeman threw 5 picks against the Panthers last year. He was actually moving the ball, throwing down field and finding out what windows he could and could not throw into. The Bucs ended up losing because pretty much every time he got the ball into the red zone he gave it up, but he threw for over 300 yards and you could see potential there. Extremely raw potential that may or may not ever develop, but at least you saw something.

People always bring up Peyton throwing 28 interceptions his rookie year like he sucked besides that. No, he was an exceptionally advanced rookie having to adjust to a league well above his and his team's current ability where he was basically their entire offense (see: Bradford, Sam...even though honestly the Rams should have more of a running game with S-Jax, that's not how their coaching staff has played it). Clausen has only thrown 3 interceptions because he doesn't take risks. He doesn't try to play quarterback at an NFL level. He just looks for his underneath receiver (a la David Carr) or breaks the pocket (unnecessarily) so he can scramble and only have to look at one side of the field.

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Old 10-20-2010, 09:16 PM    (permalink
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I never liked Jimmy Clausen coming out specifically because he isn't really a leader. I read somewhere during the draft process when coaches were breaking down film with him, he "threw his WRs under the bus" on a few of his INTs. That was a huge flag right there because QBs, even when it isn't there fault, always take the blame on there shoulder.

He never seemed like he was a leader and really does seem like a "cocky douchebag." His attitude reminds me of Ryan Leaf, that is why he fell. Also, he wasn't really that good with all that talent around him. He broke out in his JR year, but looked lost and confused his freshman and sophomore years, when he was deemed a top notch QB prospect.

From watching him this year, he looks very average. His arm strength is above average at the NFL level, but he just doesn't have the look of a franchise QB. He hasn't shown any flashes of making NFL like throws and just looks to dump the ball off. Targets one side of the field and doesn't see the field very well.

If I am Carolina, I would just let him play out the rest of the year. Maybe he improves and maybe they find out if they have something in him, but honestly, I never liked him coming out and he just doesn't have the attitude to be a great QB.
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Old 10-20-2010, 09:24 PM    (permalink
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That's a huge reason why I liked Josh Freeman so much coming into this season. Was the overall body of work good? No. He was terrible. But you definitely saw flashes of potential greatness with him last year.
That's why I like Stafford so much. You watch sometimes and you're like, what the **** is he thinking? But since that Browns game I've been sold. It wasn't his numbers in that game, it was the way he led his team back, and then had the guts to go out there with a separated shoulder and throw the game winning TD. If he can get and stay healthy, he'll be great.
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Old 10-21-2010, 07:40 AM    (permalink
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This is the problem with Clausen, though. He hasn't shown any potential. No flashes. His one good play was a blown coverage where he didnt even have to make a good throw (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UElsAl_aqKA). But at least he stepped up in the pocket and found his open receiver on that play

I haven't seen one other play that suggests Clausen could be a good or even above average NFL QB. To be fair, I haven't seen enough to suggest he couldn't be either, because he doesn't even try. Honestly, throwing interceptions as a rookie isn't bad for the most part. I remember the game Freeman threw 5 picks against the Panthers last year. He was actually moving the ball, throwing down field and finding out what windows he could and could not throw into. The Bucs ended up losing because pretty much every time he got the ball into the red zone he gave it up, but he threw for over 300 yards and you could see potential there. Extremely raw potential that may or may not ever develop, but at least you saw something.

People always bring up Peyton throwing 28 interceptions his rookie year like he sucked besides that. No, he was an exceptionally advanced rookie having to adjust to a league well above his and his team's current ability where he was basically their entire offense (see: Bradford, Sam...even though honestly the Rams should have more of a running game with S-Jax, that's not how their coaching staff has played it). Clausen has only thrown 3 interceptions because he doesn't take risks. He doesn't try to play quarterback at an NFL level. He just looks for his underneath receiver (a la David Carr) or breaks the pocket (unnecessarily) so he can scramble and only have to look at one side of the field.
That's because he's playing it safe. With the way the D is playing he knows it'd be catastrophic for the offence to turn the ball over; limit the turnovers and the team is always in the game (unless they let Forte gash them for a billion yards on cutbacks of course). He's also preserving his life - he has absolutely no time to throw and nobody to throw to. His best receiver this year has been Gettis - a 6th round rookie. I think that just about says it all.

As he grows more comfortable with his supporting staff (what little there is) and the speed of the NFL I'm sure he'd start taking more chances. As it is we won't know because Fox has put back in the guy that has no future in Charlotte.

As for the high pick we're going to have this year. I'd hope they spend it on a DT, a CB, a WR or an OT.
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Old 10-25-2010, 03:11 AM    (permalink
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lol are you serious dude?

he played 3 games and lost all three because there was zero offense. the carolina offense scored 28 points combined in the 3 games he started. the defense is playing ok, not great. he is not playing for the 2000 Ravens (or even the 2008 Ravens) and in any case, the season is already in the tank. he should've been learning how to play QB in the NFL, not trying to avoid turning the ball over so we could attempt to win a punt off.

i hope they put clausen back in too, but not because I think it would be good for him. with the way the offense is currently constructed, it's simply not a good environment for someone who doesn't know what they're doing and learning on the fly. starting a rookie QB or a rookie WR(s) is already a bad situation. doing both is insane and not really productive for anyone involved.

i hope they put clausen back in because his play is consistent. consistently not good enough to win in today's NFL. i am tirelessly ill of going 7-9 under john fox. i don't think moore is capable of that with the hole we're in, but his poor man's jake delhomme routine is enough to pull off enough wins to ruin the pick. now that we've got a W and 0-16 is off the table, I'd put clausen back in and see if he can show anything. if not, he's back up material next year. if he turns into drew brees, whatever. as it stands, moore may actually be preserving clausen's future, since if he wins 5 or 6 games, there won't be any chance to bring in another "franchise" QB (and no, I don't want another reject that falls like jimmy). granted, the new coach will most likely bring in a veteran FA no matter what...unless he's charlie weis

the last few years have convinced me to never use a top 5 pick on anything but what you consider the 3 most important positions in the league are. in my opinion the top 2 are clear cut: QB and DE. After that, you throw in LT and it gets a bit blurry...CB? DT? whatever, point is the 49ers and Panthers have the two best young LBs in the league. what has it got them? 2 wins total (and one had to happen).

you can draft all the darrius heyward beys and michael crabtrees you want, it doesnt matter unless you got someone to throw to them. all this "safe" pick stuff is BS imo (Aaron Curry LOL). just take the guy at the most important position that you feel best about. if you hit, you're set. if you miss, whatever. you have just as good a shot to miss elsewhere. ****, sometimes even if you hit with one of the lesser positions, you're not really that much better off (Calvin Johnson, Vernon Davis)

i also don't really believe in picking for need. if you're bad enough to pick top five, you need help everywhere.
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Old 10-25-2010, 03:26 AM    (permalink
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That's why I like Stafford so much. You watch sometimes and you're like, what the **** is he thinking? But since that Browns game I've been sold. It wasn't his numbers in that game, it was the way he led his team back, and then had the guts to go out there with a separated shoulder and throw the game winning TD. If he can get and stay healthy, he'll be great.
Man that game sucked balls
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