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Old 10-04-2010, 05:25 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by hockey619 View Post
Every offense under martz has given up a ton of sacks and gotten the qb killed. i said it before this year, cutlers numbers will go up but martz could ruin his career as he already had a propensity for holding onto the ball and playing risky/aggressive as it was.

The bears have a bad o line, definitely one of the worst. But their coaching isnt doing anything to mask those problems either. In the end, i think it costs them all their jobs.
Actually, through the first 3 weeks, I was really impressed at how Martz and Cutler adjusted to the pass rush. In each game, the other teams got after Cutler early and picked up some sacks.

But Martz adjusted to shorter drops and Cutler began getting rid of the football much quicker or rolling out to escape pressure. That didn't happen this week, and I believe the stories about him suffering a concussion early in that game leading to his sluggishness the rest of it to be true.
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Old 10-04-2010, 05:28 PM    (permalink
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Old 10-04-2010, 05:38 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by hockey619 View Post
Every offense under martz has given up a ton of sacks and gotten the qb killed. i said it before this year, cutlers numbers will go up but martz could ruin his career as he already had a propensity for holding onto the ball and playing risky/aggressive as it was.

The bears have a bad o line, definitely one of the worst. But their coaching isnt doing anything to mask those problems either. In the end, i think it costs them all their jobs.
Except the first 3 games of the year the Bears were running a lot more short drops than they did last year under Ron Turner...
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Most misleading 10+ sack season EVER.
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Old 10-04-2010, 05:48 PM    (permalink
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Actually, through the first 3 weeks, I was really impressed at how Martz and Cutler adjusted to the pass rush. In each game, the other teams got after Cutler early and picked up some sacks.

But Martz adjusted to shorter drops and Cutler began getting rid of the football much quicker or rolling out to escape pressure. That didn't happen this week, and I believe the stories about him suffering a concussion early in that game leading to his sluggishness the rest of it to be true.
Last night was my first taste of the Bears this year, didnt see any games before then.

So you think Cutler suffered his concussion before the Aaron Ross sack on the second to last play of the half (or that he suffered two, one early and then that one)? Idk ESPN has been saying it happened during the Ross sack but I could see it being earlier than that who knows really, just wondering why you think that.

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Except the first 3 games of the year the Bears were running a lot more short drops than they did last year under Ron Turner...

Was Martz the one concussed last night then?

Because thats the only Bears game Ive seen and the complete *** whooping he let Cutler take is the only time Ive seen them play. If he could make the playcalling adjustments before, why couldnt he last night? His system is aggressive with a lot of deep drops so unless that changed early this year than that is incorrect because he has a history of getting guys killed (Trent Green, Warner, Bulger, Smith last year, Cutler last game). This is a pretty clear pattern that the O-coordinator has some kinks to work out.
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Old 10-04-2010, 05:54 PM    (permalink
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Here's the main offensive line stats, sorted by sacks and another sorted by average

Code:
 Rank        Team        Sacks  QB Hits   |   Rank        Team         Att    Yds     Avg    TDs  
  1   Dallas Cowboys       1       14     |     1  Houston Texans      124    688     5.5     5   
  2   Kansas City Chiefs   2       11     |     2  Philadelphia Eagle  95     527     5.5     5   
  3   New England Patrio   2       6      |     3  Arizona Cardinals   74     396     5.4     2   
  4   Baltimore Ravens     4       17     |     4  New York Jets       131    671     5.1     3   
  5   Indianapolis Colts   4       16     |     5  Minnesota Vikings   86     430      5      3   
  6   Cleveland Browns     4       10     |     6  Buffalo Bills       89     422     4.7     1   
  7   Green Bay Packers    5       10     |     7  New York Giants     113    534     4.7     4   
  8   New York Jets        5       8      |     8  Kansas City Chiefs  104    482     4.6     2   
  9   Minnesota Vikings    6       15     |     9  New England Patrio  81     370     4.6     2   
  10  Washington Redskin   6       13     |    10  Oakland Raiders     124    560     4.5     2   
  11  Cincinnati Bengals   7       25     |    11  San Diego Chargers  118    529     4.5     4   
  12  New Orleans Saints   7       11     |    12  Tennessee Titans    124    533     4.3     5   
  13  Tampa Bay Buccanee   7       12     |    13  Pittsburgh Steeler  123    534     4.3     4   
  14  Miami Dolphins       7       16     |    14  Washington Redskin  92     392     4.3     3   
  15  Atlanta Falcons      8       12     |    15  Cleveland Browns    113    466     4.1     4   
  16  Detroit Lions        8       21     |    16  Jacksonville Jagua  125    518     4.1     2   
 Rank        Team        Sacks  QB Hits   |   Rank        Team         Att    Yds     Avg    TDs  
  17  San Francisco 49er   8       26     |    17  Carolina Panthers   104    413      4      2   
  18  San Diego Chargers   8       16     |    18  Atlanta Falcons     149    579     3.9     3   
  19  New York Giants      9       22     |    19  Green Bay Packers   96     378     3.9     4   
  20  Pittsburgh Steeler   9       14     |    20  Miami Dolphins      88     336     3.8     1   
  21  Tennessee Titans     9       11     |    21  San Francisco 49er  83     315     3.8     2   
  22  Seattle Seahawks     9       14     |    22  Detroit Lions       87     321     3.7     4   
  23  Jacksonville Jagua   10      21     |    23  Seattle Seahawks    88     318     3.6     2   
  24  St. Louis Rams       10      21     |    24  Dallas Cowboys      69     240     3.5     1   
  25  Buffalo Bills        11      28     |    25  St. Louis Rams      110    381     3.5     2   
  26  Denver Broncos       11      22     |    26  Tampa Bay Buccanee  85     289     3.4     1   
  27  Houston Texans       11      17     |    27  Chicago Bears       84     275     3.3     0   
  28  Carolina Panthers    12      25     |    28  Cincinnati Bengals  111    368     3.3     2   
  29  Oakland Raiders      13      20     |    29  Indianapolis Colts  94     302     3.2     3   
  30  Arizona Cardinals    15      26     |    30  New Orleans Saints  94     293     3.1     1   
  31  Philadelphia Eagle   15      28     |    31  Baltimore Ravens    112    337      3      2   
  32  Chicago Bears        18      31     |    32  Denver Broncos      101    220     2.2     3
New England Patriots are most impressive from this data. 2 sacks, 6 hits, 4.6 YPC even though they haven't run the ball much, a mediocre schedule.
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Old 10-04-2010, 05:56 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by hockey619 View Post
Last night was my first taste of the Bears this year, didnt see any games before then.

So you think Cutler suffered his concussion before the Aaron Ross sack on the second to last play of the half (or that he suffered two, one early and then that one)? Idk ESPN has been saying it happened during the Ross sack but I could see it being earlier than that who knows really, just wondering why you think that.




Was Martz the one concussed last night then?

Because thats the only Bears game Ive seen and the complete *** whooping he let Cutler take is the only time Ive seen them play. If he could make the playcalling adjustments before, why couldnt he last night? His system is aggressive with a lot of deep drops so unless that changed early this year than that is incorrect because he has a history of getting guys killed (Trent Green, Warner, Bulger, Smith last year, Cutler last game). This is a pretty clear pattern that the O-coordinator has some kinks to work out.
Martz is the M. Night Shyamalan of the NFL. Good, promising movies early in his career, then put out a slew of abortions, yet somehow keeps getting people to come watch his movies thinking "this is gonna be the one that springs him back to the top!" And it inevitably sucks worse than the last one.

Bears have three wins right now completely because of their defense. I don't care what's going on in the secondary, the front seven is healthy and that makes that D elite.
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Old 10-04-2010, 05:59 PM    (permalink
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Except the first 3 games of the year the Bears were running a lot more short drops than they did last year under Ron Turner...

And again not having seen a lot:

Sacks taken:
2009 first three games: 6
2010: 8, four against the brutal pass rush of....The Detroit Lions. Yeah.
(chose not to include game 4 because the 9 sack game obviously would skew it in my favor, trying to be fair)

Dropbacks/sack 2009= 17ish drop backs to 1 sack through first three games
2010: 11 drop back to 1 sack (not including the Giants game again.)

So, although i havent actually seen it with my eyes, it would appear that the 'lot more short drops than last year' may not be accurate. then again very small sample but its what we got.

But from what I did see that sack number couldve been even higher because he got away a few times against the Giants.

I know stats arent everything, but they seem to show Martz is still the same guy hes been for over a decade. and really, i didnt see any reason to believe he'll change his stubborn ways anytime soon.
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Old 10-04-2010, 06:02 PM    (permalink
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Default Chargers and more...

Yeah the Chargers are beasting it, and we are not even 100 % right now.
I have harped before about our O-Line play and their was some definite uncertainty at the start of the season with our unit. McNeill held out (until last week, but still hasn't suited up) and we were paper thin on depth.

Dumbo has taken over McNeill's spot and frankly has done a great job. I hope he is retained and rewarded, and his play is increasingly better each week. He is young and still makes mistakes, but unlike McNeill an actually run block. Clary on the other side is still sort of the inconsistent weak link of the starters. He shows flashes, but then will proceed to have his off games. I think if we do retain McNeill long term, maybe he could swap to the Right Side (but I doubt it because Dumbo is a better grader, and most likely will be kicked back over to his natural side).

Dielman and Hardwick are enigmas. Both are Pro Bowlers, Dielman is our most solid lineman, but has had his share of bad games. Hardwick-I love the guy, but the injury bug is catching up, and he struggles with big NT's (which he faces a lot). Vasquez is in his second year and is playing well, no concerns here.

Only real problem with our line as a unit is they suck as run blocking. Under Marty that is what we excelled at, granted we had guys that were nasty and played smash mouth football instead of the finesse game we play now. Mike Goff, Olivea, and even Fonoti opened big holes back in the day, but Goff aged, Olivea is out of the league, and Fonoti out ate himself.

If we can get that intensity back I will be a happy man.

I like what Houstons O line is doing, lots of smaller name, but the ZBS kills
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Old 10-04-2010, 06:02 PM    (permalink
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Martz is the M. Night Shyamalan of the NFL. Good, promising movies early in his career, then put out a slew of abortions, yet somehow keeps getting people to come watch his movies thinking "this is gonna be the one that springs him back to the top!" And it inevitably sucks worse than the last one.

Bears have three wins right now completely because of their defense. I don't care what's going on in the secondary, the front seven is healthy and that makes that D elite.

Very true. As the numbers showed last night when they put them up on SNF, the offenses under Martz have improved at a declining rate at each place hes gone, which leads me to believe without great personel, he aint that great. Gee, who'da thunk it.
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Old 10-04-2010, 06:16 PM    (permalink
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I definitely wouldn't go that far, but as I said earlier they're getting more crap than they deserve because of the start of last season.
They are doing well, serviceable. Averaging just under 4 YPC with John Kuhn and Brandon Jackson is good. Aaron Rodgers is on pace for only 20 sacks and he's getting hit 2.5 times a game, which is great. I have to downgrade them for penalties - they traded a sack for a hold a couple times - and running on first down - with our passing game we should be able to open holes on 1st and 2nd down. Hey, at least it's setting up play action pretty well, which is its primary function anyway.
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Old 10-04-2010, 06:16 PM    (permalink
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New England Patriots are most impressive from this data. 2 sacks, 6 hits, 4.6 YPC even though they haven't run the ball much, a mediocre schedule.
Those stats shows how good Orton is playing right now. He has the worst run game in the nfl (by a loooooooong way), the 26th ranked line in protecting him, but leads the league in passing yards.
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Old 10-04-2010, 06:30 PM    (permalink
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Last night was my first taste of the Bears this year, didnt see any games before then.

So you think Cutler suffered his concussion before the Aaron Ross sack on the second to last play of the half (or that he suffered two, one early and then that one)? Idk ESPN has been saying it happened during the Ross sack but I could see it being earlier than that who knows really, just wondering why you think that.
I pointed out in an earlier post that you don't necessarily have to whack your head off of something to get a concussion. Just a blind side hit or something along those lines can really rock your brain around in your head.

If he didn't have one before, then the Ross hit for sure gave it to him. But I really do believe something was wrong with him much earlier in that game and that led to more sacks, being less able to elude rushers, holding onto the ball even when shorter drops were called, etc. And then the Ross hit just finished him off.
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Old 10-04-2010, 06:55 PM    (permalink
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I'm really disappointed in the Titans. I thought adding Leroy Harris at LG and putting Amano at C would've improved them, but it looks like they're actually declined. I dunno if they miss Mawae, Amano isn't handling C well or Harris isn't as good as I thought he'd be, or if they're just taking a while to gel.

We'll see though. They've been too good of a unit to struggle, and Mike Munchak is too good of a coach to let them underachieve for long.
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Old 10-04-2010, 06:56 PM    (permalink
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I'm really disappointed in the Titans. I thought adding Leroy Harris at LG and putting Amano at C would've improved them, but it looks like they're actually declined. I dunno if they miss Mawae, Amano isn't handling C well or Harris isn't as good as I thought he'd be, or if they're just taking a while to gel.

We'll see though. They've been too good of a unit to struggle, and Mike Munchak is too good of a coach to let them underachieve for long.
O-lines are typically something that struggles early in the year and gels later if they get to stick together.
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Old 10-04-2010, 07:23 PM    (permalink
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When you lose a line general like Mawae, it will affect everything. It's probably the main reason the Pats haven't replaced Dan Koppen. Dude is just the best OL director in the NFL... He gets eaten alive by NTs, but his ability to direct his linemates more than makes of for his deficiencies.
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Old 10-04-2010, 07:33 PM    (permalink
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Given that the pats are playing without two of their starters and a few new guys, the line has looked very solid.
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Old 10-04-2010, 08:10 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by BeerBaron View Post
O-lines are typically something that struggles early in the year and gels later if they get to stick together.
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When you lose a line general like Mawae, it will affect everything. It's probably the main reason the Pats haven't replaced Dan Koppen. Dude is just the best OL director in the NFL... He gets eaten alive by NTs, but his ability to direct his linemates more than makes of for his deficiencies.
If it doesn't clear up, mark Center as the #1 need for the Titans.

That, or switching Harris to C (He can play any position. Dude's a beast), and put Amano at G. Amano may be better at pulling, and was part of a lot of big plays last year. Jake Scott is old and lacks athleticism. Harris can go toe-to-toe with massive DL's too (single handedly held Haloti Ngata in check as a rookie when he had to start at C for the '08 playoff game).

It's not like they haven't faced good DL's though. The Steelers and the Giants are no joke. They easily handled the Raiders. I'm not sure where the Broncos rank, but they struggled running the ball against them. Cowboys will be another tough one.

Pass-protection has been pretty good, to be honest. It's running the ball that's the issue. But I don't think CJ has really been giving his all, to be honest.
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Old 10-04-2010, 10:33 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by umphrey View Post
Here's the main offensive line stats, sorted by sacks and another sorted by average

Code:
 Rank        Team        Sacks  QB Hits   |   Rank        Team         Att    Yds     Avg    TDs  
  1   Dallas Cowboys       1       14     |     1  Houston Texans      124    688     5.5     5   
  2   Kansas City Chiefs   2       11     |     2  Philadelphia Eagle  95     527     5.5     5   
  3   New England Patrio   2       6      |     3  Arizona Cardinals   74     396     5.4     2   
  4   Baltimore Ravens     4       17     |     4  New York Jets       131    671     5.1     3   
  5   Indianapolis Colts   4       16     |     5  Minnesota Vikings   86     430      5      3   
  6   Cleveland Browns     4       10     |     6  Buffalo Bills       89     422     4.7     1   
  7   Green Bay Packers    5       10     |     7  New York Giants     113    534     4.7     4   
  8   New York Jets        5       8      |     8  Kansas City Chiefs  104    482     4.6     2   
  9   Minnesota Vikings    6       15     |     9  New England Patrio  81     370     4.6     2   
  10  Washington Redskin   6       13     |    10  Oakland Raiders     124    560     4.5     2   
  11  Cincinnati Bengals   7       25     |    11  San Diego Chargers  118    529     4.5     4   
  12  New Orleans Saints   7       11     |    12  Tennessee Titans    124    533     4.3     5   
  13  Tampa Bay Buccanee   7       12     |    13  Pittsburgh Steeler  123    534     4.3     4   
  14  Miami Dolphins       7       16     |    14  Washington Redskin  92     392     4.3     3   
  15  Atlanta Falcons      8       12     |    15  Cleveland Browns    113    466     4.1     4   
  16  Detroit Lions        8       21     |    16  Jacksonville Jagua  125    518     4.1     2   
 Rank        Team        Sacks  QB Hits   |   Rank        Team         Att    Yds     Avg    TDs  
  17  San Francisco 49er   8       26     |    17  Carolina Panthers   104    413      4      2   
  18  San Diego Chargers   8       16     |    18  Atlanta Falcons     149    579     3.9     3   
  19  New York Giants      9       22     |    19  Green Bay Packers   96     378     3.9     4   
  20  Pittsburgh Steeler   9       14     |    20  Miami Dolphins      88     336     3.8     1   
  21  Tennessee Titans     9       11     |    21  San Francisco 49er  83     315     3.8     2   
  22  Seattle Seahawks     9       14     |    22  Detroit Lions       87     321     3.7     4   
  23  Jacksonville Jagua   10      21     |    23  Seattle Seahawks    88     318     3.6     2   
  24  St. Louis Rams       10      21     |    24  Dallas Cowboys      69     240     3.5     1   
  25  Buffalo Bills        11      28     |    25  St. Louis Rams      110    381     3.5     2   
  26  Denver Broncos       11      22     |    26  Tampa Bay Buccanee  85     289     3.4     1   
  27  Houston Texans       11      17     |    27  Chicago Bears       84     275     3.3     0   
  28  Carolina Panthers    12      25     |    28  Cincinnati Bengals  111    368     3.3     2   
  29  Oakland Raiders      13      20     |    29  Indianapolis Colts  94     302     3.2     3   
  30  Arizona Cardinals    15      26     |    30  New Orleans Saints  94     293     3.1     1   
  31  Philadelphia Eagle   15      28     |    31  Baltimore Ravens    112    337      3      2   
  32  Chicago Bears        18      31     |    32  Denver Broncos      101    220     2.2     3
New England Patriots are most impressive from this data. 2 sacks, 6 hits, 4.6 YPC even though they haven't run the ball much, a mediocre schedule.
Where did you get this?
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Old 10-04-2010, 10:35 PM    (permalink
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The data is from NFL.com and I organized it in a spreadsheet.
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Old 10-04-2010, 10:38 PM    (permalink
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Hooray the Chiefs line doesn't suck!
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Old 10-04-2010, 11:25 PM    (permalink
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im surprised the Lions' pass blocking is that high up. Theyre also 2nd in the NFL in sacks. Usually thats the formula to winning games, solid O-line and solid D-line.. Hmm yet they're 0-4. Well 1-3 because the refs stole the game from them in Chicago. CURSED
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Old 10-04-2010, 11:46 PM    (permalink
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Hooray the Chiefs line doesn't suck!
The improvement has been noticeable, but I didn't really expect it to be that much. A lot of credit to Barry Richardson for filing into RT.
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Old 10-04-2010, 11:52 PM    (permalink
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It is because Bulaga the Chiefs dont suck
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Old 10-05-2010, 12:23 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by bigbluedefense View Post
Let's try to name off all the good olines in the league right now.

Baltimore
Cleveland
Miami
NYJ

I know those 4 for sure are great^

What about SD? They look pretty decent, but I wouldn't call them elite, and they can't run block either.

Tennessee took a step back this year, so not them. I haven't seen enough of Cinncy to comment on them. Same for Pittsburgh.

I can't think of any other than those 4.
They can run block fine. Otherwise you're saying that Tolbert is the greatest RB in the NFL with over 6 ypc.
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Old 10-05-2010, 02:07 AM    (permalink
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Yeah the Chargers are beasting it, and we are not even 100 % right now.
I have harped before about our O-Line play and their was some definite uncertainty at the start of the season with our unit. McNeill held out (until last week, but still hasn't suited up) and we were paper thin on depth.

Dumbo has taken over McNeill's spot and frankly has done a great job. I hope he is retained and rewarded, and his play is increasingly better each week. He is young and still makes mistakes, but unlike McNeill an actually run block. Clary on the other side is still sort of the inconsistent weak link of the starters. He shows flashes, but then will proceed to have his off games. I think if we do retain McNeill long term, maybe he could swap to the Right Side (but I doubt it because Dumbo is a better grader, and most likely will be kicked back over to his natural side).

Dielman and Hardwick are enigmas. Both are Pro Bowlers, Dielman is our most solid lineman, but has had his share of bad games. Hardwick-I love the guy, but the injury bug is catching up, and he struggles with big NT's (which he faces a lot). Vasquez is in his second year and is playing well, no concerns here.

Only real problem with our line as a unit is they suck as run blocking. Under Marty that is what we excelled at, granted we had guys that were nasty and played smash mouth football instead of the finesse game we play now. Mike Goff, Olivea, and even Fonoti opened big holes back in the day, but Goff aged, Olivea is out of the league, and Fonoti out ate himself.

If we can get that intensity back I will be a happy man.

I like what Houstons O line is doing, lots of smaller name, but the ZBS kills
A few minor corrections. First, Clary isn't the weak link. That would be Hardwick. Second, Dombo's natural position is on the left side, not the right. Even the coaches admitted as much. We'll see what happens with McNeill back. Maybe Dombroski will move to RG again. Or maybe he's the future replacement for Dielman. Or maybe he'll continue playing at left tackle while McNeill is benched.
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