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Old 10-05-2010, 03:28 PM    (permalink
bored of education
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hyperbolized like Peyton Manning lol oh yfs your funny.


2. Ray Nitczee dude with the funny last name
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Old 10-05-2010, 03:36 PM    (permalink
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Old 10-05-2010, 03:42 PM    (permalink
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Old 10-05-2010, 03:45 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by yourfavestoner View Post
Hmm, very, very tough decision. For all the lauding Butkus (rightfully) receives, Ray Nitschke was just as dominating of a player in the same era. It's similar to Lambert and Gradashir in the 1970s, although Gradashir gets overlooked because of how pitifully average the Broncos were. It's still a similar 1a/1b dynamic, though.

And then there's same Sam Huff. Tom Landry created the 4-3 defense to feature Huff as a dominating MIKE backer, and he was one of the few people EVER to be able to slow Jim Brown down.

I need to mull this one for a bit.
There's going to be some damn good MLB's who are going to be left off this list.

All the guys you mentioned along with guys like Chuck Bednarik, Willie Lanier, Harry Carson, Nick Buoniconti and a few more HOFers too.
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Old 10-05-2010, 04:23 PM    (permalink
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Ray Lewis(7)
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mo drew gets about 16 touches a game on offense (on a good day), and will run circles around ray rice. rice has no speed, 2nd burst or agility. he's a strong midget. How can anyone be excited about that.
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Old 10-05-2010, 04:32 PM    (permalink
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Ray Lewis

I don't understand the competition.

He was the most athletic to play in a long time in a genetically enhanced age.
He was the most intelligent in an age where the game is at it's most intricately studied and designed.
He was the best leader in an age where showmanship is at it's highest.
Hes been top 3 in the league for 14? years. Fourfuckinteen.
He did it in multiple systems. Best 4-3 ILB and best 3-4 ILB.

I'm getting tired of typing. But name another aspect of the position to compare and Lewis was probably better at it.

Too much "cherish the old days" in these threads.
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Old 10-05-2010, 04:54 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by J52 View Post
Ray Lewis

I don't understand the competition.

He was the most athletic to play in a long time in a genetically enhanced age.
He was the most intelligent in an age where the game is at it's most intricately studied and designed.
He was the best leader in an age where showmanship is at it's highest.
Hes been top 3 in the league for 14? years. Fourfuckinteen.
He did it in multiple systems. Best 4-3 ILB and best 3-4 ILB.

I'm getting tired of typing. But name another aspect of the position to compare and Lewis was probably better at it.

Too much "cherish the old days" in these threads.
This is what I'm talking about.

He had a stretch in the middle of his career where he was injured as often as he played. And when he did play, he had become a compiler. He was a serviceable 3-4 linebacker and you saw the results: lots of injuries and major struggles against the run. He didn't go back to being great again until they stuck Ngata in front of him.

And I know, I know, he won a DPOTY in the 3-4. He made a lot of big plays, but he was still a liability against the run in that scheme. Outside of the 3-4 years he's had the luxury of having some pretty damn good run-topping defensive tackles to just let him run around from sideline unblocked and to defend against the pass.
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Old 10-05-2010, 04:56 PM    (permalink
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Willie Lanier
Him and Curly Culp are going to get some early calls i would think.
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Old 10-05-2010, 05:00 PM    (permalink
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Ray Lewis (9)
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Old 10-05-2010, 05:06 PM    (permalink
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This is what I'm talking about.

He had a stretch in the middle of his career where he was injured as often as he played. And when he did play, he had become a compiler. He was a serviceable 3-4 linebacker and you saw the results: lots of injuries and major struggles against the run. He didn't go back to being great again until they stuck Ngata in front of him.

And I know, I know, he won a DPOTY in the 3-4. He made a lot of big plays, but he was still a liability against the run in that scheme. Outside of the 3-4 years he's had the luxury of having some pretty damn good run-topping defensive tackles to just let him run around from sideline unblocked and to defend against the pass.
Well if you're going to hold that against Ray, you better factor that in when you're talking about Lambert.
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Old 10-05-2010, 05:20 PM    (permalink
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Ray Nitschke [4]
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Old 10-05-2010, 05:26 PM    (permalink
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This is what I'm talking about.

He had a stretch in the middle of his career where he was injured as often as he played. And when he did play, he had become a compiler. He was a serviceable 3-4 linebacker and you saw the results: lots of injuries and major struggles against the run. He didn't go back to being great again until they stuck Ngata in front of him.

And I know, I know, he won a DPOTY in the 3-4. He made a lot of big plays, but he was still a liability against the run in that scheme. Outside of the 3-4 years he's had the luxury of having some pretty damn good run-topping defensive tackles to just let him run around from sideline unblocked and to defend against the pass.
This is seriously one of the least true things I've ever seen on the internet.

I presume you're talking about 2002-2005. Yes, he was hurt for a lot of 2002 and 2005. In 2003, besides "making a lot of plays," the Ravens were 3rd in the NFL in yards-per-carry. In 2004, they were (tied for) 2nd. All this despite having a Kelly Gregg (320), Anthony Weaver (274), and Marques Douglas (290) in front of him.

There's really only one stat you need to know. Since 1999, the Ravens have placed the following in total defense:

2nd
2nd
2nd
22nd
3rd
6th
5th
1st
6th
2nd
3rd
2nd (through four games in 2010)

Only one player has been there through it all, except for 11 games in 2002 (you know, that 22nd) with what was the youngest team in NFL history at the time. Four coordinators (three of whom became head coaches), same result. My guess is that because he got his ass kicked by Will Shields in a single game in 2004, he was suddenly a "liability against the run."



And, Lewis (10).
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Old 10-05-2010, 09:48 PM    (permalink
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Old 10-06-2010, 10:31 AM    (permalink
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This is seriously one of the least true things I've ever seen on the internet.

I presume you're talking about 2002-2005. Yes, he was hurt for a lot of 2002 and 2005. In 2003, besides "making a lot of plays," the Ravens were 3rd in the NFL in yards-per-carry. In 2004, they were (tied for) 2nd. All this despite having a Kelly Gregg (320), Anthony Weaver (274), and Marques Douglas (290) in front of him.

There's really only one stat you need to know. Since 1999, the Ravens have placed the following in total defense:

2nd
2nd
2nd
22nd
3rd
6th
5th
1st
6th
2nd
3rd
2nd (through four games in 2010)

Only one player has been there through it all, except for 11 games in 2002 (you know, that 22nd) with what was the youngest team in NFL history at the time. Four coordinators (three of whom became head coaches), same result. My guess is that because he got his ass kicked by Will Shields in a single game in 2004, he was suddenly a "liability against the run."



And, Lewis (10).
My response was directed at Lewis as a player in the 3-4, not the entire defensive unit. I know what I saw with my eyes, and he wasn't the best 3-4 linebacker in the NFL. That's what the original argument was. He was a very nice playmaker in that scheme, but I know what I saw with my two eyes - he was too small to play in it and it led to injuries and struggles against the run.

And, really, who cares about the coaching tree stuff? Does the fact that Tony Dungy sprouted his own coaching tree of Tampa Two guys make Derrick Brooks the best OLB ever? I mean, that Bucs defense was damn good for a long time, right up there with the Ravens for that 90s-early 2000s. Or would the credit for that go to Jack Lambert, on whom the Noll (and subsequent Dungy) coaching tree was founded upon? What about Rex and Rob Ryan? Is Mike Singletary the reason for their success, since their dad coached them in Chicago? You can do that with just about any great player.

I'm not trying to knock on Ray Lewis, because I love him as a player. He's been one of my favorite players to watch ever. But he's definitely not a guy you casually dismiss all-time greats like Lambert and Singletary for, especially when you consider how much more brutal and physically demanding the era they played in was.

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Old 10-06-2010, 11:54 AM    (permalink
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My response was directed at Lewis as a player in the 3-4, not the entire defensive unit. I know what I saw with my eyes, and he wasn't the best 3-4 linebacker in the NFL. That's what the original argument was. He was a very nice playmaker in that scheme, but I know what I saw with my two eyes - he was too small to play in it and it led to injuries and struggles against the run.

And, really, who cares about the coaching tree stuff? Does the fact that Tony Dungy sprouted his own coaching tree of Tampa Two guys make Derrick Brooks the best OLB ever? I mean, that Bucs defense was damn good for a long time, right up there with the Ravens for that 90s-early 2000s. Or would the credit for that go to Jack Lambert, on whom the Noll (and subsequent Dungy) coaching tree was founded upon? What about Rex and Rob Ryan? Is Mike Singletary the reason for their success, since their dad coached them in Chicago? You can do that with just about any great player.

I'm not trying to knock on Ray Lewis, because I love him as a player. He's been one of my favorite players to watch ever. But he's definitely not a guy you casually dismiss all-time greats like Lambert and Singletary for, especially when you consider how much more brutal and physically demanding the era they played in was.
Who else was in the front-seven that allowed them to still be so stout against the run? Kelly Gregg is a pretty good player but never had the physical ability to be Jamal Williams or Ted Washington. The ends were both light guys who were decent players, but not guys who could keep blockers off the linebackers. Ed Hartwell played admirably for Lewis in 2002, but he wasn't much more than a grunt playing next to him. Pete Boulware was at the tail end of his career and constantly banged up. Terrell Suggs was still a situational pass rusher his first year in the league. Even the eighth guy in the box was just Will Demps. How did the Ravens manage to have such a good run defense?

I realize that the 2004 game against the Chiefs was very high-profile and caused a lot of people to declare the beginning of the end for Ray Lewis. But ultimately, it was an aberration directly caused by other Hall of Fame players.

I didn't bring up the coordinators to talk about the coaching tree. My point was that the Ravens have had a twelve year stretch of defensive excellence interrupted only when Lewis was out with injury. It's not some brilliant coordinator, because there have been four of them over that time. It's not some other player, because Lewis is the only one who has been there for the entire stretch. It's Lewis. And it's not just his physical play - he's the guy who tells everyone else where to go and what to do, because he watches so much film and has seen it all. I remember when Trevor Pryce first signed with the Ravens in 2006, he had always thought that Ray Lewis constantly calling out what plays the opposing offense was running was a myth. And then he played some games with the Ravens, and he couldn't believe his eyes.

But since you brought up the coaching tree, I do think there is some some relevance. Remember, it's not just three coordinators, it's also three of Lewis's position coaches. While it's only an unsubstantiated hypothetical, I don't think Marvin Lewis, Jack Del Rio, or Mike Nolan ever become head coaches if Ray Lewis didn't exist.
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Old 10-06-2010, 02:25 PM    (permalink
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is ray lewis even eligible? i'm pretty sure this is non-active players only...
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Old 10-06-2010, 02:37 PM    (permalink
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good point. from yfs's original rules (link in post 1), "No currently active players are eligible for vote."
hmmm......ok

I change my vote to Ray Nitschke (5).
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Old 10-06-2010, 02:52 PM    (permalink
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Old 10-06-2010, 02:55 PM    (permalink
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good point. from yfs's original rules (link in post 1), "No currently active players are eligible for vote."
I think that Ray should be eligible when you read the full post and reasoning

Quote:
No currently active players are eligible for vote. Positional rankings are fluid and vary from year to year with players, so it's silly to try and rank them from a historical perspective until we have a completed body of work to analyze.
I think we have a good body of work on Ray Lewis I doubt he lasts many more seasons. I think this rule was to stop picks like Patrick Willis and others who are currently in their prime.
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Old 10-06-2010, 03:04 PM    (permalink
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I don't particularly have a problem with Lewis being eligible. He's one of the few active players who deserves a top 10 spot for what he's already done. What we need to worry about is people who want to extrapolate players onto the list, but if people vote smart that won't happen.

In my opinion, LDT will deserve some votes for the RB list and there's a good chance that two active safeties will garner votes for that list, since this era places a higher value on the position than any era prior.

Not that this needs to be said, but Ray Lewis is not unequivocally better than guys like Lambert, Nitschke, Huff, Singletary, Lanier, etc. I have no problem with him as high #2, but don't act like it's a simple choice.

I toss a vote Nitschke's way (7).
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Old 10-06-2010, 04:34 PM    (permalink
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I don't have a problem with Ray Lewis being eligible for this. I don't think he's going to do anything over the rest of his career to change his career ranking. I wouldn't have personally voted for him for #2, but I can see an argument for it. I didn't end up voting for #2 because I think the #2-6 guys are pretty much interchangeable.

With that said, I'm going to suck it up and vote for one. I'll say Mike Singletary (4?) here.
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Old 10-06-2010, 05:31 PM    (permalink
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Ray is still building his case and the man simply wont slow down. Butkus is tough to argue with though. Im on my droid right now at a staff meeting.
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Old 10-06-2010, 05:42 PM    (permalink
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Singletary 3
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Old 10-06-2010, 08:01 PM    (permalink
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CC.SD View Post
Im on my droid right now at a staff meeting.
Ask them what they think. Should Ray be eligible?
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Old 10-07-2010, 02:06 PM    (permalink
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Active players I think should be included:

Favre
Peyton
Brady
TO
Moss
LDT
Tony G
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