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Old 10-12-2010, 12:22 PM    (permalink
bigbluedefense
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Wow. Sounds like our system was too basic.

I just assumed every HS system was basic like ours.
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Old 10-12-2010, 12:22 PM    (permalink
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That was just for high school, but the staff that I coached on had quite a few guys who had coached at smaller colleges. We ran a pretty complex 3-3-3 stack.

Obviously the higher level you go, the more information their is to process and the schemes get infinitely more complex. In the pros, the quality control guys probably make 10-15 different video cutups a week, just based on certain things like motion, personnel groupings, etc. I imagine the same basic process for breaking teams down stays relatively similar, though.

Another thing I forgot to mention is the playcalling for the first twenty or so plays vs the rest of the game. Some teams, coaches, and quarterbacks are great for the first portion of the game, because they're running off a script and disregarding down and distance to eliminate their tendencies. Do they immediately revert back to their tendencies once their script is done? Does the QB lose or gain a feel for the game once he's off the script?

There's so much information to process it's insane.
Yeah just curious. That's usually the general way of doing it, and the higher you go the more information you need to break down film. Also, the higher you go, the more information is available due to better technology and people to give you whatever you need. For example, in the NFL coaches have access to whatever film they want going back however many years they want. The video guys do an incredible job in creating cut ups that are given to each position coach.

From there you can ask for almost anything.. Everytime, the defense gets flagged for offsides, I want a cut up. Ok, on 3rd down they blitz, give me a cut up of every single blitz on 3rd down. So a special dvd is made of that. So the access to information makes it easier to do your job.
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Old 10-12-2010, 12:25 PM    (permalink
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Wow. Sounds like our system was too basic.

I just assumed every HS system was basic like ours.
Haha bum! : P
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Old 10-12-2010, 12:25 PM    (permalink
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Yeah just curious. That's usually the general way of doing it, and the higher you go the more information you need to break down film. Also, the higher you go, the more information is available due to better technology and people to give you whatever you need. For example, in the NFL coaches have access to whatever film they want going back however many years they want. The video guys do an incredible job in creating cut ups that are given to each position coach.

From there you can ask for almost anything.. Everytime, the defense gets flagged for offsides, I want a cut up. Ok, on 3rd down they blitz, give me a cut up of every single blitz on 3rd down. So a special dvd is made of that. So the access to information makes it easier to do your job.
Yeah, having all that footage must be awesome, making the cut ups isn't that much work, as long as you label your clips well, but actually having that high angle footage is so key.
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Is Shaun Hill a top 10 QB? Definitely not. Is he a top 20 one? Almost certainly.
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Most misleading 10+ sack season EVER.
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Old 10-12-2010, 12:25 PM    (permalink
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Wow. Sounds like our system was too basic.

I just assumed every HS system was basic like ours.
Eh, basic is better at the high school level. I always felt like the offense at the school I coached at was perennial crappy because it was way too complicated for HS kids and we tried to do wayyyy too much. We spread ourselves way too thin and never spent the time to get GOOD at one particular thing. We had no identity and we were average in all facets. When you only have three hours of practice time a day and you're dealing with 16 year old kids, KISS.

I LOVED the offense at the school that I played at. Two formations: I pro and I twins. High diddle diddle, we're coming up the middle, try and stop us.

We had about seven running plays, and we could execute every single one of them perfectly against any front or blitz you could throw at us.
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Old 10-12-2010, 12:26 PM    (permalink
bigbluedefense
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Haha bum! : P
Haha. To be fair, my team was filled with idiots.

He just wanted a bunch of dudes who could run fast like Al Davis.
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Old 10-12-2010, 12:29 PM    (permalink
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Eh, basic is better at the high school level. I always felt like the offense at the school I coached at was perennial crappy because it was way too complicated for HS kids and we tried to do wayyyy too much. We spread ourselves way too thin and never spent the time to get GOOD at one particular thing. We had no identity and we were average in all facets. When you only have three hours of practice time a day and you're dealing with 16 year old kids, KISS.
Yeah, that's why I appreciated its simplicity. Honestly, most of my teammates were complete morons. We barely could run any zone bc guys just couldn't understand zone concepts.

We played fast though bc we knew our assignments and did what we had to do. If the other team was more athletic, so be it, they won. But we hung our hat on our speed overcoming any scheme issues.

Our offense was like 20 plays max.

He just wanted us perfecting technique, improving our athleticism, and hoped the repetition would let us perfect our technique within the system.
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Old 10-12-2010, 12:30 PM    (permalink
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Eh, basic is better at the high school level. I always felt like the offense at the school I coached at was perennial crappy because it was way too complicated for HS kids and we tried to do wayyyy too much. We spread ourselves way too thin and never spent the time to get GOOD at one particular thing. We had no identity and we were average in all facets. When you only have three hours of practice time a day and you're dealing with 16 year old kids, KISS.

I LOVED the offense at the school that I played at. Two formations: I pro and I twins. High diddle diddle, we're coming up the middle, try and stop us.

We had about seven running plays, and we could execute every single one of them perfectly against any front or blitz you could throw at us.
That's why I loved the way my school did it, on D our 5-2 was reasonably complex for a high school, we did a lot of blitzes, zone blitzes, stunts, twists and shifted our formation around the offense a lot, we moved guys around and did a lot of pre-snap motion to hide the blitzers and coverage, but on O we were a super simple option team, I'm pretty sure the option and FB traps were 70% of our offense. That let the guys focus on our somewhat complex D. With sweeps, 3 play action passes, a WR reverse and a WR reverse toss, one of our WRs was also the backup QB, filling out the final 30% that was our offense.
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JPP is a better and more productive player than Brandon Graham
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Is Shaun Hill a top 10 QB? Definitely not. Is he a top 20 one? Almost certainly.
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Most misleading 10+ sack season EVER.

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Old 10-12-2010, 12:31 PM    (permalink
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Yeah, having all that footage must be awesome, making the cut ups isn't that much work, as long as you label your clips well, but actually having that high angle footage is so key.
Actually it does, because first you have to "ODK" label your film, which is Offense, defense, special teams label it. So you have to plug in all that data and stuff. Then you have to sort by the parameters, AND then you can cut up that. And imagine doing that for ALL the games, even games that aren't your own, and then make one big cut up DVD out of it. That's why there are tons of tape decks, AND 3-4 guys working in the video room. Imagine doing that AND going to tape practice everyday, and then cutting up that for the coaches. So it really is a pain in the balls process.
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Old 10-12-2010, 12:34 PM    (permalink
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Just talking about it makes me miss it so much.

I just wish I could put the pads on and play again. If only they had a league for wannabe old timers like myself where you can play recreationally on a saturday or something, I'd join it in a heartbeat.
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Old 10-12-2010, 12:34 PM    (permalink
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Yeah, that's why I appreciated its simplicity. Honestly, most of my teammates were complete morons. We barely could run any zone bc guys just couldn't understand zone concepts.

We played fast though bc we knew our assignments and did what we had to do. If the other team was more athletic, so be it, they won. But we hung our hat on our speed overcoming any scheme issues.

Our offense was like 20 plays max.

He just wanted us perfecting technique, improving our athleticism, and hoped the repetition would let us perfect our technique within the system.
Some of the HSs do funny stuff. I worked at the HS I went to, and they didn't have enough offensive coaches in the booth. Also, they don't document plays during the game, which was VERY surprising. How do you know what play worked or doesn't work if you don't write it down? LOL. I took one good look at that and thought if I was on that staff I'd go crazy! I'd have to say something or I'd insane.
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Old 10-12-2010, 12:36 PM    (permalink
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Actually it does, because first you have to "ODK" label your film, which is Offense, defense, special teams label it. So you have to plug in all that data and stuff. Then you have to sort by the parameters, AND then you can cut up that. And imagine doing that for ALL the games, even games that aren't your own, and then make one big cut up DVD out of it. That's why there are tons of tape decks, AND 3-4 guys working in the video room. Imagine doing that AND going to tape practice everyday, and then cutting up that for the coaches. So it really is a pain in the balls process.
HD video my friend, no tapes needed anymore and life becomes a little simpler. You just cut each individual play into a separate clip, label it very thoroughly, let's say both teams, the down and distance, the score, the quarter, the play (run v pass, inside v outside, blitz v dropping back, etc.), which takes a lot of time, but it's busy work for the most part and not very thought intensive, then you just put together a group of clips based on what you need. Now don't get me wrong, editing is a tiring process but get some OCD mofos and stoners and you won't have a problem other than the time it'll take them to plow through the immense work load.
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JPP is a better and more productive player than Brandon Graham
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Originally Posted by abaddon41_80 View Post
Is Shaun Hill a top 10 QB? Definitely not. Is he a top 20 one? Almost certainly.
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Originally Posted by JBCX View Post
Most misleading 10+ sack season EVER.
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Old 10-12-2010, 12:43 PM    (permalink
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HD video my friend, no tapes needed anymore and life becomes a little simpler. You just cut each individual play into a separate clip, label it very thoroughly, let's say both teams, the down and distance, the score, the quarter, the play (run v pass, inside v outside, blitz v dropping back, etc.), which takes a lot of time, but it's busy work for the most part and not very thought intensive, then you just put together a group of clips based on what you need. Now don't get me wrong, editing is a tiring process but get some OCD mofos and stoners and you won't have a problem other than the time it'll take them to plow through the immense work load.
At the pro level they still have big tape decks running. The footage is still top notch, but they did have tape decks from what I remember seeing. Yeah if someone is quick at doing it, then I am sure they can hammer it out. I got to work with those guys for a week, and def. don't want that job. I was very slow at it, so eventually I typed in the info on excel, and they counted the penalties because they could use the buttons so much quicker.
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Old 10-12-2010, 01:15 PM    (permalink
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At the pro level they still have big tape decks running. The footage is still top notch, but they did have tape decks from what I remember seeing. Yeah if someone is quick at doing it, then I am sure they can hammer it out. I got to work with those guys for a week, and def. don't want that job. I was very slow at it, so eventually I typed in the info on excel, and they counted the penalties because they could use the buttons so much quicker.
Yeah, finalcut takes some getting used to, but once you've got the major short keys down it's pretty quick to pound out the clips, it's the proper naming that's going to be the hardest parts, especially since you're cutting plays so you have more room to make your cut and don't have to be as precise getting "the right frame". Again I'm not a big editting fan, I'm not bad at it and every now and then will have a lot of fun with it, but in general I'd agree that it's very tedious and long work that I'm not very fond of. What I'd do is just cut up every clip and put it in a bin based on the score at the time of the play. Then once I had cut each play into it's own little clip would I go through and copy and paste in as much as I could. It really comes down to organizing your clips and then labeling them efficiently.
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JPP is a better and more productive player than Brandon Graham
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Originally Posted by abaddon41_80 View Post
Is Shaun Hill a top 10 QB? Definitely not. Is he a top 20 one? Almost certainly.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JBCX View Post
Most misleading 10+ sack season EVER.
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Old 10-12-2010, 02:32 PM    (permalink
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Yeah, finalcut takes some getting used to, but once you've got the major short keys down it's pretty quick to pound out the clips, it's the proper naming that's going to be the hardest parts, especially since you're cutting plays so you have more room to make your cut and don't have to be as precise getting "the right frame". Again I'm not a big editting fan, I'm not bad at it and every now and then will have a lot of fun with it, but in general I'd agree that it's very tedious and long work that I'm not very fond of. What I'd do is just cut up every clip and put it in a bin based on the score at the time of the play. Then once I had cut each play into it's own little clip would I go through and copy and paste in as much as I could. It really comes down to organizing your clips and then labeling them efficiently.

I do this all for a smaller college and its a serious PITA. If you get the tape live captured it helps quite a bit (easy for games and clear days at practice) but if its raining you cant have the laptop outside so you have to replay the film after and put in the individual cuts. Then line up the cuts with their opposite angle shots and make sure they all line up and none are missing. Then you gotta lable down and distance (or drill), pass or run, and gain. after that itll fill in the new yard line (-20 if 80 yards from endzone, 20 if on the 20 going in). Then theirs a notes section where you can put in coverage and other things that youd like to divide by later.

I can fit it simply like that in a paragraph but in reality its incredibly tedious and time consuming, especially if thats all youre doing. I do my teams games and our opponents last three quality or common opponents. I dont do all of it everytime but it all gets done somewhere along the line, real pain in the butt.
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Old 10-12-2010, 02:38 PM    (permalink
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I do this all for a smaller college and its a serious PITA. If you get the tape live captured it helps quite a bit (easy for games and clear days at practice) but if its raining you cant have the laptop outside so you have to replay the film after and put in the individual cuts. Then line up the cuts with their opposite angle shots and make sure they all line up and none are missing. Then you gotta lable down and distance (or drill), pass or run, and gain. after that itll fill in the new yard line (-20 if 80 yards from endzone, 20 if on the 20 going in). Then theirs a notes section where you can put in coverage and other things that youd like to divide by later.

I can fit it simply like that in a paragraph but in reality its incredibly tedious and time consuming, especially if thats all youre doing. I do my teams games and our opponents last three quality or common opponents. I dont do all of it everytime but it all gets done somewhere along the line, real pain in the butt.
Definitely didn't mean to belittle the work you guys have to do. It's an incredible amount of time spent working behind a screen. There's what 70 plays for each team + special teams? Seperating, organizing and labeling 150+ clips per game is an incredible workload, but on a pro team where they've got numerous guys keeping running records for their team and their future opponents I don't think it would be nearly as bad as you've got it doing all of that yourself.

EDIT:
Lemme do some maths here, 15 games for your team and 120 total games for your opponents to potentially edit in any given season not counting preparation for the playoffs. So we're looking at up to 20,000+ clips a year if you broke up each opponent's every game before metting your team per year. And I haven't even accounted for the reverse angle, so double that total. That's a ****** serious workload for 17 weeks. Then an offseason and of updating your running database.
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Most misleading 10+ sack season EVER.

Last edited by Rosebud : 10-12-2010 at 02:48 PM.
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Old 10-12-2010, 02:48 PM    (permalink
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Definitely didn't mean to belittle the work you guys have to do. It's an incredible amount of time spent working behind a screen. There's what 70 plays for each team + special teams? Seperating, organizing and labeling 150+ clips per game is an incredible workload, but on a pro team where they've got numerous guys keeping running records for their team and their future opponents I don't think it would be nearly as bad as you've got it doing all of that yourself.
haha no its all good im just sayin, it drives you a little mad, so many little complicated pain in the *** things. With a bunch of people its not as bad though.
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Old 10-12-2010, 02:50 PM    (permalink
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Definitely didn't mean to belittle the work you guys have to do. It's an incredible amount of time spent working behind a screen. There's what 70 plays for each team + special teams? Seperating, organizing and labeling 150+ clips per game is an incredible workload, but on a pro team where they've got numerous guys keeping running records for their team and their future opponents I don't think it would be nearly as bad as you've got it doing all of that yourself.

EDIT:
Lemme do some maths here, 15 games for your team and 120 total games for your opponents to potentially edit in any given season not counting preparation for the playoffs. So we're looking at up to 20,000+ clips a year if you broke up each opponent's every game before metting your team per year. And I haven't even accounted for the reverse angle, so double that total. That's a ****** serious workload for 17 weeks. Then an offseason and of updating your running database.

no ones come up with that because its such a pain in the ass whod do it haha
its not really hard, just a lot.
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Old 10-12-2010, 03:35 PM    (permalink
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no ones come up with that because its such a pain in the ass whod do it haha
its not really hard, just a lot.
There's 256 games in any NFL season? 300+ per game, so we're talking about ~80,000 clips a year. If all you provided was an annual data dump to teams during the offseason you wouldn't really need more than 5-10 people actually doing the editting and you wouldn't need people to work through Preseason and Camp unless you also started breaking down practice footage.

Now if you were going to provide a weekly update of ~5,000 clips during full weeks that would mean hiring more people, but still not that many and I doubt it'd be as many as there are throughout the NFL working for individual teams right now. Just seems like you could get that massive amount of work that gets done anyway done more efficiently and pocket some solid coin from the NFL...Anyone know how much the high angle footage to NFL games costs and how I would go about making a friend who could get me access to it?
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Most misleading 10+ sack season EVER.
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Old 10-12-2010, 03:50 PM    (permalink
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.Anyone know how much the high angle footage to NFL games costs and how I would go about making a friend who could get me access to it?

I don't think you can buy coaches tape. You have to be part of a show that uses it, or analyst is my guess. Obviously if you work for a team, you get all access to the games, including pre season and past games. Plus they would have to give you consent because all that is property of the NFL, and so my guess is if they found out or what not, there would be big time legal ramifications.
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Old 10-26-2010, 02:34 PM    (permalink
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Thought this was interesting for all the Madden play callers we have on here.

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Chris from Jacksonville
As a Notre Dame fan, I complained about Charlie Weis' play-calling and lack of commitment to a balanced offensive attack. I never thought I'd see the day when Weis had an offense that ran the ball 40 times. Do coaches really change that much or is it entirely the personnel that sets the game plan?
Vic: Stunning, isn’t it? These coaches know football inside and out. They can give you any kind of offense or defense you want. I’ll never forget a late-season game in San Diego, which was piling up points under Don Coryell and Dan Fouts. Tom Moore was the offensive coordinator of a Steelers team that loved to run the traps and dominate time of possession. For this game, Chuck Noll told Moore to “give me one of those offenses,” meaning high-tempo, throw-it-around stuff, like the Chargers. That’s what Moore did for this game. The Steelers moved it up and down the field. The more they scored, the more San Diego scored. Final score, San Diego 54, Steelers 44. After the game, we asked Noll how he liked his new, high-tempo offense. “Never again,” he said. Weis, like Moore, can give you any kind of offense you want. Todd Haley said, “Run it.” That’s what Weis did.
http://jaguars.com/news/article.aspx?id=9419
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Thought this was interesting for all the Madden play callers we have on here.



http://jaguars.com/news/article.aspx?id=9419
Great blurb. That's the reality of the situation. You can take the time to create a game plan with your offensive coaches, and then implement that on your call sheet. You can even have a script laid out to open the game. However, if the HC wants to do something that's different than you have to do it. He may call a specific play on the call sheet or just say run the ball here, in which case if you were planning on throwing, you have to pick a running play.

I remember the OC used to get annoyed at times, when he would think ahead at the sequence of plays he wanted to call only for the HC to want him to do something else. It's annoying, but the HC is the boss. Gotta do what he wants.
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